Practical advantages of Carbon over Aluminum track frames (beyond aero)?
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You won’t need different bikes for different tracks. Basically, track bike angles have evolved as the speeds have increased and the move from shallow 333-400m tracks to steep 166-250m tracks happened.
Also, many “sweet street fixies” that are labeled as “track bikes” have a road geometry that pales in comparison to one with a modern track geometry.
The most dramatic thing I’ve seen in terms of multiple bikes is one bike for TTs (with aerobars) and one for mass start or sprints. A more relaxed (“sluggish”) geometry helps with holding a great line. Agile handling is preferred for mass start and sprinting.
Also, many “sweet street fixies” that are labeled as “track bikes” have a road geometry that pales in comparison to one with a modern track geometry.
The most dramatic thing I’ve seen in terms of multiple bikes is one bike for TTs (with aerobars) and one for mass start or sprints. A more relaxed (“sluggish”) geometry helps with holding a great line. Agile handling is preferred for mass start and sprinting.
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Study cadence, not power.
Modeling cadence, speed, and heart rate over time (preferably every 1/2 second) can tell you 95% of what’s happening with you and your bike. Adding power data only gets you that extra 5%.
Power is gennerally used to monitor fatigue...or make numbers to brag about on forums
Max Speed and Average Speed are what determines who wins and who loses. Cadence is how you get there.
Keeping with the auto theme: Cadence is your tachometer. There exists a sweet spot.
Modeling cadence, speed, and heart rate over time (preferably every 1/2 second) can tell you 95% of what’s happening with you and your bike. Adding power data only gets you that extra 5%.
Power is gennerally used to monitor fatigue...or make numbers to brag about on forums
Max Speed and Average Speed are what determines who wins and who loses. Cadence is how you get there.
Keeping with the auto theme: Cadence is your tachometer. There exists a sweet spot.
#28
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You won’t need different bikes for different tracks. Basically, track bike angles have evolved as the speeds have increased and the move from shallow 333-400m tracks to steep 166-250m tracks happened.
Also, many “sweet street fixies” that are labeled as “track bikes” have a road geometry that pales in comparison to one with a modern track geometry.
The most dramatic thing I’ve seen in terms of multiple bikes is one bike for TTs (with aerobars) and one for mass start or sprints. A more relaxed (“sluggish”) geometry helps with holding a great line. Agile handling is preferred for mass start and sprinting.
Also, many “sweet street fixies” that are labeled as “track bikes” have a road geometry that pales in comparison to one with a modern track geometry.
The most dramatic thing I’ve seen in terms of multiple bikes is one bike for TTs (with aerobars) and one for mass start or sprints. A more relaxed (“sluggish”) geometry helps with holding a great line. Agile handling is preferred for mass start and sprinting.
Study cadence, not power.
Modeling cadence, speed, and heart rate over time (preferably every 1/2 second) can tell you 95% of what’s happening with you and your bike. Adding power data only gets you that extra 5%.
Power is gennerally used to monitor fatigue...or make numbers to brag about on forums
Max Speed and Average Speed are what determines who wins and who loses. Cadence is how you get there.
Keeping with the auto theme: Cadence is your tachometer. There exists a sweet spot.
Modeling cadence, speed, and heart rate over time (preferably every 1/2 second) can tell you 95% of what’s happening with you and your bike. Adding power data only gets you that extra 5%.
Power is gennerally used to monitor fatigue...or make numbers to brag about on forums
Max Speed and Average Speed are what determines who wins and who loses. Cadence is how you get there.
Keeping with the auto theme: Cadence is your tachometer. There exists a sweet spot.
There are variables that affect HR and power output on any particular day, but if I know the course and my average speed target to nurture, then it's just up to the cadence I can reasonably sustain that day while keeping the average speed within range. I need simple, and it turns out that those two things are simple and manageable for me; doesn't mean it's applicable to others, it's just what I've settled into. That's on road, but in track we're flying blind in races; that was an interesting realization for me. In training, I'll do some of the basic info monitoring to develop a feel for it. I'm truly a novice in track, so I don't want to get too mired in the data, but having familiarity with basic metrics in training will be a good learning experience. There are so many who are expert with this stuff, super knowledgeable and precise. Part of me wanting to keep things simple is....just having fun. I want to be competitive, but if I get too over-data'd, I'm afraid I'll lose some touch with the simple thrilling experience of riding my bike and going fast among friends who enjoy the same thing. That's actually one of the most important metrics, one which doesn't have measurement or comparison.
Last edited by Super D; 11-06-18 at 08:55 PM.
#29
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#30
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https://fiftypointoneracing.com/asset.../materials.jpg
Last edited by Super D; 11-06-18 at 09:05 PM.
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Super, maybe read this thread before you buy a power meter. They are not all the same.
https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...computers.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...computers.html
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Because of the *multiple* angled surfaces of the track, different head tube angles and fork offsets have dramatically different effects on handling. And that’s on a single velodrome. If the rider travels to other velodromes of different dimensions, there will be different experiences.
...then factor in rider speed.
I would imagine that this is similar to adjusting caster and camber on a race car. When it’s right, it’s awesome. When it’s not, then confidence plummets.
...then factor in rider speed.
I would imagine that this is similar to adjusting caster and camber on a race car. When it’s right, it’s awesome. When it’s not, then confidence plummets.
Not sure if those are just superstitions or based in reality.
#33
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Super, maybe read this thread before you buy a power meter. They are not all the same.
https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...computers.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...computers.html
Back to frames, any thoughts on what you think the best bang for the buck is in carbon aero track frames if you were to suggest something with the impossible combination of Good, Cheap, and Fast?
I'm realizing after tweaking my cockpit again that I really need a longer top tube. The 58cm Felt aluminum frame I have is just too short for my long monkey arms. I've swapped up from a 130mm to a 140mm stem to get arm and body positioning better for sprints, and it's good now, but the way the bike is set up, it would be about 4-5cm over the limit for endurance events...Not good. If I get a longer top tube, this problem will go away.
#34
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depends... for the absolute fastest pursuit frame (barring the new Felt and possibly the new Argon) for reasonable ish money it's the T4. After that everything else is a step down. (again, just in the pursuit world) You're looking at ~$2k used / $4k new
It's not the greatest all around bike though if you want something to do it all.
Budget... the cheapest all carbon option from a "brand name" is probably the Fuji Track Elite. That's what I bought, it tested ok for me in the tunnel, and you're looking at under $2k for a frame, especially if you find a closeout deal. It's a bit more rounded bike that can double duty, but you're giving up some watts to the T4 for certain.
Cheapest budget - the no-name frames that are the same as the Planet X Koichi's seem to be pretty ok. With all the caveats of buying a no name frame. ~$500 on ebay for a frame
It's not the greatest all around bike though if you want something to do it all.
Budget... the cheapest all carbon option from a "brand name" is probably the Fuji Track Elite. That's what I bought, it tested ok for me in the tunnel, and you're looking at under $2k for a frame, especially if you find a closeout deal. It's a bit more rounded bike that can double duty, but you're giving up some watts to the T4 for certain.
Cheapest budget - the no-name frames that are the same as the Planet X Koichi's seem to be pretty ok. With all the caveats of buying a no name frame. ~$500 on ebay for a frame
#36
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While I do totally agree, the truth is there are very few companies that are going to make an aero'd out aluminum frame in this day and age. I'd guess the Fifty Point One is at the top of that list, but I don't think it's in the same league as something like a T4. (aerodynamically)
#38
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While I do totally agree, the truth is there are very few companies that are going to make an aero'd out aluminum frame in this day and age. I'd guess the Fifty Point One is at the top of that list, but I don't think it's in the same league as something like a T4. (aerodynamically)
#39
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depends... for the absolute fastest pursuit frame (barring the new Felt and possibly the new Argon) for reasonable ish money it's the T4. After that everything else is a step down. (again, just in the pursuit world) You're looking at ~$2k used / $4k new
It's not the greatest all around bike though if you want something to do it all.
Budget... the cheapest all carbon option from a "brand name" is probably the Fuji Track Elite. That's what I bought, it tested ok for me in the tunnel, and you're looking at under $2k for a frame, especially if you find a closeout deal. It's a bit more rounded bike that can double duty, but you're giving up some watts to the T4 for certain.
Cheapest budget - the no-name frames that are the same as the Planet X Koichi's seem to be pretty ok. With all the caveats of buying a no name frame. ~$500 on ebay for a frame
It's not the greatest all around bike though if you want something to do it all.
Budget... the cheapest all carbon option from a "brand name" is probably the Fuji Track Elite. That's what I bought, it tested ok for me in the tunnel, and you're looking at under $2k for a frame, especially if you find a closeout deal. It's a bit more rounded bike that can double duty, but you're giving up some watts to the T4 for certain.
Cheapest budget - the no-name frames that are the same as the Planet X Koichi's seem to be pretty ok. With all the caveats of buying a no name frame. ~$500 on ebay for a frame
While I do totally agree, the truth is there are very few companies that are going to make an aero'd out aluminum frame in this day and age. I'd guess the Fifty Point One is at the top of that list, but I don't think it's in the same league as something like a T4. (aerodynamically)
Yep, I'm looking for 60cm-61cm top tube lengths. Pretty limited selections out there on a budget. Maybe I should just shorten my arms? I have quite a few different types of saws and a dremel tool...
#40
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Honestly that strawman argument *should not apply to anyone asking the question about the fastest frame. Nowadays I just assume when people are asking about "the fastest" they've done the bare minimum due diligences, like does the bike fit. I'm sure not all have, but they're not the people the fastest xxx is going to help anyways
#41
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What people often overlooked is that the frame makes up a small portion of the aerodynamic equation, and falls behind rider, helmet, and wheels. Those each contribute more than the frame does. Guess which frame ends up being better if a roumd tubed aluminum frame puts the rider in a more aerodynamic position than a T4?
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#45
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Well...there is "The fastest" and there is "reasonably fast enough".
The "-est" often comes up in cycling when people want to buy stuff. Stiffest, fastest, strongest, lightest, etc... There is only one answer to each of those questions. There is only one stiffest frame. One fastest frame. One strongest frame. One lightest frame.
Let's say that the LOOK 496 (whatever it's called now, T96 for Tokyo 2020?) is the fastest and it's $10,000USD with a 9-12 month lag time after purchase (both are real, btw). When a rider asks, "what is the fastest?", do way say "LOOK 496" and does the rider get that or nothing at all?
It's not that black and white.
Then the question gets modified like so:
- What's the fastest that's less than $4,000? (LOOK 496 does not)
- What's the fastest that I can get this month? (LOOK 496 will not)
- What's the fastest available in my country? (LOOK 496 might not)
- What's the fastest that's UCI legal?
- What's the fastest that comes in size 60cm? (LOOK 496 does not)
- What's the fastest that doesn't have seatpost issues?
- What's the fastest that doesn't have dropout spreading issues?
- What's the fastest that doesn't have a proprietary stem or seatpost? (LOOK 496 does not)
- What's the fastest that has good customer service and support? (LOOK 496 does not)
See what I mean?
It's never really just one simple question.
What if there is another frame that is 95% as fast as the LOOK 496, but is:
- Less than $4,000
- Available this month
- Available in my country.
- Is UCI legal.
- Comes in 60cm
- Does not have seatpost issues.
- Does not have dropout spreading issues.
- Uses standard stems and seatposts
- Has good service and support
How might that sound to said rider?
The "-est" often comes up in cycling when people want to buy stuff. Stiffest, fastest, strongest, lightest, etc... There is only one answer to each of those questions. There is only one stiffest frame. One fastest frame. One strongest frame. One lightest frame.
Let's say that the LOOK 496 (whatever it's called now, T96 for Tokyo 2020?) is the fastest and it's $10,000USD with a 9-12 month lag time after purchase (both are real, btw). When a rider asks, "what is the fastest?", do way say "LOOK 496" and does the rider get that or nothing at all?
It's not that black and white.
Then the question gets modified like so:
- What's the fastest that's less than $4,000? (LOOK 496 does not)
- What's the fastest that I can get this month? (LOOK 496 will not)
- What's the fastest available in my country? (LOOK 496 might not)
- What's the fastest that's UCI legal?
- What's the fastest that comes in size 60cm? (LOOK 496 does not)
- What's the fastest that doesn't have seatpost issues?
- What's the fastest that doesn't have dropout spreading issues?
- What's the fastest that doesn't have a proprietary stem or seatpost? (LOOK 496 does not)
- What's the fastest that has good customer service and support? (LOOK 496 does not)
See what I mean?
It's never really just one simple question.
What if there is another frame that is 95% as fast as the LOOK 496, but is:
- Less than $4,000
- Available this month
- Available in my country.
- Is UCI legal.
- Comes in 60cm
- Does not have seatpost issues.
- Does not have dropout spreading issues.
- Uses standard stems and seatposts
- Has good service and support
How might that sound to said rider?
#47
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I guess if the rider needs 20 hoops jumped through, they need to expand on their requirements past what someone would assume was a reasonable answer. If someone is truly so proportionally unusual that they can't be properly fit to *most* commonly available bikes in offered sizes, they need to pony up a little money to be properly fit before purchasing a bike. There are world class fitters all over the USA, and certainly in other countries as well.
I have met very few people who needed more reach than a 58 T4 provided... fwiw that's giving you very similar (or more) stack reach to a 60cm Felt TK1 or a XXL Fuji Track Elite. Again... all I was saying was that for a bike you could walk into your LBS and say "I want this" and expect it there in a week, the T4 was the fastest (again..pursuit) reasonable option.
but again, I understand you can build a theoretical argument against anything.
I have met very few people who needed more reach than a 58 T4 provided... fwiw that's giving you very similar (or more) stack reach to a 60cm Felt TK1 or a XXL Fuji Track Elite. Again... all I was saying was that for a bike you could walk into your LBS and say "I want this" and expect it there in a week, the T4 was the fastest (again..pursuit) reasonable option.
but again, I understand you can build a theoretical argument against anything.
Last edited by Morelock; 11-30-18 at 06:45 AM.
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I guess if the rider needs 20 hoops jumped through, they need to expand on their requirements past what someone would assume was a reasonable answer. If someone is truly so proportionally unusual that they can't be properly fit to *most* commonly available bikes in offered sizes, they need to pony up a little money to be properly fit before purchasing a bike. There are world class fitters all over the USA, and certainly in other countries as well.
I have met very few people who needed more reach than a 58 T4 provided... fwiw that's giving you very similar (or more) stack reach to a 60cm Felt TK1 or a XXL Fuji Track Elite. Again... all I was saying was that for a bike you could walk into your LBS and say "I want this" and expect it there in a week, the T4 was the fastest (again..pursuit) reasonable option.
but again, I understand you can build a theoretical argument against anything.
I have met very few people who needed more reach than a 58 T4 provided... fwiw that's giving you very similar (or more) stack reach to a 60cm Felt TK1 or a XXL Fuji Track Elite. Again... all I was saying was that for a bike you could walk into your LBS and say "I want this" and expect it there in a week, the T4 was the fastest (again..pursuit) reasonable option.
but again, I understand you can build a theoretical argument against anything.
Most people who want the "[adjective]-est" frame never get it. My post above explains why.
If everyone could have the "[adjective]-est" frame, we'd all be riding one of maybe 3-4 different frames...kinda like we all ride one of 3-4 different crankset options...because they match criteria like that I've mention above
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I have met very few people who needed more reach than a 58 T4 provided... fwiw that's giving you very similar (or more) stack reach to a 60cm Felt TK1 or a XXL Fuji Track Elite. Again... all I was saying was that for a bike you could walk into your LBS and say "I want this" and expect it there in a week, the T4 was the fastest (again..pursuit) reasonable option.
but again, I understand you can build a theoretical argument against anything.
but again, I understand you can build a theoretical argument against anything.
I have noticed that the largest size of the Look Madison frameset has even more reach at 460mm.
#50
Senior Member
@carleton again, I agree with you in practice. It's why I'm on a track elite instead of a T4 despite my interests being mainly on Pursuit. The cost vs. performance upgrade (4x cost vs. not 4x upgrade!) didn't make sense, and I'm a cheapskate at heart despite knowing it was a bit of a tradeoff.
But in cranksets, there's really only the Dura Ace, right?
But in cranksets, there's really only the Dura Ace, right?