Ask your small, random, track-related questions here
#4576
The bike industry thrives on making us think we need something that’s “stiffer”, “lighter”, or “faster”. When I worked in a bike shop, during training the owner told me that the key to selling high priced gear is to drop those three words during your description of the product and they will buy it.
He was right.
He was right.
After they walked out, the manager said, don't bother with all that, just tell them the better one is faster.
#4577
Senior Member
Does that exclude for any reasons? Software development is a part of software engineering. And yes, I have either engineer title and M.Sc.
Just for your further questions, I also got a special scholarship from president of state as a "new hope for country" or whatever they called it. And I missed only 0.01 point from my whole university career to receive a special money prize (big money) from our Ministry of Education. I also received 82 of 60 (sic!) points on my final physics graduation. I also have management skills and I was chef of IT departments and board advisor. Oh, and I am an security expert.
And for now, I mainly do consulting and training (both IT and managing) for companies such as Intel, IBM, Samsung, Motorola, Orange, Nokia among others. Oh, and of course almost all banks that exist in my country (including Citi Bank that I bet you know). And obviously some public institutions including European Parliament and military IT units.
So if your next question is if am I real, as you are based in Atlanta, I can gave you an address of one company with HQ based in your city that engineers flew from Atlanta to my country to meet me in person and got some advises from me. So you can make direct verification if needed.
Oh, and don't forget I am only 32 years old. I also visited about 50 countries, mainly due to my photojournalist work.
Any other questions? Or we can finally return to the track cycling topics?
#4579
Senior Member
Fortunately, it's my problem :-)
I presented you some proofs recently. You can drive to Norcross, GA 30092 to get more direct proofs. Fair enough. But I am not going to answer any more questions regarding my personal life, at least on public messageboard.
Oh no. Seriously? This was actually the main reason why I purchased your app. What was a reason to remove this? Are you willing to add it back any soon?
I presented you some proofs recently. You can drive to Norcross, GA 30092 to get more direct proofs. Fair enough. But I am not going to answer any more questions regarding my personal life, at least on public messageboard.
Oh no. Seriously? This was actually the main reason why I purchased your app. What was a reason to remove this? Are you willing to add it back any soon?
#4580
hey carleton and bartek, how about you two maybe stop addressing each other?
this forum is nice when we talk about track cycling and are collegial.
it's boring and polluted when you two crab at each other.
this forum is nice when we talk about track cycling and are collegial.
it's boring and polluted when you two crab at each other.
#4581
Senior Member
So, absolute numbers are absolute numbers. For cyclists, engineers and all other World :-)
Cheers!
EDIT: And I am up for removing these unrelated posts here. I believe [MENTION=34156]carleton[/MENTION] has credentials for it.
#4582
BTW, my daughter thinks I'm the best daddy in the world.
On a technical note:
So Bartek, aside from pedal tension, one of the reasons I really like the Shimano design over Look (and old Shimano) is that the front of an spd -sl cleat actually engages below the platform of the pedal. This design helps prevent the pedal from releasing when pulling back since the nose of the cleat will actually hit the pedal body when pulling directly back. So you really can't even make a direct apples-to-apples comparison about pedal tension of the two systems. Not that I would use speed plays, but that also can't really be compared.
On a technical note:
So Bartek, aside from pedal tension, one of the reasons I really like the Shimano design over Look (and old Shimano) is that the front of an spd -sl cleat actually engages below the platform of the pedal. This design helps prevent the pedal from releasing when pulling back since the nose of the cleat will actually hit the pedal body when pulling directly back. So you really can't even make a direct apples-to-apples comparison about pedal tension of the two systems. Not that I would use speed plays, but that also can't really be compared.
#4583
As for stiffness, until it's tested we don't know what's stiff and what is not. For example, every Japanese rider I know claims that frames get softer as they get older/used. But all science indicates that frames generally (metallic) get stiffer as they get fatigued through work hardening. What about carbon? Carbon doesn't fatigue, but maybe the resins breakdown with flexing or age? Deeper rims are often considered stiffer than shallower rims. However, if you don't do it right, the longer rim walls end up as a point of flex such that you can actually get break rub on a road bike when you lean it over in a turn.
So the Mavic Io. It looks really stiff. But it's not triangulated like a spoked wheel. Is it stiffer? I don't know, and I wouldn't trust myself to make the judgement. I do believe that confidence in equipment is important to go fast, so I can see why so many sprinters might convince themselves that it's a stiff wheel.
However, we don't even know if stiffness is even important (within reason).
All I know is that I can go reasonably quickly on a 25 year old disc and deep front wheel and I'll consider the evidence as we see more data.
So the Mavic Io. It looks really stiff. But it's not triangulated like a spoked wheel. Is it stiffer? I don't know, and I wouldn't trust myself to make the judgement. I do believe that confidence in equipment is important to go fast, so I can see why so many sprinters might convince themselves that it's a stiff wheel.
However, we don't even know if stiffness is even important (within reason).
All I know is that I can go reasonably quickly on a 25 year old disc and deep front wheel and I'll consider the evidence as we see more data.
#4584
Senior Member
#4585
Senior Member
Word on the street (never actually saw any hard data) was that the new Corimas were better than the Mavics in 5 spoke. But then factor in the good old Team GB. For all of their research and development, they are running a super special 3 spoke. 'nuff said.
Addressing another comment above, Look bought out Corima. Perhaps that was the catalyst behind the update. I tried to get a line on a Corima rear disc here in Australia, but they were non communicative post Look takeover.
Then, comparisons form track to TT/Tri use of front bladed spoke wheels are futile. Outdoor road racers deal with all manner of wind speeds and directions. Fighting with a bike to control it constantly over the course of a 90+km bike section is mentally and physically draining when it doesn't need to be. Despite what such riders might save in aero, the handling aspect well overrules those gains and so road use aero fronts are a compromise of aero and handling. Basically on the track, especialy indoor, all we really need to worry about is aero ~ a-la the front disc
Addressing another comment above, Look bought out Corima. Perhaps that was the catalyst behind the update. I tried to get a line on a Corima rear disc here in Australia, but they were non communicative post Look takeover.
Then, comparisons form track to TT/Tri use of front bladed spoke wheels are futile. Outdoor road racers deal with all manner of wind speeds and directions. Fighting with a bike to control it constantly over the course of a 90+km bike section is mentally and physically draining when it doesn't need to be. Despite what such riders might save in aero, the handling aspect well overrules those gains and so road use aero fronts are a compromise of aero and handling. Basically on the track, especialy indoor, all we really need to worry about is aero ~ a-la the front disc
#4586
Senior Member
So Bartek, aside from pedal tension, one of the reasons I really like the Shimano design over Look (and old Shimano) is that the front of an spd -sl cleat actually engages below the platform of the pedal. This design helps prevent the pedal from releasing when pulling back since the nose of the cleat will actually hit the pedal body when pulling directly back. So you really can't even make a direct apples-to-apples comparison about pedal tension of the two systems. Not that I would use speed plays, but that also can't really be compared.
Deeper rims are often considered stiffer than shallower rims.
#4587
Lapped 3x
I'm just going to say this. Just because the value of so.ething is unknown, doesn't invalidate it's properties. 1,2,3,4,X. X HAS A VALUE. To disregard it because you don't know it's value is leaving something on the table that can very well be useful. Before we had absolute values for things, we had relative comparisons. These comparisons are what became engineered values once there was a way to assign numbers to them. Before "engineering" we knew that bronze was in some ways better than wood, and iron was better than bronze. There were no numbers then; just experience.
#4588
Senior Member
I'm just going to say this. Just because the value of so.ething is unknown, doesn't invalidate it's properties. 1,2,3,4,X. X HAS A VALUE. To disregard it because you don't know it's value is leaving something on the table that can very well be useful. Before we had absolute values for things, we had relative comparisons. These comparisons are what became engineered values once there was a way to assign numbers to them. Before "engineering" we knew that bronze was in some ways better than wood, and iron was better than bronze. There were no numbers then; just experience.
Let's say the 16Nm is my minimum required tension for Look pedals. Then I would look up for spec of the Shimano pedals to get similar value if I would like to switch. Occasionally, it can be under or overrated as @tobukog mentioned about different way for cleat engaging. However, it's still a good start point, better than just "buy and try" IMHO.
#4589
Lapped 3x
Do you know the failure points of the bikes you purchase? What about the N/Degree of flexion that these frames can sustain? No. You and I and just about everyone else on this board has made many of their most expensive purchases based on the relative information that was received from others. That's why you started a thread asking other people's opinions on bikes that you didn't have any experience with.
Last edited by taras0000; 10-24-17 at 12:58 AM.
#4590
Senior Member
Actually I got this data for my road frame ;-)
But then lets go back to pedals and [MENTION=34156]carleton[/MENTION] explained this:
I definitely agree with him. However it works as long as min-max range is enough for any rider. This is unknown. So, the absolute numbers are your help without guessing. I hardly believe Shimano doesn't provide this data.
But then lets go back to pedals and [MENTION=34156]carleton[/MENTION] explained this:
Pedal exit tension is relative to the rider. A moderate setting for a big rider may render a smaller rider unable to escape! So, comparing pedal exit tension can't be done by looking at the pedals. One must also consider the rider's size and strength. So, we can't just say, "Set your pedals to min/medium/max tension..." as it is a relative setting.
I can exit vertically out of Shimano pedals set on max setting during a standing start but a 150lb rider couldn't even twist out of them on the middle setting.
I can exit vertically out of Shimano pedals set on max setting during a standing start but a 150lb rider couldn't even twist out of them on the middle setting.
#4591
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
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Whether I try something or not doesn't change the value of X in my previous example. I CAN use another rider's experience with equipment as long as that rider exceeds my equipment needs, and the equipment is not failing that rider. If Rider A is more powerful than Rider B, then Rider A's equipment choices will suffice for rider B, regardless of knowing the failure point of said equipment. That's how relative experience works.
Do you know the failure points of the bikes you purchase? What about the N/Degree of flexion that these frames can sustain? No. You and I and just about everyone else on this board has made many of their most expensive purchases based on the relative information that was received from others. That's why you started a thread asking other people's opinions on bikes that you didn't have any experience with.
Do you know the failure points of the bikes you purchase? What about the N/Degree of flexion that these frames can sustain? No. You and I and just about everyone else on this board has made many of their most expensive purchases based on the relative information that was received from others. That's why you started a thread asking other people's opinions on bikes that you didn't have any experience with.
With bikes, with me weighing well over 200 lbs, my set up may be wary too harsh for a 150 lb rider and they may end up being slower as the bike is too twitchy and moves all over the track on them, which makes them slower in the end as "smoother is faster" and they can't be smooth on my bike. What is best for one track will not necessarily be best for another track due to track construction materials, radius of turns, bumps, etc.
#4592
Senior Member
Just received a brand new SRM Track Science Power Meter. What chainring bolts do you recommend to use with it?
Does the knurled Dura Ace stainless steel bolts fit properly or I should rather go with no-knurled version such as Sugino aluminium bolts?
Does the knurled Dura Ace stainless steel bolts fit properly or I should rather go with no-knurled version such as Sugino aluminium bolts?
#4593
Elitist
Thread Starter
Actually I got this data for my road frame ;-)
But then lets go back to pedals and [MENTION=34156]carleton[/MENTION] explained this:
I definitely agree with him. However it works as long as min-max range is enough for any rider. This is unknown. So, the absolute numbers are your help without guessing. I hardly believe Shimano doesn't provide this data.
But then lets go back to pedals and [MENTION=34156]carleton[/MENTION] explained this:
I definitely agree with him. However it works as long as min-max range is enough for any rider. This is unknown. So, the absolute numbers are your help without guessing. I hardly believe Shimano doesn't provide this data.
Shimano SPD-SL have been the most popular road and track pedals for decades without providing this number you want. You are the only one I've heard demand it.
Last edited by carleton; 10-24-17 at 09:59 AM.
#4594
Senior Member
Most of ss/fixie services in my area don't use numbers either. I remember when I mounted my Sugino77 squar taper bb and I ask how much torque is needed. The guy (and then I checked in few other popular services where I get the same answer) answered nobody cares about numbers, use as much power in your hand as you have and you will be good Yeah...
Dude, you come off as one of those, "I know a lot about road riding (which is more complex than track) so track should be easy and I know more than those guys" dude. This is a common misconception.
That's like an electrical guitar player assuming, "Classical guitar is easy. How hard can it be? They don't even use amps! lol "
That's like an electrical guitar player assuming, "Classical guitar is easy. How hard can it be? They don't even use amps! lol "
(I played on bass guitar in the past and released few records, I wasn't talented player but got good technical background about equipment)
#4595
Elitist
Thread Starter
You get some examples from me and @divebrain why numbers matters. I like numbers, you don't need them. It's fine.
I got SRM files older than you.
You know a little about a little and think you know a lot about a lot.
Have you noticed that you aren't adding anything to the conversations or collective knowledge.
Why would I expect any less?
Last edited by carleton; 10-24-17 at 10:33 AM.
#4596
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
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You get some examples from me and @divebrain why numbers matters. I like numbers, you don't need them. It's fine.
#4600
Senior Member
Dude, again? Seriously? It's really childish. Please, relax, go for biking, get some positive vibes. If all you want to do is offending me, quoting only less important parts of my posts and using GIF animations as arguments, I am ok with this, just please use Private Message and don't make a garbage here. It is not constructive. I understand that you like to be in center of universe but seriously, nobody cares about others ambitions on the Internet. This forum has some really nice atmosphere compared to many others and I am really sorry to others and feel guilty that you didn't impress myself when you presented your photography/iOs portfolio when nobody asked for it. I do not feel better than you, in fact I don't care about my ambitions, I know my value and I don't look for any applause. All I was doing is answering to your attacks all the time. Now, I know it wasn't smart. I should simply ignore this self-glorification and let you keep yourself on the top. People make mistakes. I did it to. I am sorry for it. This is why I asked to stop this. This is why I ask again. I even purchased your paid application on iPhone mainly as a good sign from my side (and I still miss this Head to Head TT feature though!).
I guess sometimes there can be some misunderstanding due to fact that English is not my native language and I write sometimes in more direct way. But seriously there was not offense from me, I am here in the defense mode ;-)
Best regards,
Bart
I guess sometimes there can be some misunderstanding due to fact that English is not my native language and I write sometimes in more direct way. But seriously there was not offense from me, I am here in the defense mode ;-)
Best regards,
Bart