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Has A&S Changed Your Behavior?

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Has A&S Changed Your Behavior?

Old 01-25-19, 06:30 PM
  #26  
Paul Barnard
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I did a 32 mile ride on the MUP this afternoon. I had a several great examples of colors and movement and sometimes both, making a big difference in how easily I picked up riders. At the start of the ride the sun was obscured by a thin layer of clouds. I could see faint shadows from the trees. A rider wearing a high vis green helmet came toward me. It really stood out from the background. A guy wearing blaze pink shoes passed me. As he increased his distance from me, I purposefully swept left and right visually, each time the movement of the color caught my attention. This past year Louisiana approved blaze pink for hunting, and I can see why. Another rider dressed in complete black was approaching me about a half mile away. I could tell there was an object there, but against the background of vegetation I couldn't tell if it was a pedestrian, bicyclist or something else. Then for some unknown reason, the rider started weaving slightly. I could then tell it was a bicyclist. When I ride on roads, it is often rural backroads with light traffic. One of my strategies for being seen has always been to to a little weaving when a car approaching from behind is still well back.

The feedback on this thread has been incredibly helpful. I am very grateful. Please keep it coming!
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Old 01-25-19, 07:11 PM
  #27  
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I think I have changed somewhat... Reading the "helmet" thread for years I have actually went for a few rides without a helmet... Why...??? because I realised that a helmet isn't as good as most people think... Yes It IS better to wear a helmet that not, but... what exactly IS the benefit, other than not getting a rash, or at best 1/2 as much of a head ache/concussion.. and.. having said that I still wear a helmet 99% of my rides...
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Old 01-25-19, 07:22 PM
  #28  
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I have gained a few things from the forums which I've factored into my riding (not sure if it was A and S or another) - example - suggestion that if you point your helmet mounted light at a car you should wag your head while doing so to create a moving light source, which attracts attention so much better than a steady light. I've also benefited from personal conversation with other cyclists: heard a story on a light rail train from a guy who got t-boned by a fellow cyclist on a bike trail and the subsequent, really severe injuries from which he was still recovering. Bike trails seem more safe than they actually are, in my experience.
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Old 01-25-19, 11:24 PM
  #29  
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Reading A&S has helped me develop a great deal more tolerance for bonehead posters ... it only took about seven temporary bans until I developed the capacity not to jump into a cesspool and get into a filth-slinging contest with obviously obnoxious and unbalanced posters. (or should that be more obnoxious and more unbalanced .... )
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Old 01-25-19, 11:32 PM
  #30  
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No, I'm still as incorrigible as ever, and even less recyclable.
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Old 01-26-19, 02:43 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Reading A&S has helped me develop a great deal more tolerance for bonehead posters ... it only took about seven temporary bans until I developed the capacity not to jump into a cesspool and get into a filth-slinging contest with obviously obnoxious and unbalanced posters. (or should that be more obnoxious and more unbalanced .... )
Heh. I resemble that remark.

Oh and have you ever been shadow banned?

Its quite the trick, moderation has to approve every post before it appears here, quite common on Chinese internet. (also posts magically disappear without notice)
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Old 01-26-19, 06:48 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
As much as I have read about the usefulness of mirrors, I keep telling myself I am going to get one. I just never have gotten around to it. That will end up being one of the ways A&S has changed my behavior.
You state that you are a safety professional by trade and you obviously obsess over bike safety yet you havenít gotten around to using a mirror while riding?
Thatís not ironic, itís just plain ridiculous and serves to invalidate pretty much everything you preach.
Especially considering the fact that your OP is mainly about a rider getting hit from behind.
Rock on with your sock on bro

Last edited by downhillmaster; 01-26-19 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 01-26-19, 07:02 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post

You state that you are a safety professional by trade and you obviously obsess over bike safety yet you havenít gotten around to using a mirror while riding?
Thatís not ironic, itís just plain ridiculous and serves to invalidate pretty much everything you preach.
Especially considering the fact that your OP is mainly about a rider getting hit from behind.
Rock on with your sock on bro
Could you go into greater detail about what I have preached and how it is invalidated because I don't presently use a mirror? I'd also like for you to describe the conditions I ride in where my ears and an occasional head check have failed me. Thanks.
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Old 01-26-19, 07:43 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I hate to speak ill of the dead ... but absolutely a rider has to look ahead. Bike lanes end, shoulders end, debris falls across the road ... It could have been a piece of wood, or a sand bar left after a rain storm, a branch, or a pot hole ... or a shoulder or a bike lane ending. Very sad, but riders have to be heads-up.
Or why wouldn't you at least slow down and stop if necessary if you saw the bike lane or shoulder is ending? Let traffic pass and then take to the lane. THat's always preferable to dying.
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Old 01-26-19, 07:44 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Could you go into greater detail about what I have preached and how it is invalidated because I don't presently use a mirror? I'd also like for you to describe the conditions I ride in where my ears and an occasional head check have failed me. Thanks.
More contradiction.
So you donít use a mirror because your Ďears and an occasional head checkí have never failed you yet you are concerned enough about getting hit from the rear that you are going to wear clown socks. Instead of using a tried and true mirror ofc.
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Old 01-26-19, 07:48 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post

More contradiction.
So you donít use a mirror because your Ďears and an occasional head checkí have never failed you yet you are concerned enough about getting hit from the rear that you are going to wear clown socks. Instead of using a tried and true mirror ofc.

Do you mind taking a stab at the questions I asked?
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Old 01-26-19, 08:16 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
A rider wearing a high vis green helmet came toward me. It really stood out from the background.
Most high vis gear I see is helpful. It stands out better than regular colors. But there are a wide range of high vis materials and some are better than others. I used to have a neighbor who ride from time to time on a small old logging road near me wearing a high viz vest that was amazingly bright. He was a prison guard, so I might guess it was an "official issue" garment. But on this narrow, completely shaded road I could see him from a mile away as if the vest were illuminated. It was by far the best high viz vest I've ever seen.
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Old 01-26-19, 08:18 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
more contradiction.
So you donít use a mirror because your Ďears and an occasional head checkí have never failed you yet you are concerned enough about getting hit from the rear that you are going to wear clown socks. Instead of using a tried and true mirror ofc.
No inconsistency here. "Tried and true" is far from reality. Although now I feel lost without my helmet-mounted mirror, initially I had a hard time adapting to using one. I tried a few bar mounted mirrors, but their small size and sometimes convex surface resulting in my being fooled about the presence, speed, and distance of vehicles to the rear. Same with helmet or eyeglass mounted mirrors. These definitely have a adjustment sweet spot, outside of which may not give you the information that you need. I found that I felt more reliably safe using my eyes and ears directly and almost gave up using a mirror because I just didn't trust it. I am glad that I kept with it because now I understand both how to adjust and use correctly and, more importantly, its limitations.

Also, riding with a mirror is not likely to change the probability of getting hit from behind.

This sub-topic is a good example of what @Paul Barnard originally asked, i.e. it's a focus point that through discussion on A&S we can all reflect on the diversity of opinions and, with an open mind, consider changes in our personal riding strategies. There's a lot to learn here in this forum if one has a reasonable objectivity.
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Old 01-26-19, 08:40 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Hoopdriver View Post
No inconsistency here. "Tried and true" is far from reality. Although now I feel lost without my helmet-mounted mirror, initially I had a hard time adapting to using one. I tried a few bar mounted mirrors, but their small size and sometimes convex surface resulting in my being fooled about the presence, speed, and distance of vehicles to the rear. Same with helmet or eyeglass mounted mirrors. These definitely have a adjustment sweet spot, outside of which may not give you the information that you need. I found that I felt more reliably safe using my eyes and ears directly and almost gave up using a mirror because I just didn't trust it. I am glad that I kept with it because now I understand both how to adjust and use correctly and, more importantly, its limitations.

Also, riding with a mirror is not likely to change the probability of getting hit from behind.

This sub-topic is a good example of what @Paul Barnard originally asked, i.e. it's a focus point that through discussion on A&S we can all reflect on the diversity of opinions and, with an open mind, consider changes in our personal riding strategies. There's a lot to learn here in this forum if one has a reasonable objectivity.
Riiiight....
Tried and true is the definition of reality.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
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Old 01-26-19, 10:49 AM
  #40  
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Anticipating is one thing to work on to improve our safety but the act of paying attention is equally important. As an example, several years ago a group of people were overlooking Yosemite Falls when one of them stepped past a protective barrier to get a better angle for a photo. Somehow he lost his footing and began to slip over the edge. Another member of his party also went past the barrier to provide assistance with the result they both went over the edge to their deaths. The kind of awareness necessary to deal with that situation was evidently not present despite the clear and present danger.

I believe I know how to keep myself safe, or safer, on a bike but I don't know how that might be taught. Being hyper alert is not a characteristic we are born with. It is a characteristic to work on improving.
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Old 01-26-19, 12:56 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Do you mind taking a stab at the questions I asked?
never feed posters living under bridges.

Jim from a major Northeast urban center has already posted that mirrors do not stop cars. And even if one sees the car, one might not be able to escape.

High-vis socks help the driver see the bike. If the driver sees the bike, maybe the driver will avoid the bike. A mirror only helps a very limited amount ... and if the driver sees the rider and takes evasive action, the mirror is moot. But some posters don't do logic, they do spite and ridicule.

FACT---both posters have probably cycled a couple thousand miles a year or more for a couple decades. Obviously Both have developed ways to ride and survive. For one to say the other's system is faulty is prima facie incorrect.

High-vis is for the driver. Mirror is for the rider.

But I rode fierce urban traffic in the cycling fatality capitol of the nation for well over a decade ... without a mirror. Now I use one sometimes. it is Not necessary, and is more for convenience. In any situation where the driver is simply stupid, Nothing offers safety.

My last Really near miss was the classic "riding past a car on a side street which pulled out at the last second" situation where a mirror wouldn't have helped, and neither would a pair of high-vis socks. This guy ignored my searing headlight beam.

So ... are you guys both wrong? or is it a much more complicated environment and no panacea can make it safe?

I mean, continue the petty p1$$1ng match if you so desire ... it's a free virtual country ... but seriously?

As far as it goes, I am a Big proponent of reflective tape on shoes. Clipless pedals don't have room for reflectors and science (as in people actually doing tests and logging results) have found that lighted pedals or shoes are the absolute best indicator of "That's a bicycle" and the best (as far as I can recall) way to catch a driver's attention, because of all the motion and the fact that it is not in the same zone as a car headlight or a roadside mailbox reflector.

High-vis socks might matter during the day, not sure. But the basic idea---make the moving parts highly visible ---is Science.
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Old 01-26-19, 02:23 PM
  #42  
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A solid red light on my left ankle area is something that I am trying as well. But as I have posted before I have no idea if it works any better. I've never seen a cyclist with one when I am driving so can't say how it looks.
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Old 01-26-19, 02:44 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
never feed posters living under bridges.

Jim from a major Northeast urban center has already posted that mirrors do not stop cars. And even if one sees the car, one might not be able to escape.

High-vis socks help the driver see the bike. If the driver sees the bike, maybe the driver will avoid the bike. A mirror only helps a very limited amount ... and if the driver sees the rider and takes evasive action, the mirror is moot. But some posters don't do logic, they do spite and ridicule.

FACT---both posters have probably cycled a couple thousand miles a year or more for a couple decades. Obviously Both have developed ways to ride and survive. For one to say the other's system is faulty is prima facie incorrect.

High-vis is for the driver. Mirror is for the rider.

But I rode fierce urban traffic in the cycling fatality capitol of the nation for well over a decade ... without a mirror. Now I use one sometimes. it is Not necessary, and is more for convenience. In any situation where the driver is simply stupid, Nothing offers safety.

My last Really near miss was the classic "riding past a car on a side street which pulled out at the last second" situation where a mirror wouldn't have helped, and neither would a pair of high-vis socks. This guy ignored my searing headlight beam.

So ... are you guys both wrong? or is it a much more complicated environment and no panacea can make it safe?

I mean, continue the petty p1$$1ng match if you so desire ... it's a free virtual country ... but seriously?

As far as it goes, I am a Big proponent of reflective tape on shoes. Clipless pedals don't have room for reflectors and science (as in people actually doing tests and logging results) have found that lighted pedals or shoes are the absolute best indicator of "That's a bicycle" and the best (as far as I can recall) way to catch a driver's attention, because of all the motion and the fact that it is not in the same zone as a car headlight or a roadside mailbox reflector.

High-vis socks might matter during the day, not sure. But the basic idea---make the moving parts highly visible ---is Science.

I just did what is a pretty typical ride for me. 40 miles of which only 6 were on public roads. I had 4 cars approach me from behind. That was pretty manageable without a mirror. I still want to get one. I won't always be riding in my current environment, so it'd be better to get used to one in favorable conditions before I'd ever really need it. I encountered a guy on the levee path wearing blaze orange socks. They stood out pretty good. As I have started paying more attention, I think high vis yellow and green do better than orange.
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Old 01-26-19, 04:13 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
I just did what is a pretty typical ride for me. 40 miles of which only 6 were on public roads. I had 4 cars approach me from behind.
If you donít ride on roads with cars, what safety info can you PRESUME to offer to people who ride on roads with cars?

The hubris.

Imagine someone offering a ďsafety courseĒ lecturing boat owners that pleasure craft donít belong in the Gulf.

-mr. bill

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Old 01-26-19, 07:36 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Hoopdriver View Post
Also, riding with a mirror is not likely to change the probability of getting hit from behind.
For me, that is a completely false statement. Over many years of cycle commuting during rush hour, my eyeglass mirror has save me from getting hit from behind 6 specific times. I check the mirror way more than I would have done head checks, seeing people that look like they might not move over in the mirror allows me to concentrate on the greatest threat, that motorist. Six time I saw they were not going to move over and I bailed off the road while the driver continued right over the top of my line.

For example, one time was a jeep without a driver. As I bailed and the jeep passed a foot to my left, I say the motorist bent into the passenger floor board picking up a CD player.

Another time, I saw a women reading a Pamphlet with zero attention to the road. At the time, I was in a merge to her right and she was drifting into my lane. I barely got out of the way and the lady barely looked up in time to avoid going straight into the concrete bridge support right in front of her. At the next red light, she was back to reading the Jehovah Witness pamphlet and she drove of still reading while driving. I guess she completely trusted Jesus to Pilot her.
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Old 01-26-19, 07:49 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post


If you donít ride on roads with cars, what safety info can you PRESUME to offer to people who ride on roads with cars?

The hubris.

Imagine someone offering a ďsafety courseĒ lecturing boat owners that pleasure craft donít belong in the Gulf.

-mr. bill
What a pointless whine. mr. bill - you seem to have very little of value in your post anymore.

There is nothing wrong pointing out how far away he was able to see high vis socks from another vehicle. They are bright and in motion, win - win.

The posting here in BFs several times of an article by a jet pilot on his knowledge of the dynamics of human sight and how it impacts motorist seeing motorcyclists was very useful to me and other BF members, even though his experience and knowledge was not gained from road cycling.
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Old 01-26-19, 08:07 PM
  #47  
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I suppose that the threat of having a MiG blow a missile into your heinie would keep you on your toes though.
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Old 01-26-19, 08:16 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
What a pointless whine. mr. bill - you seem to have very little of value in your post anymore.

There is nothing wrong pointing out how far away he was able to see high vis socks from another vehicle. They are bright and in motion, win - win.

The posting here in BFs several times of an article by a jet pilot on his knowledge of the dynamics of human sight and how it impacts motorist seeing motorcyclists was very useful to me and other BF members, even though his experience and knowledge was not gained from road cycling.
Bill has a point.

He actually rides on roads, in urban environments no less.

He even posts videos of his riding.

Do you?

I guess you got one too many skeletons in the closet for that eh?

Real world experience trumps a safety briefing every time from a guy who rides mostly off public roads.

Is his advice useful, sure it is, and blatantly obvious to anyone who has almost been hit.

Visibility can also make you an easy target for hostile motorists.

Last edited by SHBR; 01-26-19 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 01-26-19, 09:50 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
I am a safety professional by trade. I have been with the Coast Guard either active duty or civilian for 33 years. I served as a commercial fishing vessel safety specialist for 6 years and recently took my dream job as a recreational boating safety program manager. I am furloughed at the present. There's a reason for this aside, so bear with me. Safety is a tough sell. Especially to older folks who are often fairly entrenched in their ways. To a large degree, I am marketing boating safety.

That has me wondering what are the most effective ways to deliver safety messaging. I am considering creating an official Coast Guard presence on the larger boating forums on the net. That brings me to the topic at hand. Has discussion in A&S changed your behavior? If so how? What was it that caused the change? Does reading about crashes resonate with you? Does data resonate with you? Do you learn when others share their mistakes? What kind of safety messaging works with you? When we learn what causes behavioral shifts, we can more effectively tailor our messaging.

I posted last week a thread about a local woman who was killed. Since the area and the road were familiar to me, it caused me to take greater pause to ponder the event. She was hit from behind. Obviously the driver didn't see her. There are some drivers who are so out of touch with their surroundings that just about nothing can wrest their attention away from their distraction. But there are others who are marginally distracted, and we may be able to draw attention to ourselves by making ourselves more conspicuous. I was riding the local MUP the other day. I rode up behind a great big man with a bulky jacket. I looked at as much of the path as I could see ahead, and well off in the distance and rounding a slight bend in the path, was another rider. I had more than enough time to go around the large man before that rider and I met. I announced my presence to the large man and went around. I had not seen another rider between the large rider and the one coming around the bend. The large rider had obscured him, and when I went to pass, I was focused on the rider I had seen further away. It was much later in the game than I would have preferred, when I noticed the rider that had been obscured. It made me a little angry at myself. Nobody was in any danger, but as a safety conscious, alert rider it bothered me.

I got to thinking about the whole thing and my mind went to the lady that was struck from behind. Is it possible that I could be the one to take a cyclists life? I like to think not. But the encounter on the MUP made me question myself. Later on that ride, I started paying attention to the visibility of other riders. On the long straight parts they were all silhouetted very well and were easy to see. The vegetation along the path made it such that if there were bends in the path, riders wearing darker clothes were difficult to pick out from the background. The few riders who had high vis stood out much better. When I cycle on public roadways, I don't always wear high vis, but I do wear brighter colors. Colors obviously stand out but so does movement. One rider had high vis shoes. Between the color and the movement, that rider really caught my attention.

Let me try to close the loop on what has been a somewhat rambling post. There are several prongs to this post. I am curious about the things that shape or change your behavior as it relates to safety. The discussion of the rider killed in my area had already caused me to reevaluate my visibility. I am curious, not so much about what you do, but what others have done that really helped draw your attention to them. The MUP experience led me to this as one of the ways I will to make myself more conspicuous.

As you know that when there is a major loss at sea, there is a report by a panel of recognized experts and sometimes a published court proceeding. The findings are taught at Safety at Sea seminars, adopted by national and international regulatory agencies, written into equipment, prep, and training requirements for offshore races, and rapidly incorporated into a body of accepted doctrine deceloped over hundreds, if not thousands, of years.

Compare that to the situation with cycling: No expert analysis after disasters, no accepted experts, no consensus, no doctrine, lots of noise. With about 50 years and 200,000 miles on the roads, I have had to learn or guess whatís safe for me, and a forum like this isnít going to change my mind on anything.

Incidentally, thank you for your service and cheers to all the brave men and women of the USCG.
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Old 01-26-19, 11:12 PM
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Yet, you are here? That sounds like it was by accident...
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