Freerojo

The pictures above go with this reply

Hi, In 1985? wife and I bought Shoguns, mine was the 400 Cr-mo and serial #S3K6363
Frame is Champion #5 "Seamless"
Wheels: Araya 27" 1 1/4" w/o
FD and RD: Shimano Altus LT derailleurs and shifters
Brakes: Shimano Tourney brakes (though I replaced the rear one.
Cranks are Takagi. Stem has "SR" on it
the handlebars have "Road Champion" and "Alps" with some fancy engraving.
I replaced the bottom bracket with a Shimano cartridge one when I stripped the bike to the bearings and rebuilt it.

What year was this actually built?

Hers: Shogun 300 Chromium Molybdenum Double butted
Serial # 4M4M65291
Frame: Tange 900 Cr-mo Double butted tubes
Fork: Tangaloy
Wheels: Araya 27x1 1/4 w/0
FD and RD : Shimano (there is no other info)
Shifters: Shimano Z401
Brakes: Dia-compe
Cranks: Sakae SA

All original except for the tires. Stripped to the bearings and rebuilt.

PGMikeT

Freerojo. Your serial# dates the frame manufacturing date as November 1983 (the 3K bit). Could well be an '84 model. Your wife's serial indicates 1984, but "M" obviously doesn't work for the month code. You might want to take another look at it!

PGMikeT

fmaxpa

hi i am new to the thread and just picked up a shogun cr mo 400 serial number s2e5363. Can anyone please give me an idea of what year this bike is and what it is worth. it is in great shape and i want to know how i made out. Thank you in advance.

Bianchigirll 

Hello fmaxpa welcome. can you tell us more about your Shogun? what kind of components does it have? color? can you post a few pics?

T-Mar

Well, it's definitely a 1982 model. Shogun 400 from this era tended to around the entry level and mid-range crossover. Tubing was typically a Tange #5 for the main triangle and Shimano Altus and/or Tourney tended to feature in the component mix.

In addition to the level of the components and the tubing, the value will be highly dependent on the bicycle's mechanical and cosmetic condition, along with the market conditions in your area (i.e. you'll get a lot more for your bicycle in Lala land than you will in Bugtussle). So along with the pics, which will give us a good appreciation of the condition, let us know where you live.

Bianchigirll 

show off

fmaxpa

T-mar you are correct it has Shimano Altus LT derailleurs and shifters and Shimano Tourney brakes. I belive the whole bike is stock b/c it has sat for over 15 years. It is in great shape just a few tiny chips in the frame. Everything works on the bike shifts gears smooth. I am living in lehighton pa

fmaxpa

i will try to get on some better pics these were taken on my phone.

virginiat

Hi all

I just obtained a Shogun Tange 900 CrMo, with serial # L8T2730. Any ideas of its age?

V

T-Mar

Built in 1988, but late enough in the year that it could a 1989 model.

virginiat

Cool, thanks for the info. Nice to know a little more about it. Its a nice ride.

dyrmaker83

Can anyone comment on the geometry differences between Shogun's by number? I've searched and searched for catalog scans to no avail, and it looks (from this thread) that road, sport, and touring model geometries can be found within the same number models. I'm looking at a Shogun 600 listed on CL that appears to have a road geometry with 27" wheels, and looks almost identical to this one:

[IMG]
Drive side by Joe Woods, on Flickr[/IMG]

On the other hand, 400's appear to be more of a sport touring geometry like this one:

[IMG]
Lady Bike Project, 'Before' by Lovely Bicycle!, on Flickr[/IMG]

Does this appear to be correct? For the record, I'm looking for a sport geometry but I'm getting anxious to find an 80's Japanese bike on Craigslist.

T-Mar

The geometry on a particular model can vary, depending on the year. As a rule of thumb, entry level models use sport-touring geometry. 27" wheels, rear derailleurs with claw mounts and stem mounted shifters are typical on entry level bicycles until the 1980s and are pretty reliable indicators that the bicycle has sport-touring geometry.

Things started getting trickier in the early and mid-1980s when features started trickling down and you could get entry level models with 700C wheels, integral derailleur hangers and/or downtube shifters. You often got better tubing too but sometimes the geometry got racier.

Bottom line is that you have to judge each bicycle individually. If the seller provides a good, straight on, side shot, you can often judge things accuractely. For instance, the champagne 400 has sport-touring geometry. The head and seat tubes are parallel, the chainstays are relatively long, with a good gap between the seat tube and rear tire, and the fork has pronounced rake in it. On the other hand, the blue 600 appears racier. The head tube angle appears steeper than the seat tube angle, the stays appear shorter with less gap between the seat tube and rear tire, and the fork has less rake.

However, be forewarned that pictures can sometimes distort the goemetry if they are taken at an angle and/or with a wide angle setting. The only way to be be sure is to view the bicycle in person and take it for a ride.

For instance, in this particular case, the 600 is actually spec'd with parallel head and seat tubes. The owner was kind enough to provide a pic of the serial number in the photo album. Based on this and my specs, I was able to determine that it is a 1984 model, manufactured in 1983. The spec sheet indicates parallel 72.5 angles, only 0.5 degrees steeper than that year's 400. At 16.75", the chainstays are 0.75" shorter than the 1984 model 400 and the rake, at 1.75" is 0.5" less. So yes, it's racier, but the angles still aren't very aggressive. Be aware, that these specs are for the 23" frame and angles often vary depending on frame size. I trust this helps.

Hangtownmatt

I need some help determining the value of this Shogun 600 to see if it's worth spending the time and money turning this into a commuter. There is not a serial number on the bottom bracket or anywhere else as far as I can tell. The rear wheel spacing is 120mm and there are eyelets for fenders and racks front and rear; very cool. The drive train components are all Shimano 600. Here are some pictures:

scozim 

Working on a Shogun 300 mixte for the mother of my 12 yo's best friend. It'll be a surprise gift so hopefully the bike will be acceptable to her.

Serial number is Y5c2993. Just a frame and fork right now and just about ready to start building it up this next week after picking up some headset spacers.

AZORCH

ca. 1984 or 1985 Shogun 2000 Touring Model, serial number 555084 stamped into bottom bracket. Any idea why the serial number format looks so different? (i.e., no letters in the code.)

T-Mar

The obvious answer is that it was manufactured by a different contractor. If you look back though the thread, you'll find that are several different serial number formats, indicating that Shogun didn't have any allegiance toone particular manufacturer and probaly allocated contracts primarily on price. On the other hand, are you sure that one or two of those "5"s aren't "S"s?

Hangtownmatt

T-MAR - No response on mine? Have you ever heard of not having a serial number?

AZORCH

I wasn't thinking that through - of course that makes perfect sense. After all the time and trouble I go to with my Peugeots, you'd think I'd remember just how little sense the serial numbers make. In response to the second comment, I went back to make sure I was reading it correctly and it's definitely numbers only. Anyway, now you've got this number to add into the database. Hope they all begin to make a little more sense as time goes on!

T-Mar

The reason I asked is because the database shows cases of two different serial number formats that do begin with an "S". Yours is the first Shogun I've seen with an all numeric serial number.

FYI, I have specs for both the 1984 and 1985 model 2000. It looks like lots of parts have been changed on yours. However, there is one frame difference. The 1984 was spec'd with only two sets of bottle bosses, while the 1985 had three. Hope this helps.

AZORCH

Southpaw Boston and I did a frame/fork trade, which is the reason for the difference in components. The current set came off my (now SPB's) '88 Voyageur. The serial number is unmistakably numbers only. Would you mind sharing the 84/85 specs?

southpawboston

T-Mar, I'd be very interested in seeing this direct comparison of specs between the 1984 and 1985 Shogun 2000s. As AZORCH mentioned, that 1985 Shogun frame used to be mine, and I had bought it with all the original parts intact. If I recall, the steerer on that was stamped Tange 3C, indicating a March 1983 fork build, but all those "5"s in the S/N made me believe the rest of the bike was 1985. (Also, 1985 was consistent with the date codes of many of parts on the bike).

I now have a 1984 Shogun 1500, whose serial # is more conventional (4SBxxxx) indicating a February 1984 build. Also the 1500 steerer tube is stamped Tange 4k, indicating a November 1984 fork build.

I am very curious about the differences between the 1984 1500 and the 1985 2000. My own logic tells me that there were no concurrently offered 1500/2000 models, but that the 2000 was the replacement for the 1500. Can you confirm this?

I say this because much of the equipment that came on each bike was of the same level: both had the same 1st gen XT derailleurs and XT cantis, 105-level brake levers, and 27" Araya 16A rims with Suzue sealed cartridge bearing hubs. If the 2000 was the higher trim option to the 1500, why would those components have been identical? There were a few nicer pieces on the 2000, like a Technomic stem versus an SR custom on the 1500, and a really nice Takagi crankset as opposed to the plain Sakae CX set, but mostly the comps were the same. In fact, the 1500 came with a way nicer BB: a sealed cartridge Tange with lightweight adjustable aluminum cups on both sides, as opposed to a regular loose ball/steel cup Tange BB on the 2000.

There seem to be several subtle frame differences between the 1984 1500 and 1985 2000:

2000 has three sets of bottle cage bosses, 1500 has two
2000 has fork low-rider bosses, 1500 does not
2000 has double eyelets on rear dropouts, 1500 has single eyelets
2000 has derailleur cable guide braze-ons beneath BB shell, 1500 has them above BB shell
2000 has "S" seatstay caps, 1500 has regular seatstay caps
2000 has chromed rear triangle beneath the factory paint, the 1500 does not
2000 has downtube shifter braze-ons, 1500 does not

Several features are the same between the two frames:

both have double eyelets on front fork
both frames have the same front and rear forged dropouts
both frames are Tange #2 DB seamless, with Tange chromoly fork and stays
both frames have a chain hanger braze-on
both frames have canti-bosses
lugsets are the same on both frames (except the seatstay caps)
head tube/seat tube angles are the same on both frames
rear brake hanger and cable guides are the same on both frames

With all those similarities in terms of frame material, geometry, and components, it leads me to think that the 1500 was their original top touring model, and was replaced by the 2000 sometime around 1984 or 1985, with only minor changes and upgrades to the specs. Also, if I recall, the 2000 was replaced later on in the 1980s with the Alpine GT, which actually moved a little down-spec, with cheaper Deore-level mechs and Tangealloy or Mangalloy frame.

Again, any additional insight you may have into these models would be appreciated, T-Mar.

T-Mar

I can't comment on a lot the frame fitting details, as my info is taken from old magazines and there are no pics, only specs. So what I have are bits and pieces and not a complete product line.

In 1983 there was a 2001 Touring model. I assume the model number came from the tubeset, as it is Mangalloy. Derailleurs and cranksets were Deore, while the brakes were 600EX.

In 1984 there was both a 1500 and a 2000. Both have Shimao XT derailleurs and cantilevers. The 1500 is listed with a SR CRC crankset, while the 2000 specs a Takagi XT. However, the big difference is in the frames, with the 1500 not having CrMo stays and forks. Both are listed with 2 sets of bottle bosses.

For 1985, it appears the 1500 was replaced by a 2500. Tange 900 main tubes and Mangaloy fork. SunTour MounTech derailleurs. Dia-Compe cantilevers, Sugino TGT, 2 bottles.

1985 model 2000, CrMo DB (no brand mentioned), Deore XT derailleurs and cantilvers, Takagi ART crankset, 3 bottles.

I don't have data for 1986 but the 1987 Alpine GT appears to have been a replacement for the 2500. Tange Infinity, Shimano Deore derailleurs and cantilevers, Sugino VP, 2 bottles.

So it looks like the 2001 Touring became the 1500, which became the 2500 which became the Alpine GT. They appear to have been Shogun's entry level grand tourer. While I only have model 2000 data for 1984 and 1985, it's obviously the upper end grand tourer. It probably existed in other years, though possibly not under the same model number/name.

It's really strange that the fork and frame on the 1500 are separated by 9 months. A November fork date would typically imply a 1985 model, but the 1985 version would appear to be a model 2500. I wonder if the fork might be a replacement, either due to a warranty issue or a crash? Given that your fork is CrMo and both the 1984 1500 fork and the 1985 2500 fork are listed as non-CrMo, it would seem to be a possibility.

southpawboston

Thanks, T-Mar. I actually didn't have any data to indicate that my 1500 fork is cr-mo other than it is identical to the 2000's in every way (other than the lack of low-rider bosses), from the crown to the forged ends. I'm actually bothered now with the idea that my 1500 might have hi-ten stays and fork. Digging around a little and delving into the Tange catalog from the early 80s, based on the illustrations of the different options, it appears that the fork is chromoly. They show several fork crown and fork end options for their cr-mo forks and for their hi-ten forks, and mine only matches to the their cr-mo options. Given the date-stamp disparity, it is consistent with the fork having been replaced. However, if that were the case, the replacement had the identical color to the original. I guess I'll never really know for sure!

sKiLLeD

picked up a shogun triple triangle in a pink/grey color scheme. Says 1000 on seat stays and has tange 2 stickers. Serial # M5L63493. Just a frame for now...