Has A&S Changed Your Behavior?
01-27-19, 01:27 AM
#51
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Why are we still talking about hi-viz socks? Hi-viz socks cannot be seen at all until the rider gets home and takes his shoes off! Hi-viz shoes? Maybe. My shoes have hi-viz stripes in the heel area. My tights have hi-viz buttons at mid-thigh, knee and ankle. My jacket has hi-viz accents on the arms and back. One of my jackets is all hi-viz fluorescent green. Socks? Can we get serious? And the poster observing that the o.p.'s credibility should take a serious hit after learning that they cycle without a mirror has a point. Most of us follow reasonable safety precautions and don't feel the need to launch posts about our foresight. If I am going to take counsel from a 'safety expert' I for one don't want to hear that they don't use mirrors! WTF?
01-27-19, 02:35 AM
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Cool. Everyone has different opinions.
I don't care if the person giving the lecture does everything differently than he preaches. I care if the advice is good.
As I noted above ... I am sur All of us have tens of thousands of road miles. We have all survived.
If some posters avoid roads nowadays ... that doesn't invalidate what they learned through experience.
In fact,t hat is the whole "coaching" paradigm: People who used to do a thing, and no longer do, teach others using their experience. Clear to all?
I don't care if the person giving the lecture does everything differently than he preaches. I care if the advice is good.
As I noted above ... I am sur All of us have tens of thousands of road miles. We have all survived.
If some posters avoid roads nowadays ... that doesn't invalidate what they learned through experience.
In fact,t hat is the whole "coaching" paradigm: People who used to do a thing, and no longer do, teach others using their experience. Clear to all?
01-27-19, 03:23 AM
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Cool. Everyone has different opinions.
I don't care if the person giving the lecture does everything differently than he preaches. I care if the advice is good.
As I noted above ... I am sur All of us have tens of thousands of road miles. We have all survived.
If some posters avoid roads nowadays ... that doesn't invalidate what they learned through experience.
In fact,t hat is the whole "coaching" paradigm: People who used to do a thing, and no longer do, teach others using their experience. Clear to all?
I don't care if the person giving the lecture does everything differently than he preaches. I care if the advice is good.
As I noted above ... I am sur All of us have tens of thousands of road miles. We have all survived.
If some posters avoid roads nowadays ... that doesn't invalidate what they learned through experience.
In fact,t hat is the whole "coaching" paradigm: People who used to do a thing, and no longer do, teach others using their experience. Clear to all?
OP is a MUP rider that apparently had an epiphany after riding behind a fat person on a path
01-27-19, 06:06 AM
#55
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…Jim from a major Northeast urban center has already posted that mirrors do not stop cars. And even if one sees the car, one might not be able to escape.
High-vis socks help the driver see the bike. If the driver sees the bike, maybe the driver will avoid the bike. A mirror only helps a very limited amount ... and if the driver sees the rider and takes evasive action, the mirror is moot.
But some posters don't do logic, they do spite and ridicule…
High-vis socks help the driver see the bike. If the driver sees the bike, maybe the driver will avoid the bike. A mirror only helps a very limited amount ... and if the driver sees the rider and takes evasive action, the mirror is moot.
But some posters don't do logic, they do spite and ridicule…
Thanks for the citation, but I’m not sure I posted anything that obvious though I have described myself as “evangelistic” about mirrors.
I liked these posts by @berner (also from the Northeast Megalopolis) about the fundamental use of mirrors, furthermore of the safety mindset I employ:
I'm a firm believer that experience is the best teacher and it does not have to be your own experience. Just as much can be learned from evaluating how others may have screwed up.
With this in mind, learning of the misadventures of others, as in A&S, can be valuable provided we really pay attention.
Now really paying attention is a large category. Part of it is not only being visible but how our visibility changes depending on clothing worn and shade...
With this in mind, learning of the misadventures of others, as in A&S, can be valuable provided we really pay attention.
Now really paying attention is a large category. Part of it is not only being visible but how our visibility changes depending on clothing worn and shade...
Anticipating is one thing to work on to improve our safety but the act of paying attention is equally important…
I believe I know how to keep myself safe, or safer, on a bike but I don't know how that might be taught. Being hyper alert is not a characteristic we are born with. It is a characteristic to work on improving.
I believe I know how to keep myself safe, or safer, on a bike but I don't know how that might be taught. Being hyper alert is not a characteristic we are born with. It is a characteristic to work on improving.
…I was hit from behind by a “distracted” (? inebriated) hit and run driver on an otherwise seemingly safe and peaceful route. By good fortune, I’m alive and relatively unimpaired.
Over the past few months I have come to realize that my safety aphorisms, collected over the years by personal or vicarious experience, are my way of actively aligning the stars in my favor, to anticipate those unseen and otherwise unanticipated dangers.
FWIW, for my own information at least, my other aphorisms beside those above are:
Over the past few months I have come to realize that my safety aphorisms, collected over the years by personal or vicarious experience, are my way of actively aligning the stars in my favor, to anticipate those unseen and otherwise unanticipated dangers.
FWIW, for my own information at least, my other aphorisms beside those above are:
- Make yourself as visible as possible,and assume nobody sees you.
- …
- Jim’s Law of the Road: “No matter how well-paved and lightly traveled the Road, a vehicle is likely to pass on the left as you encounter an obstacle on the right.”…my argument to wear a rearview mirror.
FWIW, my posts to Bikeforums are what they are worth as a decades-long year-round lifestyle cyclist, including urban commuting, but I have been cited as a good source:
My experience is that people drive differently in every city and treat cyclists very differently. The best advice often comes from cyclists that live the closest to you …
The exception here would also be Jim from Boston--anyone that can successfully commute around Boston has my full respect and probably knows how to deal with about every intersection imaginable!
The exception here would also be Jim from Boston--anyone that can successfully commute around Boston has my full respect and probably knows how to deal with about every intersection imaginable!
Frankly, I have posted that I would not be inclined to encourage, unless by example (nor discourage) someone to cycle-commute, but if they so chose, I would freely and gladly give any advice...
Public exhortations to cycle-commute, or utility cycle are well and good with no individual responsibility for bad outcomes, but I would not want the recriminations of a personal endorsement if something bad happened.
Also, with regards to “recreational cycling,” actual organizing, promoting, or similar, may entail IMO a liability beyond a personal guilt trip if something goes wrong….
FWW, I’m not advocatin’ against, just sayin’
Public exhortations to cycle-commute, or utility cycle are well and good with no individual responsibility for bad outcomes, but I would not want the recriminations of a personal endorsement if something bad happened.
Also, with regards to “recreational cycling,” actual organizing, promoting, or similar, may entail IMO a liability beyond a personal guilt trip if something goes wrong….
FWW, I’m not advocatin’ against, just sayin’
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 01-27-19 at 06:45 AM.
01-27-19, 09:03 AM
#56
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Cool. Everyone has different opinions.
I don't care if the person giving the lecture does everything differently than he preaches. I care if the advice is good.
As I noted above ... I am sur All of us have tens of thousands of road miles. We have all survived.
If some posters avoid roads nowadays ... that doesn't invalidate what they learned through experience.
In fact,t hat is the whole "coaching" paradigm: People who used to do a thing, and no longer do, teach others using their experience. Clear to all?
I don't care if the person giving the lecture does everything differently than he preaches. I care if the advice is good.
As I noted above ... I am sur All of us have tens of thousands of road miles. We have all survived.
If some posters avoid roads nowadays ... that doesn't invalidate what they learned through experience.
In fact,t hat is the whole "coaching" paradigm: People who used to do a thing, and no longer do, teach others using their experience. Clear to all?
Don't let the angry mutterings of an attention deprived narcissist who can't seem to bring anything of value to the discussion steer you off topic. Not that there's one here of course, just saying in case one shows up.
Last edited by Paul Barnard; 01-27-19 at 09:20 AM.
01-27-19, 09:19 AM
#57
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As you know that when there is a major loss at sea, there is a report by a panel of recognized experts and sometimes a published court proceeding. The findings are taught at Safety at Sea seminars, adopted by national and international regulatory agencies, written into equipment, prep, and training requirements for offshore races, and rapidly incorporated into a body of accepted doctrine deceloped over hundreds, if not thousands, of years.
Compare that to the situation with cycling: No expert analysis after disasters, no accepted experts, no consensus, no doctrine, lots of noise. With about 50 years and 200,000 miles on the roads, I have had to learn or guess what’s safe for me, and a forum like this isn’t going to change my mind on anything.
Incidentally, thank you for your service and cheers to all the brave men and women of the USCG.
01-27-19, 09:59 AM
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Interesting range of responses to my post. In my case it is preaching to the choir ...
"angry mutterings of an attention deprived narcissist who can't seem to bring anything of value to the discussion"??? Are you talking about me??!!
01-27-19, 10:06 AM
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And as for "urban cyclist masters," as another poster suggests, we could do worse than listening to Jim, who hatched out of an egg laid in a nest of quotes.
01-27-19, 02:00 PM
#61
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Jim from Boston was wondering about biomotion visibility and flourescent (fashion industry calls it neon).
This is a great relatively recent paper.
Pull quote:
“Thus, cyclists who habitually wear fluorescent – as opposed to reflective – materials may considerably overestimate their visibility at night. This may result in cyclists unintentionally placing themselves at elevated risk.”
The problem with florescent is its effectiveness PLUMETS during twilight. The problem with reflective is during the day it makes zero difference and a significant number of drivers have not turned on their headlamps during twilight. So there’s the third leg - active lighting - front and rear, 24/7. (Yes, drl for bicycles. Great danish research published about that.)
p.s. While out today with dozens and dozens of people on bikes and dozens and dozens of people on foot and dozens and dozens of people in cars, I saw precisely ZERO socks. I happen to be wearing Adidas football socks that nobody saw. But I’m thinking maybe I should get these? They make me smile, and it is carnival time.
p.p.s. How come the most common color of car is road?
-mr. bill
This is a great relatively recent paper.
Pull quote:
“Thus, cyclists who habitually wear fluorescent – as opposed to reflective – materials may considerably overestimate their visibility at night. This may result in cyclists unintentionally placing themselves at elevated risk.”
The problem with florescent is its effectiveness PLUMETS during twilight. The problem with reflective is during the day it makes zero difference and a significant number of drivers have not turned on their headlamps during twilight. So there’s the third leg - active lighting - front and rear, 24/7. (Yes, drl for bicycles. Great danish research published about that.)
p.s. While out today with dozens and dozens of people on bikes and dozens and dozens of people on foot and dozens and dozens of people in cars, I saw precisely ZERO socks. I happen to be wearing Adidas football socks that nobody saw. But I’m thinking maybe I should get these? They make me smile, and it is carnival time.
p.p.s. How come the most common color of car is road?
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 01-27-19 at 02:17 PM.
01-27-19, 03:13 PM
#62
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Like reflective, neon is visible when light hits it (mechanics of optics and all ...) I was wearing my fluoro wind vest one night when a cycling friend passed me in his car. he commented on how visible I was because of my day-glo, hi-vis vest. Black is black when lit or not.
Reflective gear reflects .. other People's lights. And obviously, none of it matters if no one is looking.
orange and red turn black at low light---they reflect very little light because (I guess) other wavelengths get filtered out by the atmosphere around dusk, and red doesn't reflect well off red. I am not a physicist, though I play one in my imagination sometimes. But I do recall that studies were done int he late '60s and some municipalities started painting fire engines white, yellow or light fluorescent green.
As fro all that ... they realized that even all those flashing lights were simply not offering enough contrast at dusk. Possibly ... a black jersey with a really bright red light clipped to the top of the jersey pocket would offer the best visibility around dusk because it would create its own high-contrast background.
As for socks ... I don't see any studies mentioned by anyone about their efficacy, so i guess it's a personal thing. I have seen study results about ankle/pedal/shoe reflectors, and I bet a really bright tail light on the left ankle would be a huge benefit.
Reflective gear reflects .. other People's lights. And obviously, none of it matters if no one is looking.
orange and red turn black at low light---they reflect very little light because (I guess) other wavelengths get filtered out by the atmosphere around dusk, and red doesn't reflect well off red. I am not a physicist, though I play one in my imagination sometimes. But I do recall that studies were done int he late '60s and some municipalities started painting fire engines white, yellow or light fluorescent green.
As fro all that ... they realized that even all those flashing lights were simply not offering enough contrast at dusk. Possibly ... a black jersey with a really bright red light clipped to the top of the jersey pocket would offer the best visibility around dusk because it would create its own high-contrast background.
As for socks ... I don't see any studies mentioned by anyone about their efficacy, so i guess it's a personal thing. I have seen study results about ankle/pedal/shoe reflectors, and I bet a really bright tail light on the left ankle would be a huge benefit.
01-27-19, 03:50 PM
#64
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or in the case of some "contributions," what less could one offer? 
01-27-19, 03:56 PM
#65
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I hope I didn't come off as trying to preach. Scanning back over my posts, I don't see that I tried to encourage anyone to do as I do, but rather I tossed it out for consideration. A collection of experiences from riding and driving on the road and MUP steered me to mid calf high vis socks (and contrary to what a moron would assume they are visible above the shoe) as part of a comprehensive safety strategy for when I ride on the road. I decided to share that with the forum and to lean on the forum for information that might help me in my profession.
Don't let the angry mutterings of an attention deprived narcissist who can't seem to bring anything of value to the discussion steer you off topic. Not that there's one here of course, just saying in case one shows up.
Don't let the angry mutterings of an attention deprived narcissist who can't seem to bring anything of value to the discussion steer you off topic. Not that there's one here of course, just saying in case one shows up.
And one even thinks the new standard is you must post boring videos of urban rides to be taken seriously.
One thinks that bright pull up socks are just like anklets or that we all wear long pants when cycling, so the sock in the OP cannot be seen until shoes are taken off.
So in this thread, we have Paul at one end of the spectrum and trolls at the other.
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01-27-19, 04:17 PM
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That's a great post. Of course there are bicycling safety books, but you are right, there's not very much in the form of widely accepted and taught bicycling safety doctrine. You have an incredible amount of experience, and I wouldn't expect the forum to influence your behavior much. We can probably lump forum participants into 3 general groups. Beginners, those with moderate experience and masters. You obviously fall into the master category, and I would hope that forum participants could benefit from your knowledge and experience. There are also folks who may have a lot of experience in one kind of riding, but not another. I am one of those. I have logged quite a few miles on rural backroads and can probably provide some words of wisdom for those that haven't. I have never commuted in heavy traffic, so if I decided to do it, I'd consider myself a beginner and happily tap into the knowledge of others here.
01-27-19, 04:25 PM
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Like reflective, neon is visible when light hits it (mechanics of optics and all ...) I was wearing my fluoro wind vest one night when a cycling friend passed me in his car. he commented on how visible I was because of my day-glo, hi-vis vest. Black is black when lit or not.
-mr. bill
01-27-19, 04:29 PM
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I lack the speed to keep up with traffic even leaving from a light ... any car can hit 30 mph in a few seconds and i cannot hit it at all except on a downhill. I take my place in line sometimes ... but I also don't like the feeling of sitting, flat-footed, while some driver pulls up and over me because s/he is looking at he car in front of me instead of me.
Intersections are always going to be issues because they are choke-points----unless there are bike lanes on both sides, cars will be coming both ways, leaving little room for them to swing wide around the cyclist who needs to occupy that bit of road. I'd rather make the cars wait .... but with some long intersections that would Really annoy drivers, and don't like having angry drivers behind me.
I guess the answer is steroids, EPO, and testosterone supplements.
Intersections are always going to be issues because they are choke-points----unless there are bike lanes on both sides, cars will be coming both ways, leaving little room for them to swing wide around the cyclist who needs to occupy that bit of road. I'd rather make the cars wait .... but with some long intersections that would Really annoy drivers, and don't like having angry drivers behind me.
I guess the answer is steroids, EPO, and testosterone supplements.
01-27-19, 04:32 PM
#69
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“Fluorescent clothing acts by converting the wavelength of ultra-violet (UV) light (present in sunlight) to longer visible wavelengths, which leads to an overall increase in reflected visible light under daytime conditions. However, streetlights and vehicle headlights do not provide substantial amounts of UV; thus, fluorescent materials are not a particularly valuable conspicuity aid during typical night-time conditions.”
-mr. bill
01-27-19, 04:41 PM
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Thanks, that’s flattering, and I think I overestimated my lifetime miles by a factor of 2, which is what comes of posting after “dinner.” Be that as it may, I don’t offer advice here because I have only my own experience and hunches to base it on and anything I say is sure to conflict someone else’s strongly held and equally worthless opinions. Moreover, what I do myself may not work for everyone. To give you an example, I generally stop in line and claim a full slice of road at traffic signals, rather than filtering up on the right, risking a hook, and having every motor vehicle in the line pass me again. On the other hand, Providence, hard work, and good genes have left me enough of a standing sprint at age 62 to hold my place in traffic until it’s safe to move right and enough circulating testosterone to stay where I am even if that takes a while. I think this is the safest way for me to handle most intersections with traffic. However, judging by the behavior I see on the roads, most cyclists regard this as wrong and nothing I can say or do will convince them otherwise. Moreover, what if someone were to adopt it on my sayso in the absence of supporting expert opinion or “clinical” data and get smooshed?
We are on the same wavelength. I will rarely ever give advice as it relates to bicycling safety. I do unhesitatingly encourage people who are new to riding on the road to read this: https://hooleking.com/practice-areas...-while-biking/ and for those who may want a bit more in depth reading, this: https://www.amazon.com/Art-Urban-Cyc.../dp/0762727837
Beyond that I will share my thoughts and experiences an if someone wants to borrow from them, they can. And that is where forums can have great instructional value. You and I have the same approach to intersections. I will get in the traffic queue to pass through the intersection then move right when safe. I generally do not filter. Others are passionate about their belief that filtering to the front is the safest. Folks can read both sides of the discussion and choose the style they think best fits them.
01-27-19, 05:12 PM
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I have read…but couldn’’t find the thread…that a rotary motion of a light on the lower extremity is the most eyecatching, and identifiable form of illumination; however I can’t seem to find illuminated ankle bands.
Also I am intrigued by this little-cited form of visibility: [pool noodles]
Also I am intrigued by this little-cited form of visibility: [pool noodles]
Jim from Boston was wondering about biomotion visibility and flourescent (fashion industry calls it neon).
This is a great relatively recent paper.
Pull quote:
“Thus, cyclists who habitually wear fluorescent – as opposed to reflective – materials may considerably overestimate their visibility at night. This may result in cyclists unintentionally placing themselves at elevated risk....”
[[u]The findings suggest that reflective ankle and knee [i.e. [b]rotary] markings are particularly valuable at night, while fluorescent clothing is not…”]
The problem with florescent is its effectiveness PLUMETS during twilight. The problem with reflective is during the day it makes zero difference and a significant number of drivers have not turned on their headlamps during twilight. So there’s the third leg - active lighting - front and rear, 24/7. (Yes, drl for bicycles. Great danish research published about that.)
-mr. bill
This is a great relatively recent paper.
Pull quote:
“Thus, cyclists who habitually wear fluorescent – as opposed to reflective – materials may considerably overestimate their visibility at night. This may result in cyclists unintentionally placing themselves at elevated risk....”
[[u]The findings suggest that reflective ankle and knee [i.e. [b]rotary] markings are particularly valuable at night, while fluorescent clothing is not…”]
The problem with florescent is its effectiveness PLUMETS during twilight. The problem with reflective is during the day it makes zero difference and a significant number of drivers have not turned on their headlamps during twilight. So there’s the third leg - active lighting - front and rear, 24/7. (Yes, drl for bicycles. Great danish research published about that.)
-mr. bill
Yet I have not found such items promoted, or even available at bicycle shops. Back in the 70’s, this clumsy strap-on was state-of-the art, less cumbersome on the arm than on the ankle:
As @Maelochs speculated,
…As for socks ... I don't see any studies mentioned by anyone about their efficacy, so i guess it's a personal thing. I have seen study results about ankle/pedal/shoe reflectors, and I bet a really bright tail light on the left ankle would be a huge benefit.
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 01-27-19 at 05:22 PM.
01-27-19, 05:58 PM
#72
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Narcissist, moi?
I hope I didn't come off as trying to preach. Scanning back over my posts, I don't see that I tried to encourage anyone to do as I do, but rather I tossed it out for consideration. A collection of experiences from riding and driving on the road and MUP steered me to mid calf high vis socks (and contrary to what a moron would assume they are visible above the shoe) as part of a comprehensive safety strategy for when I ride on the road. I decided to share that with the forum and to lean on the forum for information that might help me in my profession.
Don't let the angry mutterings of an attention deprived narcissist who can't seem to bring anything of value to the discussion steer you off topic. Not that there's one here of course, just saying in case one shows up.
Don't let the angry mutterings of an attention deprived narcissist who can't seem to bring anything of value to the discussion steer you off topic. Not that there's one here of course, just saying in case one shows up.
Last edited by Leisesturm; 01-27-19 at 06:15 PM.
01-27-19, 06:14 PM
#73
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Hey, its Howard (the narcissist) hijacking this hugely hilarious hoot of a thread to ask a pertinent question: how many times over the last year have you arrived (safely of course) home to discover your taillight is missing? Come on, I know it's happened to someone at least once in one whole year. I know mine has the nasty habit of going dead if I hit a hard enough bump on the ride. Easy to do at night. Thanks to you lot I can't convince my wife that we will not be killed instantly unless we always have a blinker flashing when riding at night. My fault for buying one in the first place*, but it's y'all's fault for making her think it makes any real difference. She believes you guys more than she does me, even AFTER we have arrived home, safe and alive without one, due mainly to my superior bike handling and defensive riding arsenal of road craft. Sigh. It's enough to make a moron turn to drink. Mojito anyone? <slurp>
*sadly they are required equipment but easy to lose ...
*sadly they are required equipment but easy to lose ...
01-27-19, 06:32 PM
#74
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Right ... but it is Bright yellow. Hurt-your-eyes yellow. YELLOW!!! yellow. As i note, black is black whether lit or not. Hi-vis and Fluoro are not synonymous ... and I actually have no idea if the vest actually fluoresces. I don't care---I only wear it when it rains as a rule, so sunlight in not a factor. However it is approximately the color of fluorescent yellow paint/
On the top or left, picture of my pearl izumi next to a white cotton t shirt illuminated by a city street lamp.
It's not bright yellow, hurt-your eyes yellow, nor YELLOW!!! yellow.
It’s mellow yellow.
On the bottom or right, picture under sun lamps. Bright yellow, hurt-your eyes yellow, YELLOW!!! yellow.
“Thus, cyclists who habitually wear fluorescent – as opposed to reflective – materials may considerably overestimate their visibility at night. This may result in cyclists unintentionally placing themselves at elevated risk.”
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 01-27-19 at 08:54 PM.
01-27-19, 07:04 PM
#75
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I lack the speed to keep up with traffic even leaving from a light ... any car can hit 30 mph in a few seconds and i cannot hit it at all except on a downhill. I take my place in line sometimes ... but I also don't like the feeling of sitting, flat-footed, while some driver pulls up and over me because s/he is looking at he car in front of me instead of me.
Intersections are always going to be issues because they are choke-points----unless there are bike lanes on both sides, cars will be coming both ways, leaving little room for them to swing wide around the cyclist who needs to occupy that bit of road. I'd rather make the cars wait .... but with some long intersections that would Really annoy drivers, and don't like having angry drivers behind me.
I guess the answer is steroids, EPO, and testosterone supplements.
Intersections are always going to be issues because they are choke-points----unless there are bike lanes on both sides, cars will be coming both ways, leaving little room for them to swing wide around the cyclist who needs to occupy that bit of road. I'd rather make the cars wait .... but with some long intersections that would Really annoy drivers, and don't like having angry drivers behind me.
I guess the answer is steroids, EPO, and testosterone supplements.