Should a high quality very costly bike be based upon ability? Not cash in hand?
06-16-13, 05:04 PM
#252
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No, I get that. I mean, I like nice things, too- which is why I have a few nice bikes instead of a department store bike. But IMO, there comes a point (in any hobby) where the level of equipment loses all proportion; to where you have amateurs using stuff which is "better" than what the pros use. Of course, in many sports, such as cycling, the pros are sponsored and given certain equipment to use- not necessarily because it's better, but to create a demand for it among amateurs who want to be like the pros. Yet, I'll bet if one were to inquire as to what bikes these pros owned that they bought with their own money, and which they ride on their own time, one would be quite surprised. I'll bet they aren't the latest state-of-the-art techno-gimmick "velo-systems".
I was into art when I was younger. I never felt a need to buy an $800 sable brush. One can paint with no limitations with an $80 brush. The pros don't even use $800 brushes; only art students and wannabes do.
IMO, the "best" is something that has a look and feel which is pleasing and of quality; is durable; and which performs well enough so that it does not limit one's performance. I believe that one can achieve those things easily without getting near the uber-expensive category. It seems to me that when people get up into that category, that they are seeking something beyond the benefits that the equipment can offer relative to their participation in the sport or hobby.
I was into art when I was younger. I never felt a need to buy an $800 sable brush. One can paint with no limitations with an $80 brush. The pros don't even use $800 brushes; only art students and wannabes do.
IMO, the "best" is something that has a look and feel which is pleasing and of quality; is durable; and which performs well enough so that it does not limit one's performance. I believe that one can achieve those things easily without getting near the uber-expensive category. It seems to me that when people get up into that category, that they are seeking something beyond the benefits that the equipment can offer relative to their participation in the sport or hobby.
06-16-13, 05:19 PM
#253
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06-16-13, 05:29 PM
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You're envious, not jealous. (common mistake)
Maybe the UCI can set up qualifying time trials. Based on your time, you qualify for a bike of a certain cost.
For instance, sub 50 minute 40 k, no limit.
50 - 54 min, up to $6000
55-59 up to $5000
1 hr - 1:04 up to $4000
Etc
I should be riding a Huffy
Maybe the UCI can set up qualifying time trials. Based on your time, you qualify for a bike of a certain cost.
For instance, sub 50 minute 40 k, no limit.
50 - 54 min, up to $6000
55-59 up to $5000
1 hr - 1:04 up to $4000
Etc
I should be riding a Huffy
06-16-13, 06:07 PM
#255
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Bingo. But this point will fly over the heads of those that put down people buying bikes that cost more than their own bikes. They ignore the people that suggest that a $1,000 or $2,500 bike is equally unnecessary, because they have found that that price level is necessary. It's all relative. Buy what you want and don't worry about what other people own. Funniest post on this thread is the "art hobby" comment about not needing an $800 sable brush as an $80 brush will do for him... fantastic irony.
It is similar with bikes, or anything else. There is a point below which you can not get quality (Regardless of whether one can afford to purchase at that point or not); and there is a point at which quality stops increasing, and you just get blue-sky or bling for any additional money you spend- like the A-rab sheik, at a certain point, you stop increasing quality and function, and the metric becomes just the fact that you own it/them and what it/they cost- but it becomes irrelevant as to whether you're riding in the $180K Bentley off the showroom floor, or the gold-plated custom-made Benz; or whether you're riding the $2K DA bike with allow wheels or the $12K Di2 bike with $2K CF wheels. Or whether your kid is playing hockey with a $20 wooden stick or a $300 CF stick......At a certain point, it ceases to be about the hobby/sport/function, and becomes some quest for something apart from those things.
06-16-13, 08:07 PM
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If you're racing, your equipment doesn't matter unless it breaks.
If you're not, you can assign any value to your bike stuff you like. If you like shiny things, buy 'em, nobody gives a crap so long as you can hold your line.
If you're not, you can assign any value to your bike stuff you like. If you like shiny things, buy 'em, nobody gives a crap so long as you can hold your line.
06-16-13, 09:08 PM
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So bling peeps can't buy bling bikes due to their noob status? So we limit them.
what happens if your awesomely awesome, but you gotsta barely money to fund milk for the kids? Is there a government fund to help us out?
what happens if your awesomely awesome, but you gotsta barely money to fund milk for the kids? Is there a government fund to help us out?
06-16-13, 09:43 PM
#258
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Your first sentence is way off base. There are many, many people driving $80,000 cars that certainly aren't worth anywhere near a million, much less a few. Just walk into a Mercedes or BMW dealer any weekend and see all the $80K vehicles going out the door. Even Chevy and Ford dealers have constant $60K vehicles sold.
06-16-13, 09:57 PM
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Your first sentence is way off base. There are many, many people driving $80,000 cars that certainly aren't worth anywhere near a million, much less a few. Just walk into a Mercedes or BMW dealer any weekend and see all the $80K vehicles going out the door. Even Chevy and Ford dealers have constant $60K vehicles sold.
06-17-13, 05:21 AM
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You say it's not cut & dried while completely ignoring my point. I'm not talking about whether someone "should" buy a $10k bike. That's an idiotic thing to even consider since there is no "should" when it comes to a person's spending. No one, outside of their immediate family, gets to decide what they "should" be buying. My point was that on the one hand you seem to think you know what the upper $ limit on a bike is, and in the same thread you discuss your need for $80 sable paint brushes and Citizen watches (because Timex is just too cheesy). Tell me, in the same vein as you comment about how a $10k bike delivers nothing more than a $2k bike (other than style), what exactly do you get from a Citizen watch that you don't get from a Timex? You're ignoring the irony of your own financial decisions while questioning the decisions of others.
Last edited by DaveWC; 06-17-13 at 07:10 AM.
06-17-13, 05:24 AM
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You think you have a point to make and you'll force it into every response whether it's applicable or not. You've found common ground with SolitaryRider in criticizing capitalistic, materialistic people while ignoring his own capitalistic, materialistic posts. When I point out the irony of his posts, you just plow ahead with your own talking points, logic be damned.
06-17-13, 05:41 AM
#262
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I was in a position to get some really nice stuff, without even realising how top-notch stuff it was. For me personally, it is better to start with lower quality, because you enjoy going up - as you improve and are able to exploit the advantages of improved equipment.
Sometimes you learn faster with slightly lower quality stuff. E.g. low quality shifters and derailleurs will teach you not to stomp on the pedals while downshifting, while if you ride top stuff, you might not learn so quickly (because it is for racing and you don't want to waste power while racing...).
There is also one more thing to consider: I'd never ride/use something so expensive for my income that I'm afraid to damage it through normaln use. I have a nice bike, but when going shopping, or to a pub, I always take the old ugly looking "mule", because I am relaxed when leaving the mule parked unattended, or if I crash it in the dark on some bad road.
And it is a bit funny when I see that a bike is a lot better than the rider. I don't think I'm jealous when saying that - my bike is nice... and a lot better than myself as a rider.
Sometimes you learn faster with slightly lower quality stuff. E.g. low quality shifters and derailleurs will teach you not to stomp on the pedals while downshifting, while if you ride top stuff, you might not learn so quickly (because it is for racing and you don't want to waste power while racing...).
There is also one more thing to consider: I'd never ride/use something so expensive for my income that I'm afraid to damage it through normaln use. I have a nice bike, but when going shopping, or to a pub, I always take the old ugly looking "mule", because I am relaxed when leaving the mule parked unattended, or if I crash it in the dark on some bad road.
And it is a bit funny when I see that a bike is a lot better than the rider. I don't think I'm jealous when saying that - my bike is nice... and a lot better than myself as a rider.
06-17-13, 07:07 AM
#263
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06-17-13, 07:34 AM
#264
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aOMG! What have I done.....a simple post became a sociological thesis. We all agree those who can do buy better stuff not much more than that. However, it does sux when you have a skill but cannot access the things that make you better. Carry one
06-17-13, 07:50 AM
#266
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Its boils down to this. You can buy whatever you want, its your money. But, if you have an expensive bike and you're a slow noob, some people might laugh at you - just like we laugh at the guy in the Ferrari who wrecks his car because he cant drive. Yeah, its a little jealousy, but its still funny.
BTW - I hate the phrase "Improve yourself" being associated with higher earning. Gaining a skill or going through the networking that can result in a higher income is not always an improvement. It also tends to reinforce the assumption many have that the rich have worked harder or are smarter than others who have less. I've met a lot of dumbass rich people in my life and some hard working poor people. Its kind of cliché, but the key is learning to be happy with what you have, or what you can afford. You can have a lot of fun on a $300 bike, or a $1000 bike, or a $10,000 bike.
BTW - I hate the phrase "Improve yourself" being associated with higher earning. Gaining a skill or going through the networking that can result in a higher income is not always an improvement. It also tends to reinforce the assumption many have that the rich have worked harder or are smarter than others who have less. I've met a lot of dumbass rich people in my life and some hard working poor people. Its kind of cliché, but the key is learning to be happy with what you have, or what you can afford. You can have a lot of fun on a $300 bike, or a $1000 bike, or a $10,000 bike.
06-17-13, 08:01 AM
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Worthiness is not based upon strengths in cyclings, it's based around the social order defined by your affluence. The dude on the C59 Italia Disk doesn't care that he's slower than you because he's going to drive home in his G-Series, park next to his Lambo and Ferrari, then go home to his super-model wife. He already won before you started caring about who rides what. No matter how fast you go, the guy on the expensive bike is always "better than you" in all aspects of life.
06-17-13, 08:06 AM
#268
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Songwriters: ANDERSSON, BENNY GORAN BROR / ULVAEUS, BJOERN K. / KOTLIAR, MARCELO
I work all night, I work all day, to pay the bills I have to pay
Ain't it sad
And still there never seems to be a single penny left for me
That's too bad
In my dreams I have a plan
If I got me a wealthy man
I wouldn't have to work at all, I'd fool around and have a ball...
Money, money, money
Must be funny
In the rich man's world
Money, money, money
Always sunny
In the rich man's world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It's a rich man's world
A man like that is hard to find but I can't get him off my mind
Ain't it sad
And if he happens to be free I bet he wouldn't fancy me
That's too bad
So I must leave, I'll have to go
To Las Vegas or Monaco
And win a fortune in a game, my life will never be the same...
Money, money, money
Must be funny
In the rich man's world
Money, money, money
Always sunny
In the rich man's world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It's a rich man's world
Money, money, money
Must be funny
In the rich man's world
Money, money, money
Always sunny
In the rich man's world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It's a rich man's world
It's a rich man's world
I work all night, I work all day, to pay the bills I have to pay
Ain't it sad
And still there never seems to be a single penny left for me
That's too bad
In my dreams I have a plan
If I got me a wealthy man
I wouldn't have to work at all, I'd fool around and have a ball...
Money, money, money
Must be funny
In the rich man's world
Money, money, money
Always sunny
In the rich man's world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It's a rich man's world
A man like that is hard to find but I can't get him off my mind
Ain't it sad
And if he happens to be free I bet he wouldn't fancy me
That's too bad
So I must leave, I'll have to go
To Las Vegas or Monaco
And win a fortune in a game, my life will never be the same...
Money, money, money
Must be funny
In the rich man's world
Money, money, money
Always sunny
In the rich man's world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It's a rich man's world
Money, money, money
Must be funny
In the rich man's world
Money, money, money
Always sunny
In the rich man's world
Aha-ahaaa
All the things I could do
If I had a little money
It's a rich man's world
It's a rich man's world
06-17-13, 08:08 AM
#269
Senior Member
Worthiness is not based upon strengths in cyclings, it's based around the social order defined by your affluence. The dude on the C59 Italia Disk doesn't care that he's slower than you because he's going to drive home in his G-Series, park next to his Lambo and Ferrari, then go home to his super-model wife. He already won before you started caring about who rides what. No matter how fast you go, the guy on the expensive bike is always "better than you" in all aspects of life.
__________________
Momento mori, amor fati.
Momento mori, amor fati.
06-17-13, 08:12 AM
#270
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06-17-13, 08:48 AM
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Pick your idiom. I will never buy the super-flashy stuff because I don't like wearing the target. I'm trying to justify spending money on a nicer bike, but can't find the utility in spending the money...yet.
06-17-13, 08:51 AM
#272
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You say it's not cut & dried while completely ignoring my point. I'm not talking about whether someone "should" buy a $10k bike. That's an idiotic thing to even consider since there is no "should" when it comes to a person's spending. No one, outside of their immediate family, gets to decide what they "should" be buying. My point was that on the one hand you seem to think you know what the upper $ limit on a bike is, and in the same thread you discuss your need for $80 sable paint brushes and Citizen watches (because Timex is just too cheesy). Tell me, in the same vein as you comment about how a $10k bike delivers nothing more than a $2k bike (other than style), what exactly do you get from a Citizen watch that you don't get from a Timex? You're ignoring the irony of your own financial decisions while questioning the decisions of others.
) $100 is not a huge sum of money- especially for something that will last many years; for somethinjg that will out-last the Timex. And in my case, I have an "Eco-Drive" in which the battery is recharged by the sun, so, so far, in 6 years of ownership, I have never had to replace a battery- not bad for a $99 watch! Now on the other hand, how much benefit and value would I get if I were to buy a $10K bike, over what I already have in a used Ultegra bike which cost me $700? I love my Ultegra bike, but really, it's not like it's night anjd day above my first entry-level bike. The differences are subtle. I would have felt like I wasted a lot of money had I bought the Ultegra bike brand new for the $3000 it cost then. The difference in the bikes, which just amounts to "feel", is not worth a few thousand dollars.
I think the only "benefit" to a $10K bike, is that you know what all the carbon high-tech and electronic gimmickry is supposed to do for you, and therefor you say "It's the best"; but if you didn't know that, you likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference between that bike and one that cost a quarter as much.
Another thing I've noticed, is that many of the people with these super-expensive bikes, never seem to keep them long. A year or two, and then they're buying a newer one. Why, if they're so great? It's the mindset! Newest; latest; greatest; Can't be seen on an old bike, 'cause a 7 year-old Venge is like a 7 year-old Cadillac and won't impress anyone.
06-17-13, 08:58 AM
#273
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I just started riding, and have a bike with far more potential than me.
On Saturday, I went for a ride on the bike this forum has determined I don't deserve.
I rode with a guy in his early 60's (I'm 49) on an old steel frame fixie that he just put together from parts he had laying around. He rode it for the first time on our ride.
I had my ass handed to me several times on our 30 mile ride.
Does that mean I should trade in my sweet ride for a steel fixie? Nope, ain't happening.
I'll get better, I'll never be great and I'll never race.
I like nice toys and this is one of them.
Not only do I not deserve the awesome bike I own, I clearly don't deserve the awesome carbon bars my wife gave me for my birthday today.
I read through a lot of the posts here, I guess I don't understand why others care what I have. Are there sympathy threads for great riders who are relegated to riding Walmart bikes? I'm sure there are plenty of them who who kick my ass too. I don't feel bad for them, nor jealous of someone riding a Dogma. I have what I have, you have what you have, now let's just ride and be friends.
On Saturday, I went for a ride on the bike this forum has determined I don't deserve.
I rode with a guy in his early 60's (I'm 49) on an old steel frame fixie that he just put together from parts he had laying around. He rode it for the first time on our ride.
I had my ass handed to me several times on our 30 mile ride.
Does that mean I should trade in my sweet ride for a steel fixie? Nope, ain't happening.
I'll get better, I'll never be great and I'll never race.
I like nice toys and this is one of them.
Not only do I not deserve the awesome bike I own, I clearly don't deserve the awesome carbon bars my wife gave me for my birthday today.
I read through a lot of the posts here, I guess I don't understand why others care what I have. Are there sympathy threads for great riders who are relegated to riding Walmart bikes? I'm sure there are plenty of them who who kick my ass too. I don't feel bad for them, nor jealous of someone riding a Dogma. I have what I have, you have what you have, now let's just ride and be friends.
06-17-13, 09:01 AM
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Worthiness is not based upon strengths in cyclings, it's based around the social order defined by your affluence. The dude on the C59 Italia Disk doesn't care that he's slower than you because he's going to drive home in his G-Series, park next to his Lambo and Ferrari, then go home to his super-model wife. He already won before you started caring about who rides what. No matter how fast you go, the guy on the expensive bike is always "better than you" in all aspects of life.
06-17-13, 09:09 AM
#275
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Honestly, I see nothing wrong with spending money on a good quality bike if you have it...even if you're a complete noob.
I'm pretty new to cycling myself and my experience went somewhat like that: I went to a LBS for my birthday last year, decided to get a road bike, financed it (being the poor grad student that I am I had to at the moment), walked out with a brand new Specialized Allez having ZERO experience riding road bikes....and I mean ZERO, as in "never ridden a road bike in my life before". I always had bikes as a kid but just the average, cheap hybrid that you use to ride with your friends, nothing serious. I felt like I had to start from scratch, learning how to ride a bike all over again pretty much, and I'm sure people probably thought that bike was too nice for someone like me. Five months after that I rode my first 68 miles at Tour de Cure at a decent pace for a true beginner (18mph). If I had chosen a bike based on my "level" at the time I would've ended up with something really crappy and I wouldn't have been able to pull that off in only a few months. Plus, the learning curve would have been an unpleasant/frustrating experience. Granted, I bought an entry level bike and not something that costs $5k, but the principle behind it remains the same, since at the time the bike still was too much for me in terms of skills. I did have to spend some extra money down the road in order to "customize" the bike a little more based on my riding preferences (such as new handlebars, saddle, pedals, etc...), but having a decent bike definitely helped me add more miles to it and made learning much more fun.
Having said that, I also think there needs to be some common sense. Like someone already said, if you're a complete noob it won't make much sense to get an uber expensive bike that you don't really know you'll like yet, and that probably says something about the bike shop too (as I would expect them to guide you a little better if you know nothing about bikes). But hey, if you have the money to spare on a fancy bike and you can add/change things eventually, then go for it. If getting a better bike means you'll be putting in more miles and it'll encourage you to ride, then more power to you.
Just my newbie 2 cents.
I'm pretty new to cycling myself and my experience went somewhat like that: I went to a LBS for my birthday last year, decided to get a road bike, financed it (being the poor grad student that I am I had to at the moment), walked out with a brand new Specialized Allez having ZERO experience riding road bikes....and I mean ZERO, as in "never ridden a road bike in my life before". I always had bikes as a kid but just the average, cheap hybrid that you use to ride with your friends, nothing serious. I felt like I had to start from scratch, learning how to ride a bike all over again pretty much, and I'm sure people probably thought that bike was too nice for someone like me. Five months after that I rode my first 68 miles at Tour de Cure at a decent pace for a true beginner (18mph). If I had chosen a bike based on my "level" at the time I would've ended up with something really crappy and I wouldn't have been able to pull that off in only a few months. Plus, the learning curve would have been an unpleasant/frustrating experience. Granted, I bought an entry level bike and not something that costs $5k, but the principle behind it remains the same, since at the time the bike still was too much for me in terms of skills. I did have to spend some extra money down the road in order to "customize" the bike a little more based on my riding preferences (such as new handlebars, saddle, pedals, etc...), but having a decent bike definitely helped me add more miles to it and made learning much more fun.
Having said that, I also think there needs to be some common sense. Like someone already said, if you're a complete noob it won't make much sense to get an uber expensive bike that you don't really know you'll like yet, and that probably says something about the bike shop too (as I would expect them to guide you a little better if you know nothing about bikes). But hey, if you have the money to spare on a fancy bike and you can add/change things eventually, then go for it. If getting a better bike means you'll be putting in more miles and it'll encourage you to ride, then more power to you.
Just my newbie 2 cents.