Kapusta

spdntrxi

yes and sometimes no

my "gravel" bike weighs in at around 7.5kg so not super heavy...with so called "fast" 30c tires it's a slug and a half. I have to make 20-25w more to retain the same speed. With fast clinchers and Turbo cottons tires I get most of this speed back, but the gravel bike is still ~1.5kg heavier then my weightweenie road bike was and that is definitely felt in the hills. So in short for me the 2 areas the gravel bike struggles is :
1. Fast group rides (especially with wide 30c tires)
2. Steep climbs

I will say it's a dream to descend on with disc brakes... it's definitely nice to have a quiver of purpose built wheels and tires for different occasions.

GlennR

I purchased a Cannondale SuperX a few years ago to be my winter and foul weather bike. I did make some changes to make it closer to a road bike rather than a CX bike.

1) put the same saddle on that's on my Emonda
2) replaced the 44cm handle bars with 42cm
3) replaced the alloy seatpost with a carbon seatpost
4) got a second set of wheels with Bontrager AW2 all weather 32mm tubeless tires

The bike has Sram 1x with a 11-32 cassette and 40T chainring. It also has hydro disc brakes.

It's a awesome bike and i've done group rides of 40+ miles. It rides like a Cadillac while my Emonda rides like a Porsche.

Each has their place.

63rickert

This thread is still alive?

Here's a link to a famous photo. This is already a copy of a copy of a copy so linky-time. https://www.asisucedio.co/1963-cochise-rodriguez/

That is the great Cochise Rodriguez in the lead. On a road bike. When I met Cochise I asked him about this. He started by saying this is a nice photo and he was glad the photographer was standing there. But lots of road racing in Colombia in the old days was like this. Races where the 'pavement' was just not there, or the road had washed out since last time the promoter checked, and the racers would find the finish line or not in the middle of the night. He also said his favorite tire for this sort of thing was Clement Campionato del Mondo, 29mm of silk tubular. But they usually could not be found and he raced on anything and everything.

Of course 'road bike' back in '63 meant a steel frame with room for 29mm tires plus broken spoke clearance. There was a lot of knowledge about rough roads cooked into those old frames. Current gravel bikes are pretty much entirely derived from mountain bike practice. Somebody's idea of a faster MTB. Both approaches have some validity and both do work. Expect to see lots of experiments the next few years. Expect to see lots of redundant exploration of what were blind alleys fifty years ago. Expect lots of re-discovery of old principles sold as new and improved

mstateglfr 

- A 16.5# bike on fast 30mm tires feels like 'a slug and a half'?
- And your road bike is 13.2#?

You struggle on fast group rides on a 16.5# bike with quality 30mm tires. And you struggle to climb on a 16.5# bike.


Just wanted to accurately recap all that.
Your riding ability is better than 95% of cyclists on here and what you need for a road bike and gravel bike is vastly different than most. Kudos for being so fast and strong.

burnthesheep

I've taken the cyclocross bike on the group ride twice recently. No issues.

It's a touch heavier, touch slower steering, 28mm or 30mm Gators (can't recall), canti brakes, 1x with suboptimal road gear range (40t and 11-28)...........etc.....

I can understand the "cost" difference in wattage between two bikes mattering.........if spending a good time right at threshold. At threshold power yeah, 20w matters. If not, 20w ain't gonna matter in a one minute 600 watt hill sprint or a 400ish watt few minute hill climb. The ratio of output to loss is just not important for a group ride. (Yes, according to math, it matters, but you probably won't succeed in a hill breakaway because of it).

You've either got enough power for that kind of attack or move, or you don't. Or you're too fat all-together.

garciawork

I just have the one bike built up right now, an RLT steel, with 42mm Specialized Sawtooths, and it has been great as a road bike (and gravel, of course) but I am not noticeable slower.

spdntrxi

it's actually the other way around on your recap ....I'm weak and looking for every advantage I can get... my FTP is sub 300 and I'm not a lightweight guy.

quality 30c tires where Schwalbe G-Speeds... and I put speed in quotes because I was being sarcastic as hell.. I dont know what the Crr increase compared to TC's... but it seemed HUGE and my power meter numbers comparing multiple segments back it up. My road bike was down to 12.8lbs.. so yes riding around on something getting close to 17lbs uphill is noticeable for me. Neither bike is aero (fat round tubes) so this is where I go next. The gravel bike is fun.. no doubt and it's opening up new routes for me so that is always good.

WhyFi

The G-One Speed/S-One are awesome tires. The worst Crr tested on bicyclerollingresistance.com is the Lugano, Schwalbe's entry level road tire. Even then, the difference between it and the very best tire tested is 14w - not close to your 20-25w estimate and the G-One Speed should be considerably better (I have several thousand miles on them and wouldn't buy another bike that couldn't clear them). Look elsewhere for your excuse.

spdntrxi

WhyFi

I didn't say that it did, but I will say that it's not telling the whole story. Again - you need to look for your "20-25w" elsewhere.

Metieval

Of the Jari and the Felt hard choice.

based on you're criteria and location, the Felt has a lower standover. might be better for city riding?

My thoughts would be, push you towards the Felt with the 650x47 byway, which might suffice for 100% of your riding. Worse case scenario if you found the 650x47 too heavy for your day to day riding, you could pick up some WTB KOM light and shoe them with the WTB 30c Exposure. Nothing would change dramatically with Geo.

JayNYC

Thanks for the input. I wasn't going to bump the thread to say this, but now that it's been bumped…

I've ordered a bike… A 2018 Jari 1.3. Performance Bike had a decent end of model year sale on them.
There are just two differences with the 2019 Jari 1.1 1) the brakes (TRP HY/DR vs the new 105 pure hydraulic system on the new model), and 2) the rims and tires (Stan's No Tubes Grail S1 w/ Clement X'Plor USH 700C x 35 vs WTB KOM Light w/ Panaracer Gravelking SK 700C x 38). Those differences make the old model that I got 1.3 pounds heavier. I know the new 105 brakes are better, not so sure about the rims (the old rims can handle a broader range of tire sizes). IMHO, those two things didn't justify spending 50% more for the new version of the bike.

Finding bikes to test ride was nearly impossible. I called a half dozen Fuji dealers and none of them carried any type of Jari. One even asked "Jari – is that a bike?" Then the big chain bike store here (Danny's) had a "warehouse sale". They did have one Jari – but it was one size too small for me and Tiagra rather than 105, so I rode that and a $3K carbon Orbea Terra (that they had marked down to $2K). The test ride on the Jari was only so helpful given that the bike wasn't my size. But I went over every pothole and rough bit of asphalt I could find and yes the ride wasn't as compliant as the carbon Terra, but it was OK. And I was a bit shocked that I instantly loved the flared drop bars that a lot of people hate.

In talking the the various dealers, none carried any of the gravel bikes that were on my shortlist – a few carried stuff from my "B" list, but that was all. NYC may have a crazy number of bike shops, but very few of them understand why a New Yorker would want a gravel bike. Yet, everyone I know who wants a new bike wants a gravel bike – that's 3-4 people other than me. So I don't feel guilty ordering online and not patronizing a LBS. I tried.

Performance Bike lets you return it as long as it's in "new" condition so I'll just do safe/clean rides the first few weeks (no dirt/gravel), but I think I'm gonna like it. Sure, there are better bikes out there, but this one was a decent price and meets most everything on my rather picky wish list.

I'll probably wait until the spring to buy another wheelset. The 700x35s will be completely adequate for fall and winter riding.

cyclintom

And you and I agree. But I don't think that you'd do a Cat 1 Crit on your bike either. I was working the half way stop of a double century and a century this weekend. There was some guy there with some sort of a Carbon Fiber specialized that had what must have been 30 mm tires with very fine tread. Since he was on the double and he got there before the century riders, he was all hell and gone fast. But darned if I could see any fenders which apparently are supposed to be all the rage with fast riders.

WhyFi

Very cool, Jay - enjoy it. Many swear that the Hy/Rd brakes are pretty close to the performance and feel of full hydro and, if you really wanted to, you could upgrade down the line for a couple hundred bucks. I liked the flare on my gravel bike bars enough that I opted for some (lesser) flare on the more dedicated road bike, too.

Now on to the winter wheelset hand-wringing, eh?

Metieval

Performance Bike is a cookie cutter store, which is fail on their part. as in all stores get the same stuff regardless. kinda dumb but.... hey they have a sweet return policy.

the Grail wheels are nice wheels. on the heavy side, but strong.

JayNYC

spdntrxi

Nope... I collected enough data with segments many multiple miles long..downhills, uphills. Looked at wind conditions.. etc. It's clear to me it was 20w+ I like the tires too, dont get my wrong but they were not "fast" for me...well compared to turbo cottons with latex. My position on the gravel bike is actually lower (more aggressive ) then my old road bike. The head tube on my road bike was pretty tall... which was one reason why I was itching to sell it. Maybe ding me 5w for disc brakes but again my position is lower on the gravel bike (not wind tunnel tested) So I think I am telling the whole story and it's my story anyhow.

I have the 30c GSpeeds tires on another wheelset ( for light gravel/road mix).. and am going to try Schwalbe Pro-One in 28c on another ( for mainly road). I've had the 25c on my road bike before on a non-aero wheelset and felt they were pretty fast.

WhyFi

Schwalbe rates the G-One Speeds as being among their fastest (on a scale of 1 to 6) road tires, along with the likes of the Pro One, which is one of the fastest tires out there. While bicyclerollingresistance.com hasn't directly tested G-One Speed, the results of all of the other Schwalbes that they have tested (Pro One, One, Durano, Lugano, etc) fall in to an order that corresponds pretty nicely with Schwalbe's ratings. Interestingly, brr.com tested the Pro One at 11.6w at 100psi and they tested this Schwalbe at 24w at 55psi, a difference of 12.4w, significantly less than the difference you propose -


And you really expect that others should believe that the G-Ones are in the 30w+ range based on your "data"?

Yeah, sure. You stick to your story, though - I've wasted enough time on your silliness, so I'm done.

spdntrxi

Do you ride on a drum... I dont ? so yeah sticking to my "story" backed by my "real data" taken on real roads. Silly? because you disagree ? I'm glad you are done because all you got is someone else data.. go with it. It's nice and all.... I purchased pro-ones before because of that site, but I dont take it as gospel... I like to do my own testing as well. Maybe anecdotal for you, but it's repeatable for me.. so it is what it is.

mstateglfr 

haha, bitter much? Spoon never said what you are claiming. No need to act foolish.


*edited to ensure I am not name calling and instead am just likening one's wording to an undesirable approach to life.*

Siu Blue Wind

No need to be so harsh.

mstateglfr 

and here i thought it was restrained.

point taken though- next time ill let the inaccurate representation of a discussion go without laughing and calling it what it is.

Siu Blue Wind

Thank you. It was the name calling that was the issue, not the pointing out of inaccurate info...

Kapusta