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Ideas for managing dockless scooters car-free

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Ideas for managing dockless scooters car-free

Old 02-02-19, 10:12 AM
  #51  
tandempower
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
I think you want good things as we all do but often find it hard to cut through the ideological verbiage to see what the nuts and bolts issues are. We can discuss and help each other solve practical issues or even form different perspectives but we aren't going to create sweeping socio economic change on this forum. In fact, I would say most here have/would already buy into a lower car use philosophy if the practical concerns could be addressed.


In the end, I can only really change me and apparently, that's a full time job
I try to share that experience so that, if someone else also wants to change, they might find something useful.
I don't look at change vs. status quo as a black and white thing. Everything has multiple causes and contingencies and it's interesting to examine and analyze all the factors, possibilities, and the ways that potential futures are impeded by everything from norms to negativity to 'realism' in perspective and assumption.

There's no real difference between changing yourself and changing others because people identify with other people and see what they do. So when you are changing yourself, you're exploring what is possible for anyone, as well as what difficulties would be encountered by anyone trying what you're trying. By gaining experience, you gain the ability to share information about your experience, as well as your thoughts, and that amounts to zealotry, if you like to use such a negative term. I just think of it is as open-communication, i.e. discussion; hence my participation in online discussion forums.
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Old 02-02-19, 10:21 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
We can't even get cycling lanes, or decent footpaths in many places ... how are we supposed to get a strip of pavement for scooters?
It would be interesting if it was possible to rank all world municipalities in terms of which would wait the longest to shift away from widespread driving to a higher proportion of other modes. Your area of Tasmania, or wherever it is exactly, might rank close to the end of the list, e.g. where people wait until the vast majority of the world is LCFing before they begin transitioning away from driving. It would also be interesting to somehow measure how many municipalities are similarly resistant to widespread transportation reform and how that will play out in the long term.

To answer your specific question about where to find pavement for LCF, one option is getting the local government to designate certain roads/corridors as "bike boulevards." These corridors don't exclude motor-vehicles, but they are 'optimized' for low speed traffic by having lower speed limits, speed control devices, signs and pavement markings, and greenery that encourage low-speed, non-motorized traffic. Granted e-scooters and e-bikes are not non-motorized, but if they drive under 20mph or whatever the posted speed limit is, they are better than cars because they take up less of the road when they are passing you on foot or while biking slowly.
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Old 02-02-19, 08:04 PM
  #53  
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Again, bolding is mine.

Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I don't look at change vs. status quo as a black and white thing. Everything has multiple causes and contingencies and it's interesting to examine and analyze all the factors, possibilities, and the ways that potential futures are impeded by everything from norms to negativity to 'realism' in perspective and assumption.

Who said otherwise? You are sort of stating the obvious as if it's something unique.

There's no real difference between changing yourself and changing others because people identify with other people and see what they do. So when you are changing yourself, you're exploring what is possible for anyone, as well as what difficulties would be encountered by anyone trying what you're trying. By gaining experience, you gain the ability to share information about your experience, as well as your thoughts,

That's what I said.

and that amounts to zealotry, if you like to use such a negative term.

Here we disagree. Most people recognize the difference between zealotry vs sharing ones experience.

I say: This is what I do. Not:
This is what you should do.

You keep talking about what all the rest of the world is doing wrong and how they conspire against LCF and fail to embrace this or that but I wonder what YOU do or did to live LCF. Forget about the faceless nameless others. We can't really know what they think.

I just think of it is as open-communication, i.e. discussion; hence my participation in online discussion forums.

As do I.
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Old 02-02-19, 11:07 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Again, bolding is mine.
Here we disagree. Most people recognize the difference between zealotry vs sharing ones experience.

I say: This is what I do. Not:
This is what you should do.

You keep talking about what all the rest of the world is doing wrong and how they conspire against LCF and fail to embrace this or that but I wonder what YOU do or did to live LCF. Forget about the faceless nameless others. We can't really know what they think.


I could wait for a response but I think you have run into a wall right here. Machka, myself and several others have expressed several times that action speaks louder than words. We have said going out and doing, talking with people seeing how they live and why they live like they do will change your whole perspective. When you do that you realize why people might not be happy with scooters just laying around their street on in their parks and driveways. It does no good for someone that hasn't seen the problem to try and fix the problem by sending out suggestions from a location that isn't involved with the problem. At least I know I tend to be resistant to suggestions about things I am involved in and do much of the time by someone that has never don't the same things or been anywhere to see why we do what we do.

But who am I to talk? I keep trying to break through myself know it will not matter.
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Old 02-02-19, 11:27 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I may not personally love them or want to ride one ...
For the next week, ride them. Ride them every opportunity you get.

Then let us know how you feel about them.
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Old 02-03-19, 06:37 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
What do you think? Will it come true someday or is it just another unreastic dream to stomp into oblivion for the anti-LCF that like to throw their weight (and spit) around wherever ideas for car-free innovations dare to rear their heads?
You entertain two possibilities. Either it is a good idea, or the non-believer is obviously "anti-LCF" that want to throw their weight around (like it's SO gratifying to squash those LCF dudes). Oh, the refreshing openness of a TP debate!

You forgot one option: It's a bad idea that competes for infrastructure with good ideas.
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Old 02-03-19, 08:41 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
I say: This is what I do. Not: This is what you should do.
It used to bother if people would say what others should do, i.e. because I had some kind of zealous moral crusade against moral crusades. At some point, I just realized that when people say what others should do, it's just another way of saying that it's good to do something. You should realize this and just accept that sometimes instead of saying, "it's good to do X," people will say, "people should do X," or even "you should do X." If they're not actively cornering you, which sometimes happens in this forum to me btw, then it's just advice from someone who wants to give advice to others generally. It's nothing to get bothered by.
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Old 02-03-19, 08:46 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
For the next week, ride them. Ride them every opportunity you get.

Then let us know how you feel about them.
Let me put it this way: if the level of automotive traffic was approaching what it should be and options for LCF and takers of those options abounded, then I might express some criticism about scooters because they don't provide as much healthy physical activity as pedaling does, but in a world where most motor vehicles I see weigh over 2000lbs and take up most of an 11 foot lane on a multilane road filled with other such motor-vehicles, a bunch of scooters strewn around like 'weeds' would be a great replacement for the parking lots and road grids full of cars and trucks now.
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Old 02-03-19, 08:52 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
You entertain two possibilities. Either it is a good idea, or the non-believer is obviously "anti-LCF" that want to throw their weight around (like it's SO gratifying to squash those LCF dudes). Oh, the refreshing openness of a TP debate!

You forgot one option: It's a bad idea that competes for infrastructure with good ideas.
Everyone driving cars is not a good idea.

I don't know what you mean by 'anti-LCF' exactly. Driving is common and there are two obstacles to reducing auto-traffic and infrastructure: 1) lack of willpower and 2) obstacles to achievement where the willpower exists.

You seem to assume that no one has to be 'anti-LCF' for driving to dominate transportation culture. You can look at it that way, and keep telling yourself driving is just the best option and so that's the way things will stay; but it is more than an aesthetic preference to overcome the automotive paradigm in so many ways and for so many reasons. If you just keep insisting that cars for everyone is just a choice without consequences, that's denial. Transportation choices have ramifications and consequences beyond aesthetics and personal preferences.
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Old 02-03-19, 11:29 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It used to bother if people would say what others should do, i.e. because I had some kind of zealous moral crusade against moral crusades. At some point, I just realized that when people say what others should do, it's just another way of saying that it's good to do something. You should realize this and just accept that sometimes instead of saying, "it's good to do X," people will say, "people should do X," or even "you should do X." If they're not actively cornering you, which sometimes happens in this forum to me btw, then it's just advice from someone who wants to give advice to others generally. It's nothing to get bothered by.
Incorrect. "Should" is a modal that expresses obligation/duty in English. It has other syntactical/grammatical meanings, but that is its main one, and that is how you invariably use it.
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Old 02-03-19, 11:46 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It used to bother if people would say what others should do, i.e. because I had some kind of zealous moral crusade against moral crusades. At some point, I just realized that when people say what others should do, it's just another way of saying that it's good to do something. You should realize this and just accept that sometimes instead of saying, "it's good to do X," people will say, "people should do X," or even "you should do X." If they're not actively cornering you, which sometimes happens in this forum to me btw, then it's just advice from someone who wants to give advice to others generally. It's nothing to get bothered by.
It's not a matter of getting bothered, it's a matter of getting dismissed. The world is full of people trying to tell other people what they should do. Most people ignore it. If you want to effect change why adopt a model that leads to being dismissed? I'm quite foccussed on being successful in what I want to accomplish so I choose strategies that work. If what I am doing doesn't work I review what I am doing until it does.

It's really just a reversal of the idea of who should do the work. You can quote all the stats and list all the rationale but in the end I still will wonder: Do you actually live the way you seem to think others should? If yes, that adds some street cred. If no.. meh. I don't know yet because I don't really read any personal experiences being expressed that way here.
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Old 02-03-19, 07:03 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I don't know what you mean by 'anti-LCF' exactly.
Back at ya. I was quoting you
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Old 02-03-19, 07:51 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
a bunch of scooters strewn around like 'weeds' would be a great replacement for the parking lots and road grids full of cars and trucks now.

Except that they are neither comfortable nor convenient ... and aren't very practical either.

As WalterS says,

"You forgot one option: It's a bad idea that competes for infrastructure with good ideas."



I'd much rather focus on better ideas.

For example, I use public transportation. I participate in the surveys and questionnaires about public transportation. I communicate with the organisations involved in improving our public transportation. IMO, public transportation is an idea which could be reasonably comfortable, reasonably convenient, and reasonably practical for a reasonably large number of people.

Last edited by Machka; 02-03-19 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 02-04-19, 12:08 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Except that they are neither comfortable nor convenient ... and aren't very practical either.


As WalterS says,


"You forgot one option: It's a bad idea that competes for infrastructure with good ideas."




I'd much rather focus on better ideas.


For example, I use public transportation. I participate in the surveys and questionnaires about public transportation. I communicate with the organisations involved in improving our public transportation. IMO, public transportation is an idea which could be reasonably comfortable, reasonably convenient, and reasonably practical for a reasonably large number of people.

And there you have jumped upon the crux of the matter. People that are working on the form of transportation that works best for them have already seen systems that both work for them and have developed some infrastructure to support themselves. The bus, light rail, taxi, Urber/Lyft even bicycles and walking and yes working from home. They know the system works for them and why it works. Some of the same people have seen how these park anywhere scooters litter their cities and cause resources and tax money to be used to clean up the problems they cause. It is the people that are doers that have a say in what could work because they have seen what works. People that haven't even experienced the dock less services or seen the abuses caused are in no position to say what the public "should do" in support of these services. It is even more troubling when the system we are being asked to blindly support are foisted on society is being promoted as a should do proposition. When minimalists tell us they have a deal for us that we 'Should do" it and that deal is advocated by investment capitalists I for one don't give it as much credence. Now when someone that has been using alternative transportation for as many years as some others here tell me what I could do it might be worth taking a look at. And when they are skeptical of a alternative system so am I.
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Old 02-04-19, 06:45 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
It's not a matter of getting bothered, it's a matter of getting dismissed. The world is full of people trying to tell other people what they should do. Most people ignore it. If you want to effect change why adopt a model that leads to being dismissed? I'm quite foccussed on being successful in what I want to accomplish so I choose strategies that work. If what I am doing doesn't work I review what I am doing until it does.

It's really just a reversal of the idea of who should do the work. You can quote all the stats and list all the rationale but in the end I still will wonder: Do you actually live the way you seem to think others should? If yes, that adds some street cred. If no.. meh. I don't know yet because I don't really read any personal experiences being expressed that way here.
They say you should be the change you seek, but the problem with that is you can only make so much difference on your own. You can LCF your entire life, but if no one else joins you, not a single lane or parking spot will be reforested. So there comes a point where you can make more of a difference by changing others than changing yourself further. At that point you should realize that you cannot control other people because people control themselves. All you can do is communicate information with them and hope they control themselves in a good way. One way of doing that is to use 'should' statements. If people don't like hearing opinions about what they should do or what should happen, that's their problem. No one is forcing you to do what someone else says you should do or otherwise encourages you to do. No one can make you heed warnings about the consequences of your actions, etc. There is no reason for you to resent information coming from others that is meant to suggest certain choices or reasons for choices. It is just part of how we communicate with each other as humans who have an interest in each other's actions and the broader effects that are caused by those actions.
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Old 02-04-19, 06:51 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Except that they are neither comfortable nor convenient ... and aren't very practical either.

As WalterS says,

"You forgot one option: It's a bad idea that competes for infrastructure with good ideas."



I'd much rather focus on better ideas.

For example, I use public transportation. I participate in the surveys and questionnaires about public transportation. I communicate with the organisations involved in improving our public transportation. IMO, public transportation is an idea which could be reasonably comfortable, reasonably convenient, and reasonably practical for a reasonably large number of people.
Scooters aren't a replacement for public transit but for personal motor-vehicles, i.e. because that's what they are: small personal motor-vehicles.

Fair-weather LCF'ers like share bikes/scooters because they don't want to tote their own small vehicle around with them and have to lock, worry about, and otherwise keep track of it. They also don't want to ride in the rain or bad weather. Public transit can serve as a backup plan for rainy days and other times you don't want to ride a bike or scooter. Share bikes/scooters are then available for public transit riders when the weather is nice and they want to do something besides riding a bus/train/tram.

I think share bikes/scooters and public transit are a good combination of options for a large number of people who don't necessarily want to ride their own bike or scooter around everywhere or just be limited to transit and walking.
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Old 02-04-19, 07:12 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
not a single lane or parking spot will be reforested.
It's happening.





Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
One way of doing that is to use 'should' statements. If people don't like hearing opinions about what they should do or what should happen, that's their problem. No one is forcing you to do what someone else says you should do or otherwise encourages you to do. No one can make you heed warnings about the consequences of your actions, etc. There is no reason for you to resent information coming from others that is meant to suggest certain choices or reasons for choices. It is just part of how we communicate with each other as humans who have an interest in each other's actions and the broader effects that are caused by those actions.
No. Just ... no.


Where to even begin ...


From my experience, the problem with people who tell others what they should do or what should happen is that those people usually have no clue whatsoever about what's really going on, and their "shoulds" are usually so far off the mark it just leaves me shaking my head in disbelief.

One particular line from The Grinch Who Stole Christmas (Jim Carrey) always leaps to mind when I've got one of those "should-ers" yapping away in front of me. It helps me nod and smile.


BTW - if you've studied communication at all, you should (heh heh) use could or would rather than should. As in "would this help?" or "could you try?" ... if someone comes to you for advice.

Last edited by Machka; 02-04-19 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 02-04-19, 07:13 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
All you can do is communicate information with them and hope they control themselves in a good way.
If you want this communication to have any impact, it has to contain useful and persuasive information. The constant refrain that there's a giant conspiracy against car free alternatives will convince no one to use their car any less. You have to present alternatives that work. Which is where personal experience comes into play. If you can tell people "I do this every day and here's why it is a better alternative," you have a much better chance of achieving real change.

In the case of scooters, they really don't seem to most people to be a viable alternative. At least not as they are currently being marketed. The operations that have been been launched in the last year or two seem intended only to make money for those who are introducing them. The possibility of long term profit seems slim at best and the potential utility of the vehicles for the majority of commuters appears to be very limited. People are not arriving at this conclusion because they want to protect the auto industry. It's simply a badly flawed business model.

Last edited by jon c.; 02-04-19 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 02-04-19, 07:22 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
If you want this communication to have any impact, it had to contain useful and persuasive information. The constant refrain that there's a giant conspiracy against car free alternatives will convince no one to use their car any less. You have to present alternatives that work. Which is where personal experience comes into play. If you can tell people "I do this every day and here's why it is a better alternative," you have a much better chance of achieving real change.

In the case of scooters, they really don't seem to most people to be a viable alternative. At least not at they are currently being marketed. The operations that have been been launched in the last year or two seem intended only to make money for those who are introducing them. The possibility of long term profit seems slim at best and the potential utility of the vehicles for the majority of commuters appears to be very limited. People are not arriving at this conclusion because they want to protect the auto industry. It's simply a badly flawed business model.
+1


And applause for ...

"If you can tell people "I do this every day and here's why it is a better alternative," you have a much better chance of achieving real change. "
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Old 02-04-19, 10:29 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
They say you should be the change you seek, but the problem with that is you can only make so much difference on your own. You can LCF your entire life, but if no one else joins you, not a single lane or parking spot will be reforested. So there comes a point where you can make more of a difference by changing others than changing yourself further. At that point you should realize that you cannot control other people because people control themselves. All you can do is communicate information with them and hope they control themselves in a good way. One way of doing that is to use 'should' statements. If people don't like hearing opinions about what they should do or what should happen, that's their problem. No one is forcing you to do what someone else says you should do or otherwise encourages you to do. No one can make you heed warnings about the consequences of your actions, etc. There is no reason for you to resent information coming from others that is meant to suggest certain choices or reasons for choices. It is just part of how we communicate with each other as humans who have an interest in each other's actions and the broader effects that are caused by those actions.
Sure. How's that working out for you here?
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Old 02-04-19, 06:23 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
It's happening.



Having such a tree in every other parking spot like that would indeed be good. Then, maybe some treed islands/medians in the center lane as well . . .


From my experience, the problem with people who tell others what they should do or what should happen is that those people usually have no clue whatsoever about what's really going on, and their "shoulds" are usually so far off the mark it just leaves me shaking my head in disbelief.
So it's a starting point for a two-way dialogue.


One particular line from The Grinch Who Stole Christmas (Jim Carrey) always leaps to mind when I've got one of those "should-ers" yapping away in front of me. It helps me nod and smile.
So your saying that should-ers should 'should' others less? What gives you the right to tell them what they should do if you don't like them doing it?



BTW - if you've studied communication at all, you should (heh heh) use could or would rather than should. As in "would this help?" or "could you try?" ... if someone comes to you for advice.
Yes, of course but once you see through that little rhetorical nuance, it doesn't really matter because they are basically just ways of conveying the same idea.


Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
If you want this communication to have any impact, it has to contain useful and persuasive information. The constant refrain that there's a giant conspiracy against car free alternatives will convince no one to use their car any less. You have to present alternatives that work. Which is where personal experience comes into play. If you can tell people "I do this every day and here's why it is a better alternative," you have a much better chance of achieving real change.
I'm not trying to marketing LCF, per se. I am analyzing what is going on with the culture and why all these transportation options are possible and even deployed by investors and then what happens to stifle their widespread adoption. If there's not a conspiracy behind it, it sure could pass for there being one.


In the case of scooters, they really don't seem to most people to be a viable alternative. At least not as they are currently being marketed.
You could start with an SUV and engineer smaller or start with an electric scooter and engineer larger. Either way the challenge is to find the smallest possible sized motor-vehicle that uses the least pavement and encourages the least sprawl and thus driving-dependency. The problem with making smaller cars is that things like crash protection regulations inhibit innovation. Tiny cars like the Tata aren't only unpopular because of stylistic norms more or less governed by the industry, but they are also just regulated out of the market.


The operations that have been been launched in the last year or two seem intended only to make money for those who are introducing them. The possibility of long term profit seems slim at best and the potential utility of the vehicles for the majority of commuters appears to be very limited. People are not arriving at this conclusion because they want to protect the auto industry. It's simply a badly flawed business model.
I point this out all the time: that cars and trucks are more complex machines with more parts that require more factories, workers, etc. and so they cost more and thus generate more revenue. You can't make a simpler vehicle produce as much revenue and jobs as a more complex one. It would be as if everyone owned a million dollar helicopter and you tried to convince them to all give up flying and drive $20,000 cars instead. Who would produce cars for $20,000 each if they could invest in helicopters at $1,000,000 each? It's an economic bias based on automotive norms.


Originally Posted by Machka View Post
"If you can tell people "I do this every day and here's why it is a better alternative," you have a much better chance of achieving real change. "
Plenty of people know a bike every day and they don't trade in driving for biking. Logic actually works better than role-modeling in some cases. Saving money and saving the environment is more of a motivator than "that guy over there does it every day and you can be like him." People want to be themselves, or at least see themselves as being their own people and not followers of others. The idea that they would be seen as or feel like a follower of someone doing something non-normative is probably more of a deterrent than a motivation for most people.



Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Sure. How's that working out for you here?
It's just what I feel I have to do. If I was just trying to set an example with my actions, I would feel like I wasn't doing as much as I could; i.e. that I was shirking.
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Old 02-04-19, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
Having such a tree in every other parking spot like that would indeed be good. Then, maybe some treed islands/medians in the center lane as well . . .




So it's a starting point for a two-way dialogue.




So your saying that should-ers should 'should' others less? What gives you the right to tell them what they should do if you don't like them doing it?





Yes, of course but once you see through that little rhetorical nuance, it doesn't really matter because they are basically just ways of conveying the same idea.




I'm not trying to marketing LCF, per se. I am analyzing what is going on with the culture and why all these transportation options are possible and even deployed by investors and then what happens to stifle their widespread adoption. If there's not a conspiracy behind it, it sure could pass for there being one.




You could start with an SUV and engineer smaller or start with an electric scooter and engineer larger. Either way the challenge is to find the smallest possible sized motor-vehicle that uses the least pavement and encourages the least sprawl and thus driving-dependency. The problem with making smaller cars is that things like crash protection regulations inhibit innovation. Tiny cars like the Tata aren't only unpopular because of stylistic norms more or less governed by the industry, but they are also just regulated out of the market.




I point this out all the time: that cars and trucks are more complex machines with more parts that require more factories, workers, etc. and so they cost more and thus generate more revenue. You can't make a simpler vehicle produce as much revenue and jobs as a more complex one. It would be as if everyone owned a million dollar helicopter and you tried to convince them to all give up flying and drive $20,000 cars instead. Who would produce cars for $20,000 each if they could invest in helicopters at $1,000,000 each? It's an economic bias based on automotive norms.




Plenty of people know a bike every day and they don't trade in driving for biking. Logic actually works better than role-modeling in some cases. Saving money and saving the environment is more of a motivator than "that guy over there does it every day and you can be like him." People want to be themselves, or at least see themselves as being their own people and not followers of others. The idea that they would be seen as or feel like a follower of someone doing something non-normative is probably more of a deterrent than a motivation for most people.




It's just what I feel I have to do. If I was just trying to set an example with my actions, I would feel like I wasn't doing as much as I could; i.e. that I was shirking.
in other words, you have no more intention of listening to others telling you how to be more successful by using your education to make more income than successful people have if reducing their income to live like someone on minimum wage?

You would rather scrape by and not travel without being able to trespass and camp for free on someone else’s property than to make a few more dollars and have the ability to stay in a camp ground or hotel while on vacation.

The constant diatribe about conspiracies inoculates others against accepting such theories as true. Simply stating something is true, “dockless scooters cause no harm”, flies in the face of the home owner that has to toss one off of their lawn every other week. The zealot doesn’t care and says we should learn to live with the intrusion till the companies figure it out. The common person sees the zealot as a fibber nd files the, “we should” in the trash of ideas because someone says you should it means they think they know more than the person they are “instructing”.

I cannot begin to explain how many supposed LCF warriors I have talked to who have a carbon footprint much larger than mine. It is there where the what you do comes into focus. Once it becomes known that the zealotry is so narrow focused that the goal is obscured that zealot can be classified as down stream in the green race and not worth listening to. The People running a marathon hardly ever listen to those that have never tried one.
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Old 02-04-19, 08:58 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It's just what I feel I have to do. If I was just trying to set an example with my actions, I would feel like I wasn't doing as much as I could; i.e. that I was shirking.
Great.. but again: my point is that I don't read anything about what you actially do - just what others should do.

I have to tell you, for all the supposed good you think you are doing on this discussion forum I find it very frustrating trying to have a conversation. You slip out of every direct question with more intellectual rhetoric. It feels like you want to have an authoritative voice without talking about how you do the real work.

Perhaps I'm wrong or have missed those conversations, and if so would enjoy some real life examples of how you try to live LCF but so far from this side that's how it comes off.
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Old 02-04-19, 10:14 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Great.. but again: my point is that I don't read anything about what you actially do - just what others should do.

I have to tell you, for all the supposed good you think you are doing on this discussion forum I find it very frustrating trying to have a conversation. You slip out of every direct question with more intellectual rhetoric. It feels like you want to have an authoritative voice without talking about how you do the real work.

Perhaps I'm wrong or have missed those conversations, and if so would enjoy some real life examples of how you try to live LCF but so far from this side that's how it comes off.
Good luck getting any of that.
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Old 02-04-19, 10:19 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
So it's a starting point for a two-way dialogue.
No, it isn't.


"You should do this." ends dialogue. People walk away.
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