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Track Tire Questions

Old 08-27-15, 06:28 PM
  #126  
taras0000
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
My LBS puts those tufos on their builds and Ive ridden on them a few times (not raced) with positive feedback. For the midrange, cheaper, track specific tire, I think they're great, and are about as cheap as it gets for pista tires. Nice high pressure, ok grip on wood. They are heavier than say a vittora, but so am I...


I've also seen the track clincher they make that carl mentioned, which has a very high PSI rating for a clincher....if you feel you must.
I find that Tufo tends to punch above it's weight class when you factor in price. As far as the super high PSI clinchers, be careful with those. Most rims aren't designed to take clinchers over 140 psi and may not be warranted for that. I've seen rim beads spread when we took a Vredestien Fortezza Tri-Comp to it's blow out pressure. It was the rim's sidewall bead that failed. Used a Silca to pump it up to about 185 PSI.

Edit: If you're talking about their tubular clincher tire, then all is good. The lateral forces on the rim sidewalls are low with that design.

Last edited by taras0000; 08-27-15 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 08-27-15, 07:02 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
my sweetheart uses the strada lgg on her track training wheels. no complaints.

Spec: I had the S-Works Turbo a few seasons ago on road wheels. Super nice tire. One of the best clinchers I'd ever used, actually... just so soft and grippy. Very thin and very much NOT durable. but quite nice.
Good to know! I love her bike too! Looks so rad with the deep section carbon wheels!
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Old 09-03-15, 08:08 PM
  #128  
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Update on Conti Sprinter Gatorskins: They're now working ok on rollers. I guess they just needed some time on the track to get scrubbed in, but dang, they skated around like they were made out of plastic at first! Can recommend them them as a lower cost training tire now, they seem to ride fine on the track.
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Old 09-05-15, 08:39 PM
  #129  
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Scotchbrite (the fine china grade, white), some rubbing alcohol, and light scrubbing will take the mold release off of most tires.
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Old 09-05-15, 09:09 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Scotchbrite (the fine china grade, white), some rubbing alcohol, and light scrubbing will take the mold release off of most tires.
Was aware of mold release compound, and I'd scrubbed these down with a rag and alcohol. Never experienced the amount of slipping and sliding I experienced on rollers with these before, and I've ridden Vittoria, Conti, Veloflex, Soyo and Panaracer tubulars on these and whatever brand of clinchers and never had this. It was weird. But whatever, they're fine now!

Edit: I'm wondering if it's more to do with the tread pattern, which is a kind of fine, raised grid pattern??
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Old 09-09-15, 07:11 AM
  #131  
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Thanks gtrob for the recommendations on the tires (Vittoria Pista CS Elite). They arrived in 5 business days from the UK, and no taxes, which was great (and fast). Got them all glued up. They didn't require that much stretching and they went on real easy and required very little work to get them nice and straight.

Earlier this year I was racing and training on a set of loaner clinchers from a friend (I was delaying buying new tubular tiressince the track was going to close within a month or so for the summer). I realized putting these Ambrosio tubulars back on that it knocked a good 4 lbs of rotating weight off the bike!!! This bike is going to feel a lot faster with these wheels again!

Going to give them a go tonight.



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Old 10-29-15, 04:35 PM
  #132  
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Got myself some clincher pistards for training wheels. As such I need to get some new tyres. I'll be riding to and from the velodrome which is a 400m outdoor tarmac. What tyres should I be looking for?
Been looking at these

Wiggle | Vittoria Diamante Pro Light Folding Clincher Road Tyre | Road Race Tyres

I've also got these (Wiggle | Vittoria Corsa SC Open Clincher Road Tyre | Road Race Tyres) on my road bike and curious if I could use them as I reeeeeaaalllly like them but I seem to remember someone saying that you shouldn't be using tyres with changes in tread profile. Any advice wanted.
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Old 10-30-15, 12:14 AM
  #133  
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I train on the Pro light Vittorias including concrete outdoors and they hold up well. Can't comment though how they wear commuting to and from the track.
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Old 12-02-15, 01:35 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by nspace View Post
Thanks gtrob for the recommendations on the tires (Vittoria Pista CS Elite). They arrived in 5 business days from the UK, and no taxes, which was great (and fast). Got them all glued up. They didn't require that much stretching and they went on real easy and required very little work to get them nice and straight.
How did they go on wood @nspace? I live in London, UK and after much debate and reading this forum I also ordered some for riding indoors at Lee Valley (London 2012 track) and the occasional bit of outdoor racing at Herne Hill as they seemed a good compromise. Will be gluing mine up in next couple of weeks and hopefully get a ride in before the new year
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Old 12-02-15, 03:29 AM
  #135  
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Had a search and couldn't find the answer - what type of wider tubular do folks recommend for a wide disc like a Zipp Super 9, on an outdoors (concrete) track? I have tried the 22mm Vittoria Crono and just found them too narrow. Cheers !
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Old 12-02-15, 05:48 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by thearthurdog View Post
Had a search and couldn't find the answer - what type of wider tubular do folks recommend for a wide disc like a Zipp Super 9, on an outdoors (concrete) track? I have tried the 22mm Vittoria Crono and just found them too narrow. Cheers !
I'd suggest Conti Steher if your track is relatively clean of debris. Conti Sprinter if not.

Also, most tubulars don't come much bigger than 22 or 23. But, the Sprinter has a lot of rubber on it, which makes it wider.
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Old 12-02-15, 09:51 AM
  #137  
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What's the current consensus on conti tempo IIs? I've heard some good reviews and some bad reviews, but it seems like with conti, you need to ask every few months because they probably changed something. I love how my sonderklasses ride, but I have about a 50% success rate with getting a tire that isn't lumpy or with wavy base tape.
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Old 12-04-15, 09:32 AM
  #138  
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I have been riding a Temto II on my rear disc since september (250m indoor), it replaced an old sonderklasse 165 (4+ years). So far I can't tell the difference.
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Old 12-04-15, 10:48 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by MarkWW View Post
What's the current consensus on conti tempo IIs? I've heard some good reviews and some bad reviews, but it seems like with conti, you need to ask every few months because they probably changed something. I love how my sonderklasses ride, but I have about a 50% success rate with getting a tire that isn't lumpy or with wavy base tape.
my buddy Ian said that the older ones are super duper, but the newer ones are less grippy - but he can't remember how to tell the difference.
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Old 12-21-15, 04:07 PM
  #140  
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The Vittoria Pista CS, I've been told is a gamble on outdoor concrete for durability, just wondering if anyone has any experience with how they hold up?

Would see 90% of its use at Alpenrose as a raceday tire, I'll prolly keep sprinters on some training wheels.
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Old 12-21-15, 09:55 PM
  #141  
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Lots of guys at Alpenrose (particularly sprinters) use Vittoria Pistas for race day tires where durability is not a concern, and the CS is Vittoria's new "concrete track" tire. If you want a durable tire that also performs well as a race tire, I'd go Vittoria Corsa Evo CX (their top line road tubular). It's what was recommended to me and it's worked well for me over the past couple years.
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Old 12-26-15, 05:01 PM
  #142  
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Just because it came up in another thread, but for those new to track and looking to ride tubulars, GLUE YOUR TIRES! No tape. Most tracks will not allow tape and here are some reasons why. Tape doesn't penetrate the tires's basetape the way glue does, nor does it fill in the voids between tire and rim the way glue does. If you can't glue, then take them to a TRUSTED mechanic, or pay a friend whatever they ask (usually it's beer) to do it for you if they are proficient at it. A tire failure on the track can end up with dire outcomes for more than just the person on the failed wheel. Yes glue jobs fail on rare occasions, but it holds better than tape. Don't be lazy and inconsiderate of the consequences of not gluing properly. Do it right or just stick with clinchers, for everyone's sake.
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Old 12-28-15, 08:55 AM
  #143  
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Picking up this conversation from another thread.

Originally Posted by 1incpa View Post
The tape method you describe is how I've always heard it done for cross. But it's been at least a few years since I've heard of anyone using tape. I use glue, personally.
I've always done 2 coats of glue on the rim and tape, letting them dry completely between coats, then 1 more on the rim and install the tire with that wet. Maybe I've been wasting glue all this time?
Paul
I don't entirely understand the rationale behind multiple coats and have always had a bunch of questions about this - largely because I've heard a few people express the opinion that more layers of glue is somehow "stronger." Which does't make sense - when you apply another layer of glue to a dried layer, it dries and those two layers become one thick layer. What benefit does it provide? Is it flawed to think of glue in "layers" at all, since the point is to have the glue penetrate the basetape and adhere the whole thing to the rim? Does a thicker layer provide more opportunity for separation in that interface?

Is there a benefit to laying down thin layers so that they dry faster or more thoroughly before you add more glue on top of it?

I've always done one clean, consistent layer on the rim; one "layer" on the tire - although it's not really a layer, at all - it's about the glue soaking the basetape. I don't want "layers" on top of the basetape on the tire. And, if I'm re-gluing a tire, chances are good I'm trying to remove any dried glue that has layered on top of the basetape.

Anyone want to weigh in on their thoughts about this issue?
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Old 12-28-15, 10:41 AM
  #144  
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This is my understanding of tubular glue and such:

Tubular glue is a contact adhesive. Basically, the molecules in the glue form these strands that when wet are straightened out, but when the solvent dries off, these strands start kinking up and connecting to each other. Calvin Jones explained to me that it's kinda like velcro. lots of thin layers are recommended because basically it means these molecules (I wish I could remember what they're called) can kink together more. Think of it like a really dense sponge vs one with really big holes everywhere.

Most tubular tapes are bad because they're just like double stick tape. They don't have that mechanical bond that glue has. Also, most tapes are really narrow compared to modern rims and tire base tapes. The point of highest stress on a tire is right at the edge of the rim.

This brings us to cyclocross tubulars and tape. Rim shapes are designed to match the profile of the tire that's meant to be glued on, to increase contact area of the adhesive. That's why if you pump up an old timey 16mm tubular on something like a velocity major tom, you'll see a big ol' gap between the rim and tire. It's just not meant to mate. Now if you consider a traditional 19mm rim was designed for a 23mm tire, if you bump that tire up to, say, 38-40mm you'll have the opposite problem. The edges will touch, but the center won't snuggle up to the rim. That's why cx tape is used. It fills out that void to give that full contact area.

Which brings me to the last part, why do we use multiple layers? Because the surface irregularities of tires mean that if you only had one layer, there might be areas where the base tape and rim just don't contact. Building up a few layers (I do 3-4 thin layers) makes up for those surface irregularities.

And that's my story about tubular adhesives.

#csb
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Old 12-28-15, 10:46 AM
  #145  
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You know, I've never questioned it. It was how I was taught, and what I've always done.

In fact, when I used to build Formica counter tops (which is pretty much the same procedure), I'd use 2 coats of glue. Again, it was how I was taught to do it. I never questioned it.

I can tell you that I've been using this method on my wife's cross tubulars, which she generally runs at less than 20psi, and she's never rolled one.
I got my front wheel crossed up once on the track and dragged it sideways so hard it tore a hole in the tire and cracked a spoke on a Hed tri spoke wheel. But it stayed on the rim.

Not trying to start an argument or say you're doing it wrong. This is just what's worked for me.
Paul

Edit: Mark got his reply in while I was typing...
Thanks for that explanation, it makes sense.
I generally deflate the tire after it's straightened out and roll a dowel around the circumference to make sure the center of the tire is seated on the rim.
PI

Last edited by 1incpa; 12-28-15 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 12-28-15, 10:57 AM
  #146  
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It sounds like your method works well, too. I think the number of layers people use depends on the type of glue and just personal preference. Conti cement is a lot thinner than Vittoria for example. Somewhere there was a study that after a certain number of layers, the rolling resistance of a tire goes up because the tire moves around a little on the bed of glue.

Track tubular gluing seems to have a little bit of black art mixed in, too. I've heard about mechanics using their own home-made concoctions of tubular glue and carpet cement, for example. Before that I've heard stories of mechanics using shellac. And pursuiters apparently used to pull the base tape off their tires and glue a bare tire to the rim, with pieces of cork to fill the spoke holes.

And on the flip side, I think it was either Jan Heine or maybe even Jobst Brandt that said honestly the pressure a tire exerts on the rim is enough to hold it in place in most conditions. Even one layer of glue will "work" for most applications. I still don't trust that, though, but there are stories of triathletes leaving 6" sections of their wheels unglued to speed tire removal during a race.
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Old 12-28-15, 11:05 AM
  #147  
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I have a friend who tested his road tubulars by putting them on the wheels with no glue. He went for a ride and made sure to do some hard cornering and had no problems. Then he went home and glued the tires to the rims.

Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should.

I've heard of the shellac method, too, but never tried it.

And BTW, I like the Vittoria glue.
Paul
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Old 12-28-15, 11:33 AM
  #148  
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Thanks for the thoughts. I don't have an axe to grind on this and I agree that a lot of approaches will work fine for most people. Ultimately I think a rolled tire is going to be about an insufficient process, not a bad method.

I know a dude who bought a bike with tubular wheels and tires and rode it on a track a bunch of times before realizing that the tires weren't glued to the rims!

Mark's explanation makes sense to me - a thicker layer allows some fudge room for where the tire and rim don't perfectly meet. But: in order to have that fudge-layer/gap-filler, does the glue still need to be tacky? Does letting one thin layer dry and adding another one harden things too much? And, ultimately, are two thin layers any different than one thick layer?
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Old 12-28-15, 11:49 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
Ultimately I think a rolled tire is going to be about an insufficient process, not a bad method.
I agree 100%

Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
Mark's explanation makes sense to me - a thicker layer allows some fudge room for where the tire and rim don't perfectly meet. But: in order to have that fudge-layer/gap-filler, does the glue still need to be tacky? Does letting one thin layer dry and adding another one harden things too much? And, ultimately, are two thin layers any different than one thick layer?
Good questions, It'll take someone smarter than me to answer them...
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Old 12-29-15, 01:17 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
Mark's explanation makes sense to me - a thicker layer allows some fudge room for where the tire and rim don't perfectly meet. But: in order to have that fudge-layer/gap-filler, does the glue still need to be tacky? Does letting one thin layer dry and adding another one harden things too much? And, ultimately, are two thin layers any different than one thick layer?
My opinion is that a few thinner layers are better than one thick layer. Reason for this is that it allows for a more stable glue layer between tire and rim. One thick layer can be smudged/moved and that may leave some areas thinner than others between tire and rim. I've always glued two thinner (1/2 thickness) layers on the rim, one "regular thickness" on the base tape, then a fresh, regular layer on the rim again before adhering them together. This was how I was taught by my local mech whom I trust. The first layer on the rim is allowed to harden/tack up, before coming back to it and gluing it again. The solvent in the additional layers will soften the previous layers to a certain extent, which will allow for some glue migration once the tire is fully pressured. The mech explained that it kept enough glue under the tire all the way around the rim and from edge to edge, as well as having that last layer give you flexibility for surface irregularities.

Edit: I've always used Soyo cement, or Vittoria, preferring the Soyo. Never rolled a tire and needed to make sure I ate my wheaties that day to change a tube. Tried Fast-Tak as well, but that ruins your base tapes when you remove the tire, so once it's on, it stays on until worn out. Shellac is something I am interested in trying as I've heard that works quite well too.
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