New old stock Schwinn Letour wheelset value?
04-25-21, 11:21 AM
#26
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I find that really hard to believe, but I will reserve judgement until I take my park scale to my Supercourse and my brothers SL12.2, both large frames.
I guess the serial # will tell, but I wonder if you really have a SL 12.2 frame, or another chrome frame with the wrong stickers. On my brothers bike, the chrome plating is perfect everywhere, and the decals are under the clear coat.
Then again, just weighed my Supercourse, 25lbs 9oz, lighter then I thought, I’ll get over to my brothers this week.
Tim
I guess the serial # will tell, but I wonder if you really have a SL 12.2 frame, or another chrome frame with the wrong stickers. On my brothers bike, the chrome plating is perfect everywhere, and the decals are under the clear coat.
Then again, just weighed my Supercourse, 25lbs 9oz, lighter then I thought, I’ll get over to my brothers this week.
Tim
I read somewhere else that someone had both an SGP and SC frameset, and both weighed within a few tenths of an ounce of one another.
The weight difference between the equipment is negligible, a Cyclone GT (190.6g) and the VXGT (200.3g) derailleur aren't that different, the front derailleurs are the same, the Mailard lf hubs are likely about 65g or so lighter than the hf Normandy hubs, but all else is the same. I've seen two cranksets on the SGP, some had steel chainrings, some had aluminum rings, the same as the SC. The only one with steel I saw was a '79 model in 21".
The added tube weight is probably minimal as well.
They came with the same rims, same tires, the SC had a Brooks B17, the SGP had a swede leather looking saddle or the B17. I'm not sure what the two saddles actually weigh but a B17 is listed at 574g, the Raleigh Scripted leather padded saddle on the bike now weighs 540g.
What I think is happening is that the sum of the components equal out to be the same which makes up any differences elsewhere on the two bikes.
Looking at the components on the Schwinn, the headset, stem, saddle, longer top tube frame, and other various items that add a lot of weight its easy to see why it was heavier. I have little doubt that the assembled bike would have been over 31 lbs. The Schwinn also had an Esge kickstand attached.
The chrome was okay up top, but in areas like between the chainstays, or behind the seat tube on the bb, or the inside of the fork crown were rough, they were chromed but looked like they chromed over sandblasted metal not polished steel. I can't say whether or not it was clear coated, it didn't seem to be. There were a few rust specs around where the tubes met, I removed that easily with some oiled 0000 steel wool. I had a chrome Panasonic once, that bike had fantastic chrome, the thing had chrome on it like a show car. The chrome on the SL12.2 was like the chrome on a Toyota bumper, light in color and not well polished around the edges or areas less visible.
I had a mid 80's Schwinn mountain bike that was full chrome too, that bike had the worst chrome I've ever seen. It wasn't a year old before the chrome was peeling off it. They replaced the frame twice for bad chrome, after the second time, I sold the bike.
I had a full chrome GT Timberline back then, the chrome on that bike was fantastic as well. .
04-26-21, 07:04 AM
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Menomonee Falls, WI
Posts: 1,834
Bikes: 1984 Schwinn Supersport, 1988 Trek 400T, 1977 Trek TX900, 1982 Bianchi Champione del Mondo, 1978 Raleigh Supercourse, 1986 Trek 400 Elance, 1991 Waterford PDG OS Paramount, 1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer, 1985 Trek 670
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535 Posts
reelfishin Managed to get over to my brothers yesterday, to put his Schwinn Super Le Tour 12.2 on my Park scale, after all yours, and others posts, was really curious as to what it weighed, It came in at 25lbs 13oz. The bike is a 1978 25” Panasonic built SL 12.2, ready to ride, I replaced all consumables, and the seat which was quite worn when I rebuilt it 2 years ago. The replacement seat has more padding and just a bit heavier, all the other components are original, and my brother bought the bike new at the local Schwinn dealer. The chrome is still pretty much perfect, and uniform throughout, and the decals are under a clear coat.
So, this bike really could be considered is a direct competitor to the Raleigh Supercourse, it is a few ounces heavier, probably credited to to chrome plating, and you posted yourself that the components are a wash.
I figured something was off when you posted that the 25” chrome SL 12.2 frame you had, was heavier then your Raleigh gas pipe SGP complete, and that the chrome was shoddy. I don’t know what your buddy passed off on you, but obviously not a Panasonic SL 12.2, possibly a low grade chrome frame with the wrong decals. Hopefully he didn’t get dupped, and I’m guessing the buyer that offered you 300 dollars for it, is long gone.
Picking one bike over the other really comes down to personal preference, or bias, I’ve ridden both and prefer the Panasonic Schwinn, obviously others don’t. The quality of Japanese manufacturing was on the rise in the late 70s, manufacturing quality in the UK was pretty much headed the other way, to put it kindly.
Tim
1978 Schwinn Super Le Tour 12.2
1978 Raleigh Supercourse
So, this bike really could be considered is a direct competitor to the Raleigh Supercourse, it is a few ounces heavier, probably credited to to chrome plating, and you posted yourself that the components are a wash.
I figured something was off when you posted that the 25” chrome SL 12.2 frame you had, was heavier then your Raleigh gas pipe SGP complete, and that the chrome was shoddy. I don’t know what your buddy passed off on you, but obviously not a Panasonic SL 12.2, possibly a low grade chrome frame with the wrong decals. Hopefully he didn’t get dupped, and I’m guessing the buyer that offered you 300 dollars for it, is long gone.
Picking one bike over the other really comes down to personal preference, or bias, I’ve ridden both and prefer the Panasonic Schwinn, obviously others don’t. The quality of Japanese manufacturing was on the rise in the late 70s, manufacturing quality in the UK was pretty much headed the other way, to put it kindly.
Tim
1978 Schwinn Super Le Tour 12.2
1978 Raleigh Supercourse
04-26-21, 04:25 PM
#28
Full Member
1978 was pretty much the peak for Raleigh, as well as the beginning of its downfall.
The SC and SGP were top sellers, their fit and finish was still top notch and the frames were still being made in house.
The SC was built at Worksop, the SGP was 'supposedly' built at the old Nottingham plant.
I remember those years well back then, I remember pulling those bikes out to assemble and we would have to assemble dozens of them every week.
The SC was pretty much the most common bike sold then, with the SGP and GP being right behind it. Any of the higher up models were scarce. The Raleigh models weren't cheap, they were higher priced than most of their competition except for Peugeot.
Most Raleigh bikes generally had excellent paint with very few flaws. The decals and striping was consistent and well placed, the lug work was excellent as well.
When it came to the SGP, opening a box to assemble one was a crap shoot, some would come out of the box looking every bit as good as the SC and other models, some would come out of the box looking like they were built by by an amateur and painted by a blind man.
We soon realized that there were really two different SGP's, those that looked good, all had 68mm BB shells, and the same crankset as a SC, they shared everything but the forged rear dropouts and lugs, but were as light or lighter than the SC. The lugs would also vary, some came through with rather plain lugs, others had the more ornate version that looked more like earlier Super Course models.
When the owner of the shop complained, he was told that they often substituted better frames when they ran out to keep up production, and that it was likely that they had built some of the first SGP models in 1978 with left over SC tubing sets from the year before. The Super Course was changed in 1978, it got new lugs and forged dropouts for the first time, in 1977, its specs matched the newer SGP.
It appeared that later SGP models, up to 1981, used the GP frameset but with a forged crown fork.
The better or earlier SGP models also would come through with one of three derailleur combos, the majority had Raleigh Scripted VxGt derailleurs, then they started showing up for a bit with what looked to be a Cyclone with the open cage from a VxGt, then you would find some with steel long cages on Suntour branded VxGt derailleurs as well. (Random parts use wasn't just a Raleigh thing, all the brands were good for mixing up parts when they needed to push out bikes, at least with Raleigh, the changes tended to be an upgrade of the catalog specs. Seat posts were another random item on the SGP, the early models used an SR Laprade type post, later models often came with a plain chrome steel post. The diameter of the posts were different as well, with those with steel posts taking a very standard Raleigh 25.4mm post, while the earlier models came through with 26mm or 26.4mm posts, the same as the older SC frames. Many small frame SGP models also often came out of the box with Raleigh scripted faux alloy handlebars, they had an alloy sleeve in the center yet under the bar tape they were un-plated steel bars with the bar tape on, they looked identical. A magnet was the best way to spot them. On the SC, the bars would often vary between Raleigh scripted SR bars, GB branded, or SR branded bars.
The SC changed in 1979, I gained a full 531 DB frame and a bigger price tag.
Something that really stands out in memory from back then was that nearly all the SGP models we got were larger frames, very few were smaller models. With the SC it was always 21" or 25" bikes, nothing in between. We sold far more large frames than small frames, in just about everything besides Peugeot.
One thing that I can't forget is that with the SGP, the larger frames were often lighter than the smaller frames. I remember pulling a box down off the rack in the store room for a 25" SGP when the model was new, right after pulling down a pair of 21" models and the box 'felt' light. I was expecting to find that one missing its wheels or something. After opening the box and building that bike I quickly realized that the larger frames rarely had the standard 72mm BB shell. The same bikes came with the larger seat posts and lighter frames. The problem was this wasn't always consistent and as the year went on, they became more like Grand Prix models. Nearly all the lighter 25" frame models were light blue or red like the Super Course. Red though was not listed in the brochure as an option but we sold almost as many in red as in blue.I think what was happening was that if they ordered 'green' they were getting red bikes instead for some reason. We never figured that one out and never did see a 'green' SGP.
Somewhere along the line early in 1978, the Super Course also went from coming with a Brooks B17 saddle to having the same suede saddle that came on the SGP., yet throughout the year, smaller models would turn up with B17 saddles.
The parts differences drove us and customers nuts, it got to the point where we would open up all the boxes and mix and match components to at least try and keep the bikes consistent. The owner would also automatically pull all the Brooks saddles and install padded saddles because most didn't want the stock saddle. We had a bin full of B17 saddles that customers didn't want. For years I had a box here full of them as well.
One of my personal bikes is still an SGP, mine is a light blue 25" frame model that weighs in at 25.5lbs with a padded saddle, and a full Shimano 600 Arabesque group of components. I also alternate between the original wheels and a set of 27" wheels off my '73 SC.
My personal bike, an early 1978 SGP, came out of the box with a Raleigh scripted Cyclone GT derailleur, a Raleigh Scripted SR seat post in 26mm, a pair of 750/650mm Raleigh Scripted Weinmann C/P calipers, gum lever hoods, one Raleigh scripted, one Weinmann Scripted, black cloth bar tape, a smooth padded leather saddle with springs with the Raleigh logo on the back but a Made in Italy tag on the bottom edge. The wheels were Weinmann concave 700c with Raleigh scripted 700x28c skinwall tires, A Suntour Perfect 14-30 freewheel, a huge aluminum Sturmey Archer spoke protector, Suntour bar end shifters, a Suntour Compe V steel front derailleur, long white wheel reflectors, a Raleigh scripted 110mm SR stem, and the hubs were small flange Maillard QR models.
My brother, still living at home at the time bought one that same year, his was like the bike in the brochure, it had a straight steel 25.4mm seat post, steel handlebars, a silver paint color that for some reason they called 'green", a Raleigh scripted VxGt derailleur with a steel cage, a 14-34t freewheel, large flange Normandy hubs, Michelin gumwall tires, a 72mm BB shell, steel chain rings, and black suede looking bar tape and a matching faux suede saddle. The decals were mis-applied, the ends of the seat tube bands didn't line up, the Super Grand Prix decal was crooked, and the seat stays had grape looking globs of brass hanging from them from a sloppy brazing job.
I bought my bike in November of 1977, it was one of the first SGP models to show up, he bought his in September of 1978.
I do remember weighing my bike, I know its under 26 lbs, but its running all Shimano 600 right now with an older set of 27" wheels. If I get a chance I'll bring it downstairs and weigh it. I'm not sure if I added or subtracted weight when I changed it all over.
The SC and SGP were top sellers, their fit and finish was still top notch and the frames were still being made in house.
The SC was built at Worksop, the SGP was 'supposedly' built at the old Nottingham plant.
I remember those years well back then, I remember pulling those bikes out to assemble and we would have to assemble dozens of them every week.
The SC was pretty much the most common bike sold then, with the SGP and GP being right behind it. Any of the higher up models were scarce. The Raleigh models weren't cheap, they were higher priced than most of their competition except for Peugeot.
Most Raleigh bikes generally had excellent paint with very few flaws. The decals and striping was consistent and well placed, the lug work was excellent as well.
When it came to the SGP, opening a box to assemble one was a crap shoot, some would come out of the box looking every bit as good as the SC and other models, some would come out of the box looking like they were built by by an amateur and painted by a blind man.
We soon realized that there were really two different SGP's, those that looked good, all had 68mm BB shells, and the same crankset as a SC, they shared everything but the forged rear dropouts and lugs, but were as light or lighter than the SC. The lugs would also vary, some came through with rather plain lugs, others had the more ornate version that looked more like earlier Super Course models.
When the owner of the shop complained, he was told that they often substituted better frames when they ran out to keep up production, and that it was likely that they had built some of the first SGP models in 1978 with left over SC tubing sets from the year before. The Super Course was changed in 1978, it got new lugs and forged dropouts for the first time, in 1977, its specs matched the newer SGP.
It appeared that later SGP models, up to 1981, used the GP frameset but with a forged crown fork.
The better or earlier SGP models also would come through with one of three derailleur combos, the majority had Raleigh Scripted VxGt derailleurs, then they started showing up for a bit with what looked to be a Cyclone with the open cage from a VxGt, then you would find some with steel long cages on Suntour branded VxGt derailleurs as well. (Random parts use wasn't just a Raleigh thing, all the brands were good for mixing up parts when they needed to push out bikes, at least with Raleigh, the changes tended to be an upgrade of the catalog specs. Seat posts were another random item on the SGP, the early models used an SR Laprade type post, later models often came with a plain chrome steel post. The diameter of the posts were different as well, with those with steel posts taking a very standard Raleigh 25.4mm post, while the earlier models came through with 26mm or 26.4mm posts, the same as the older SC frames. Many small frame SGP models also often came out of the box with Raleigh scripted faux alloy handlebars, they had an alloy sleeve in the center yet under the bar tape they were un-plated steel bars with the bar tape on, they looked identical. A magnet was the best way to spot them. On the SC, the bars would often vary between Raleigh scripted SR bars, GB branded, or SR branded bars.
The SC changed in 1979, I gained a full 531 DB frame and a bigger price tag.
Something that really stands out in memory from back then was that nearly all the SGP models we got were larger frames, very few were smaller models. With the SC it was always 21" or 25" bikes, nothing in between. We sold far more large frames than small frames, in just about everything besides Peugeot.
One thing that I can't forget is that with the SGP, the larger frames were often lighter than the smaller frames. I remember pulling a box down off the rack in the store room for a 25" SGP when the model was new, right after pulling down a pair of 21" models and the box 'felt' light. I was expecting to find that one missing its wheels or something. After opening the box and building that bike I quickly realized that the larger frames rarely had the standard 72mm BB shell. The same bikes came with the larger seat posts and lighter frames. The problem was this wasn't always consistent and as the year went on, they became more like Grand Prix models. Nearly all the lighter 25" frame models were light blue or red like the Super Course. Red though was not listed in the brochure as an option but we sold almost as many in red as in blue.I think what was happening was that if they ordered 'green' they were getting red bikes instead for some reason. We never figured that one out and never did see a 'green' SGP.
Somewhere along the line early in 1978, the Super Course also went from coming with a Brooks B17 saddle to having the same suede saddle that came on the SGP., yet throughout the year, smaller models would turn up with B17 saddles.
The parts differences drove us and customers nuts, it got to the point where we would open up all the boxes and mix and match components to at least try and keep the bikes consistent. The owner would also automatically pull all the Brooks saddles and install padded saddles because most didn't want the stock saddle. We had a bin full of B17 saddles that customers didn't want. For years I had a box here full of them as well.
One of my personal bikes is still an SGP, mine is a light blue 25" frame model that weighs in at 25.5lbs with a padded saddle, and a full Shimano 600 Arabesque group of components. I also alternate between the original wheels and a set of 27" wheels off my '73 SC.
My personal bike, an early 1978 SGP, came out of the box with a Raleigh scripted Cyclone GT derailleur, a Raleigh Scripted SR seat post in 26mm, a pair of 750/650mm Raleigh Scripted Weinmann C/P calipers, gum lever hoods, one Raleigh scripted, one Weinmann Scripted, black cloth bar tape, a smooth padded leather saddle with springs with the Raleigh logo on the back but a Made in Italy tag on the bottom edge. The wheels were Weinmann concave 700c with Raleigh scripted 700x28c skinwall tires, A Suntour Perfect 14-30 freewheel, a huge aluminum Sturmey Archer spoke protector, Suntour bar end shifters, a Suntour Compe V steel front derailleur, long white wheel reflectors, a Raleigh scripted 110mm SR stem, and the hubs were small flange Maillard QR models.
My brother, still living at home at the time bought one that same year, his was like the bike in the brochure, it had a straight steel 25.4mm seat post, steel handlebars, a silver paint color that for some reason they called 'green", a Raleigh scripted VxGt derailleur with a steel cage, a 14-34t freewheel, large flange Normandy hubs, Michelin gumwall tires, a 72mm BB shell, steel chain rings, and black suede looking bar tape and a matching faux suede saddle. The decals were mis-applied, the ends of the seat tube bands didn't line up, the Super Grand Prix decal was crooked, and the seat stays had grape looking globs of brass hanging from them from a sloppy brazing job.
I bought my bike in November of 1977, it was one of the first SGP models to show up, he bought his in September of 1978.
I do remember weighing my bike, I know its under 26 lbs, but its running all Shimano 600 right now with an older set of 27" wheels. If I get a chance I'll bring it downstairs and weigh it. I'm not sure if I added or subtracted weight when I changed it all over.
04-26-21, 08:55 PM
#29
Junior Member
Thread Starter
The SL12.2 I traded away looked the same as the one above but with red or burgundy outlined decals, bar end shifters, and a sprung saddle. The bar tape matched the decal outline color and the cable housings.
The headset looks the same, the way the seat stays meet the top lug looks the same, as does the rear dropouts as well.
If it wasn't an SL12.2 someone sure went to great lengths to make it into one. I doubt if the chrome was coated in anyway, but the decals were sort of printed on a clear backing or had something over them. I could feel they were one big decal not individual letters like the older decals were. The decals on a 70's Speedster I've got here are done the same way,
It also had a riveted headbadge, with the type of rivets you hammer in, not screws like on a Traveler I looked at.
If the frame was clear coated, it would have scratched the clear not taken off the few rust specs on the chainstay and lower fork when I rubbed it with steel wool.
I didn't sell it, it was a trade with some cash and spare parts included, and a case of beer. He really wanted that frame for some reason. I have no clue what he's going to do with it.
It didn't look like anything special to me.
Once I get the SGP all together I'll weigh it and get a total assembled weight. My guess is it won't be much more than your Super Course. I don't have a Park Scale, the only scales I have here is a postal scale that goes up to 140 lbs, and a couple of fish scales that work similar but I've got no idea how accurate they are throughout the whole range, they go 0-50 lbs, I varified them using a 10 lb dumbell weight and got 10.01 lbs, so I figure its pretty close.
I weighed the bike as it sits, with the SC wheels on it, and got 19.6 lbs, I lifted and weighed it 5 times and got the same reading each time, zeroing the scale each time.
I weighed the bag of components, including packaging for various parts, and got 6.2 lbs total.
The total of the parts, packaging, and bike as it sits in the above picture, is 25.8 lbs. Not bad for gas pipe.
I've got a sneaky suspicion they didn't build these with plain steel, my bet is like mentioned above, they likely used up some '77 SC tube sets to build the first SGP models. Its about the only thing that makes sense. They're not flat out SC frames, because the lugs on the SGP are more ornate then those on the SC in '77 or '78. The angles are identical to an SC as well. I also can't say how much weight savings there is between Hi Ten steel and straight gauge 531 either. As far as i know, steel is steel, if both are straight gauge steel, regardless of one being 531 or not, the both will weigh the same. In other words, one cubic inch of chromoly steel weighs the same as one cubic inch of mild steel, the weight savings is only there if you make it thinner and use less material. When i take the bike apart, I'll weigh the bare frame and fork to see what's there. my guess is it'll weigh the same as an SC frame or be darn close to it.
That bag includes a full crankset, (keep in mind there's already a BB set in the bike too), stock steel Raleigh reflector pedals and toe clips, a full reflector kit new in the bag with brackets, (the bike already has a front bracket installed as well, a complete set of Suntour Barcon shifters, complete with SS housings, cables, shifters, and a set of frame clamps that won't be needed on this bike, plus a set of Raleigh scripted shifter covers, front and rear Raleigh Scripted C/P calipers, Sturmey Archer spoke protector, a Suntour Perfect 14-34 freewheel, one new Raleigh scripted Cyclone GT derailleur, and one Suntour Comp V front derailleur. a brand new 118 link SedisSport chain new in sleeve, and a tube of Park Poly lube. I threw in the tube of grease because I didn't know how much weight fresh grease will add and there's no bar tape included in these weights.
I also weighed the cranks separately to compare them to a set of Grand Prix steel ring cranks and got 1.5 lb for the SGP cranks, and got 2.1lb for the GP cranks. The only difference being the chainrings.
In digging through the box of spare parts he gave me there's more than enough parts to build another whole bike minus a frame set.
I've got three cranksets, one brand new, two used, plus one GP crankset off an older bike, four Cyclone GT rear derailleurs, two VXGT rear derailleurs, two Compe V front derailleurs, two Cyclone front derailleurs, 8 sets of bar end shifters, 5 of which are brand new kits in Suntour bags, one is a new kit from Raleigh. four 'Raleigh' Cycle Pro oem reflector kits complete with brackets, two Raleigh Scripted leather saddles, two Selle Royale scripted padded leather saddles, one Brooks B17, two sets of Atom alloy pedals, two sets of Raleigh steel pedals, four new Q/R Normandy H/F hubs, two red banded Normandy hubs, (Not sure if these are any good for this, he seemed to think they may be French threaded), one set of Atom L/F hubs, and one set of Maillard L/F Q/R hubs, two shorter chains, one is likely the original chain off the bike, three freewheels, all Suntour perfect, one 14-34, one 14-30, and one 14-28. Plus one Suntour Cyclone short cage rear derailleur.
And a pile of small parts, four rolls of Rampar cloth bar tape, two new black wall, Michelin Dynamic 700-28C tires with two new Michelin tubes. two 700x35 Michelin World Tour gumwall tires and two used older Hutchinson 700x28c tires that he said were off another bike he had before. There's also an extra 110mm GB stem, one GB handlebar, and one 'Raleigh Handlebar just like is on the bike now.
There's also one more pair of Weinmann brake levers and calipers but without the safety levers, and two 26.6mm Raleigh Scripted seat posts with two Suede Raleigh saddles, and one set of aluminum Esge branded road fenders. There may be more but I haven't gone through it all yet. Plus one 30 pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon.
I guess I'll have to find a Super Course frame to put together now, if I can find one in 23.5 or 25.5 I have everything else here to build it 100% original. The SC would probably have to be a '77 or '78 model, with the '78 model being preferred but I don't think there's much difference between the two other than the rear dropouts and a few braze-ons.
Frameset, L/F wheels, BB, HS, bars, brake levers, brake cables, and padded leather "Raleigh" saddle.
6.2 lbs includes the crankset and all listed above
Out of curiosity I weighed the crank arms by themselves and got 1.5 lbs. (Aluminum chain rings,with OEM chain guard)
The headset looks the same, the way the seat stays meet the top lug looks the same, as does the rear dropouts as well.
If it wasn't an SL12.2 someone sure went to great lengths to make it into one. I doubt if the chrome was coated in anyway, but the decals were sort of printed on a clear backing or had something over them. I could feel they were one big decal not individual letters like the older decals were. The decals on a 70's Speedster I've got here are done the same way,
It also had a riveted headbadge, with the type of rivets you hammer in, not screws like on a Traveler I looked at.
If the frame was clear coated, it would have scratched the clear not taken off the few rust specs on the chainstay and lower fork when I rubbed it with steel wool.
I didn't sell it, it was a trade with some cash and spare parts included, and a case of beer. He really wanted that frame for some reason. I have no clue what he's going to do with it.
It didn't look like anything special to me.
Once I get the SGP all together I'll weigh it and get a total assembled weight. My guess is it won't be much more than your Super Course. I don't have a Park Scale, the only scales I have here is a postal scale that goes up to 140 lbs, and a couple of fish scales that work similar but I've got no idea how accurate they are throughout the whole range, they go 0-50 lbs, I varified them using a 10 lb dumbell weight and got 10.01 lbs, so I figure its pretty close.
I weighed the bike as it sits, with the SC wheels on it, and got 19.6 lbs, I lifted and weighed it 5 times and got the same reading each time, zeroing the scale each time.
I weighed the bag of components, including packaging for various parts, and got 6.2 lbs total.
The total of the parts, packaging, and bike as it sits in the above picture, is 25.8 lbs. Not bad for gas pipe.
I've got a sneaky suspicion they didn't build these with plain steel, my bet is like mentioned above, they likely used up some '77 SC tube sets to build the first SGP models. Its about the only thing that makes sense. They're not flat out SC frames, because the lugs on the SGP are more ornate then those on the SC in '77 or '78. The angles are identical to an SC as well. I also can't say how much weight savings there is between Hi Ten steel and straight gauge 531 either. As far as i know, steel is steel, if both are straight gauge steel, regardless of one being 531 or not, the both will weigh the same. In other words, one cubic inch of chromoly steel weighs the same as one cubic inch of mild steel, the weight savings is only there if you make it thinner and use less material. When i take the bike apart, I'll weigh the bare frame and fork to see what's there. my guess is it'll weigh the same as an SC frame or be darn close to it.
That bag includes a full crankset, (keep in mind there's already a BB set in the bike too), stock steel Raleigh reflector pedals and toe clips, a full reflector kit new in the bag with brackets, (the bike already has a front bracket installed as well, a complete set of Suntour Barcon shifters, complete with SS housings, cables, shifters, and a set of frame clamps that won't be needed on this bike, plus a set of Raleigh scripted shifter covers, front and rear Raleigh Scripted C/P calipers, Sturmey Archer spoke protector, a Suntour Perfect 14-34 freewheel, one new Raleigh scripted Cyclone GT derailleur, and one Suntour Comp V front derailleur. a brand new 118 link SedisSport chain new in sleeve, and a tube of Park Poly lube. I threw in the tube of grease because I didn't know how much weight fresh grease will add and there's no bar tape included in these weights.
I also weighed the cranks separately to compare them to a set of Grand Prix steel ring cranks and got 1.5 lb for the SGP cranks, and got 2.1lb for the GP cranks. The only difference being the chainrings.
In digging through the box of spare parts he gave me there's more than enough parts to build another whole bike minus a frame set.
I've got three cranksets, one brand new, two used, plus one GP crankset off an older bike, four Cyclone GT rear derailleurs, two VXGT rear derailleurs, two Compe V front derailleurs, two Cyclone front derailleurs, 8 sets of bar end shifters, 5 of which are brand new kits in Suntour bags, one is a new kit from Raleigh. four 'Raleigh' Cycle Pro oem reflector kits complete with brackets, two Raleigh Scripted leather saddles, two Selle Royale scripted padded leather saddles, one Brooks B17, two sets of Atom alloy pedals, two sets of Raleigh steel pedals, four new Q/R Normandy H/F hubs, two red banded Normandy hubs, (Not sure if these are any good for this, he seemed to think they may be French threaded), one set of Atom L/F hubs, and one set of Maillard L/F Q/R hubs, two shorter chains, one is likely the original chain off the bike, three freewheels, all Suntour perfect, one 14-34, one 14-30, and one 14-28. Plus one Suntour Cyclone short cage rear derailleur.
And a pile of small parts, four rolls of Rampar cloth bar tape, two new black wall, Michelin Dynamic 700-28C tires with two new Michelin tubes. two 700x35 Michelin World Tour gumwall tires and two used older Hutchinson 700x28c tires that he said were off another bike he had before. There's also an extra 110mm GB stem, one GB handlebar, and one 'Raleigh Handlebar just like is on the bike now.
There's also one more pair of Weinmann brake levers and calipers but without the safety levers, and two 26.6mm Raleigh Scripted seat posts with two Suede Raleigh saddles, and one set of aluminum Esge branded road fenders. There may be more but I haven't gone through it all yet. Plus one 30 pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon.
I guess I'll have to find a Super Course frame to put together now, if I can find one in 23.5 or 25.5 I have everything else here to build it 100% original. The SC would probably have to be a '77 or '78 model, with the '78 model being preferred but I don't think there's much difference between the two other than the rear dropouts and a few braze-ons.
Frameset, L/F wheels, BB, HS, bars, brake levers, brake cables, and padded leather "Raleigh" saddle.
6.2 lbs includes the crankset and all listed above
Out of curiosity I weighed the crank arms by themselves and got 1.5 lbs. (Aluminum chain rings,with OEM chain guard)
04-27-21, 09:35 AM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Menomonee Falls, WI
Posts: 1,834
Bikes: 1984 Schwinn Supersport, 1988 Trek 400T, 1977 Trek TX900, 1982 Bianchi Champione del Mondo, 1978 Raleigh Supercourse, 1986 Trek 400 Elance, 1991 Waterford PDG OS Paramount, 1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer, 1985 Trek 670
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Wow, I think those are 2 of the longest posts that I have ever read on bike forums. Wouldn’t even know where to begin, as to a reply.
Tim
Tim
04-27-21, 11:53 PM
#31
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Sorry, didn't think it was all that long.
I was just trying to point out that the SGP isn't a tank like so many make it out to be, its lighter and nearly identical in every way to the Super Course minus the tubing decal.
They either built these with the same tubing or use of 531 tubes on the SC was a waste of time. This bike is by far a stiffer frame than the SC my buddy has, and his is a smaller frame.
Somehow his 23.5" frame still weighs in nearly the same, its 100% stock, one size smaller than this SGP and it weighs 25.9 lbs, with no add ons at all, not even a kickstand or water bottle.
That bike is a testament to the brand though, he's 6ft tall, and 385lbs and has had and ridden that bike daily since new with only a few pedal axle failures and two sets of wheels. Like me, he learned not to stand up on the pedals. (His original set is on my SGP in the pic above).
All the talk about weights got me thinking a bit, and I weighed the set of Michelin Dynamic 700-28C tires with a set of puncture resistant tubes and it would ad 4.14lbs to the bike over the original tires on it now. Add in a rear rack, some padded bar tape, a head and tail light, with batteries, a set of fenders, a pump, and water bottle and the bike will top out just shy of 40 lbs.
I also thought about converting it to a three speed, with upright or straight handlebars.
It was an idea I considered with the Schwinn but not having wheels for it it didn't much matter, but since I have to build the original wheels for this bike, I can build in any hub I want now, and being a Raleigh, I won't feel bad using a Sturmey Archer hub. I even have a correct year hub for it. I originally always wanted to build up a Sprite, Record, or Grand Prix that way but the Super Grand Prix will do just as well I suppose.
I was just trying to point out that the SGP isn't a tank like so many make it out to be, its lighter and nearly identical in every way to the Super Course minus the tubing decal.
They either built these with the same tubing or use of 531 tubes on the SC was a waste of time. This bike is by far a stiffer frame than the SC my buddy has, and his is a smaller frame.
Somehow his 23.5" frame still weighs in nearly the same, its 100% stock, one size smaller than this SGP and it weighs 25.9 lbs, with no add ons at all, not even a kickstand or water bottle.
That bike is a testament to the brand though, he's 6ft tall, and 385lbs and has had and ridden that bike daily since new with only a few pedal axle failures and two sets of wheels. Like me, he learned not to stand up on the pedals. (His original set is on my SGP in the pic above).
All the talk about weights got me thinking a bit, and I weighed the set of Michelin Dynamic 700-28C tires with a set of puncture resistant tubes and it would ad 4.14lbs to the bike over the original tires on it now. Add in a rear rack, some padded bar tape, a head and tail light, with batteries, a set of fenders, a pump, and water bottle and the bike will top out just shy of 40 lbs.
I also thought about converting it to a three speed, with upright or straight handlebars.
It was an idea I considered with the Schwinn but not having wheels for it it didn't much matter, but since I have to build the original wheels for this bike, I can build in any hub I want now, and being a Raleigh, I won't feel bad using a Sturmey Archer hub. I even have a correct year hub for it. I originally always wanted to build up a Sprite, Record, or Grand Prix that way but the Super Grand Prix will do just as well I suppose.
04-28-21, 05:19 AM
#32
Newbie
After all that I can't believe those wheels in the first post are still for sale. After all the talk about how good a Super Letour 12.2 is or vintage bikes in general, some one is still selling a set of 70's alloy wheels for just $60, and there's no takers.
All this talk about a bike boom only seems to apply to Walmart bikes, because I've seen dozens of bikes listed for sale around me and nothing vintage sells unless its near free.
Has anyone priced spokes or rims lately?
I'd also guess that there are more 27" bikes out there then anything else. They were still selling bikes with 27" wheels well into the 1990's, and most folks bought what ever was cheapest. Back in the day, we sold 50 27" bikes for every one 700c bike. We probably sold more tubular tire bikes than regular 700c bikes. Now 27" anything is all but gone but there are plenty of bikes still out there just waiting to get back on the road. (Road bikes in general are pretty much gone here, not just 27", its cheap suspension mountain bikes or cruisers only these days, and most of them are from box stores.
You can't compare a Super Grand Prix to the Grand Prix, the SGP was a very different bike, the frame was lighter, the lugs were more ornate and it came with better equipment across the board. The Grand Prix was basically an upgraded Record, which was sort of the same thing as a Sprite 27. The GP also was built for chrome steel 27" wheels, heavy derailleurs, and it was the last to lose its cottered cranks. The Record would have competed with the Varsity, the Grand Prix maybe with the Continental, but in equipment or quality not price. The Schwinn's were likely cheaper. The SGP was big step up in quality and in price, somewhere in the realm of the Super Letour but with some nicer features and the fact that you were buying an English built bike not a rebadged Japanese import wearing a Schwinn badge.
When I look at a Letour, Super Letour, or Traveler, I see bikes built to a price point, the tubing wasn't anything special. I agree, the headset and stem made the bike look cheap, and the lack of a big name tubing decal didn't help it much either. I also prefer Suntour over Shimano. I looked at both back around that time, but bought a Peugeot because of price. The Peugeot was cheap enough that I still could afford some extras. I added a set of Suntour Bar end shifters, a Cyclone front derailleur, and two double wall rims and was still cheaper than the lesser Raleigh or the Schwinn.
All this talk about a bike boom only seems to apply to Walmart bikes, because I've seen dozens of bikes listed for sale around me and nothing vintage sells unless its near free.
Has anyone priced spokes or rims lately?
I'd also guess that there are more 27" bikes out there then anything else. They were still selling bikes with 27" wheels well into the 1990's, and most folks bought what ever was cheapest. Back in the day, we sold 50 27" bikes for every one 700c bike. We probably sold more tubular tire bikes than regular 700c bikes. Now 27" anything is all but gone but there are plenty of bikes still out there just waiting to get back on the road. (Road bikes in general are pretty much gone here, not just 27", its cheap suspension mountain bikes or cruisers only these days, and most of them are from box stores.
You can't compare a Super Grand Prix to the Grand Prix, the SGP was a very different bike, the frame was lighter, the lugs were more ornate and it came with better equipment across the board. The Grand Prix was basically an upgraded Record, which was sort of the same thing as a Sprite 27. The GP also was built for chrome steel 27" wheels, heavy derailleurs, and it was the last to lose its cottered cranks. The Record would have competed with the Varsity, the Grand Prix maybe with the Continental, but in equipment or quality not price. The Schwinn's were likely cheaper. The SGP was big step up in quality and in price, somewhere in the realm of the Super Letour but with some nicer features and the fact that you were buying an English built bike not a rebadged Japanese import wearing a Schwinn badge.
When I look at a Letour, Super Letour, or Traveler, I see bikes built to a price point, the tubing wasn't anything special. I agree, the headset and stem made the bike look cheap, and the lack of a big name tubing decal didn't help it much either. I also prefer Suntour over Shimano. I looked at both back around that time, but bought a Peugeot because of price. The Peugeot was cheap enough that I still could afford some extras. I added a set of Suntour Bar end shifters, a Cyclone front derailleur, and two double wall rims and was still cheaper than the lesser Raleigh or the Schwinn.
04-28-21, 05:27 AM
#33
Zip tie Karen
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 7,004
Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100
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04-29-21, 04:35 AM
#34
Newbie
When it comes to wheels, at least for me, I sort of have a point where I will or won't go with more modern wheels, if the bike is older than say 1983, I hunt down or build a set of period correct or original wheels if at all possible. If its newer, then it doesn't much matter to me, but then again, I really don't bother with anything newer.
