Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Touring
Reload this Page >

Which spokes for touring?

Notices
Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

Which spokes for touring?

Old 02-09-19, 05:51 PM
  #26  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,278

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4252 Post(s)
Liked 3,866 Times in 2,579 Posts
Phil Wood makes fine spokes but I prefer Sapim Strong's with their brass locking nipples on my touring bike. I have them laced up to Paul Components hubs and WTB rims. If I had to redo my wheels again I would probably switch to White Industries hubs and HED Belgium Plus rims but my wheels are excellent and I have had zero problems with them once properly built by a master. The only reason for the switch at least hub wise is because i9 no longer makes the freehub bodies so while Mister Paul has all the parts to make these again i9 who made the freehubs has stopped making the compatible freehubs for him. I would only be switching the rims because I really love the look of HEDs.
veganbikes is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 05:54 PM
  #27  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 13,191
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2732 Post(s)
Liked 953 Times in 784 Posts
Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb
That's probably true. I've looked at Rhyno Lite's and Velocity NoBS, but I think they're ugly. I have not come around (aesthetically) to any modern rims I've seen yet. For one thing I like a 32 mm wide rim and a shiny high polish. Like most I want function and beauty. If I get quick rim failure, I'll look at others, so I'm open to suggestions.
well, folks your weight were riding back then also, so there must be a workable solution. Good spokes and a good wheelbuilder should suffice.
I toured on 1990 era rims, 700 stuff, and it worked, but then I was probably 125lbs back then

I second the recommendation , or maybe you said you wanted this, but wider tires will help putting less impact shock into your wheelset, just due to the lower pressures and greater air volume. I experience this with my 26in wheels with 32 spokes, modern disc rims though, but I am sure the larger volume tires helps a lot in making life easier for the spokes.

but in the end, function will be the most important thing, so you will see....
djb is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 06:15 PM
  #28  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb
Here's a link to the spokes: Phil Wood & Co.
Thanks, I was unaware of them.

I previously said:
You mentioned Phil hubs. A friend of mine tours on an older freewheel type Phil hub and he is quite happy with it. That design also overcomes the weak axle problem, thus that would also be a good choice.

You interpreted that as me saying that Phil made freewheels, but I was talking about the type of hub that a freewheel could be threaded onto.

The rims that I am using on my two 26 inch wheel touring bikes are no longer made, thus I am not recommending any rims. But if your old rims have much wear on the brake track then I think new rims is worth it.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 08:44 PM
  #29  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 13,191
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2732 Post(s)
Liked 953 Times in 784 Posts
aw hell, I'm just going to go out and say this, the real answer to this guys question, as none of you jackasses have yet---

different spokes for different folks.
djb is offline  
Old 02-12-19, 12:57 AM
  #30  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
On the Wheelsmith website I only see DB14, not DH13 What's the difference?
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-12-19, 04:06 AM
  #31  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob
Lots of them .. My 700c touring wheels, had 40 front , 48 rear*, so, 88 total , 90 if you bring a couple spares ...

* hub, old, Phil Wood, Freewheel,,, 10 years, several multi-month self supported tours 'Across the Pond'..
Are you saying that you have a freewheel like a 5- or 6-speed on a Phil Wood hub? If so, which model of hub?
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-12-19, 09:13 AM
  #32  
robert schlatte
Senior Member
 
robert schlatte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: columbus, ohio
Posts: 895

Bikes: Soma Saga, 1980 Schwinn Voyageur 11.8, New Albion Privateer

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 7 Posts
I recently built new wheels using Sapim Race DB spokes (2mm/ 1.8mm/ 2mm) that I purchased from Thor USA for $.55/ spoke which I considered extremely cheap. Sapim Spokes and Nipples The rim are DT Swiss TK540, the front hub is a SON 28 dynamo hub and the rear is Shimano Deore LX cup and cone hub. Both are 36 holes. I think these are extremely strong wheels.
robert schlatte is offline  
Old 02-13-19, 09:26 AM
  #33  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,274

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6147 Post(s)
Liked 4,092 Times in 2,325 Posts
Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb
On the Wheelsmith website I only see DB14, not DH13 What's the difference?
Here's a link to the DH13. DH13's have a 2.3mm head/bend with a 2.0mm shaft. A DB14 has a 2.0mm head, 1.7mm middle, and a 2.0mm end. The "DB" means double butted which means it has a narrower midsection. DT Alpine III differ from the DH13 in that they have a butted middle section as well. The dimensions on the Alpine III is 2.3/1.8/2.0mm. That thinner midsection provides a bit more elasticity in the spoke. Sheldon Brown discusses the benefits of the thinner midsection here.

Double-butted spokes are thicker at the ends than in the middle. The most popular diameters are 2.0/1.8/2.0 mm (also known as 14/15 gauge) and 1.8/1.6/1.8 (15/16 gauge).Double-butted spokes do more than save weight. The thick ends make them as strong in the highly-stressed areas as straight-gauge spokes of the same thickness, but the thinner middle sections make the spokes effectively more elastic, allowing them to stretch (temporarily) more than thicker spokes.

As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily-stressed spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around the spoke holes.
He also has this to say about the thicker head on spokes

Since spokes use rolled, not cut threads, the outside diameter of the threads is larger than the base diameter of the spoke wire. Since the holes in the hub flanges must be large enough for the threads to fit through, the holes, in turn, are larger than the wire requires. This is undesirable, because a tight match between the spoke diameter at the elbow and the diameter of the flange hole is crucial to resisting fatigue-related breakage.
I noticed that when I first started building with triple butted spokes almost 20 years ago. The spoke is tighter in the hub so there is less movement of the head as the spoke travels around the wheel. When the spoke hits the bottom of the wheel, the rim deforms and deflect upward (slightly). There is a momentary relaxing of tension on the spoke and, since the other spokes are pulling on it, it moves upward, then downward, then upward, ad infinitum. This puts stress on the head and if the head can move, it puts more stress on the head. The more weight on the bike, the more the rim deforms and the more stress is put on the head. Frankly, all spokes should 2.3mm heads.

If you really want to get deep into the weeds, here's an article that explains why triple butted spokes are a good thing. Ric has a whole bunch of other articles on wheel building that are worth reading as well. I still use and teach his building method from 1986 Bicycling Magazine (back when it was useful). He, by the way, was the founder of Wheelsmith.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!



cyccommute is offline  
Old 02-13-19, 10:16 PM
  #34  
gauvins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: QC Canada
Posts: 1,950

Bikes: Custom built LHT & Troll

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 141 Times in 100 Posts
Originally Posted by cyccommute
[snip...] Sheldon Brown discusses the benefits of the thinner midsection here. [...snip]
Yes. Interesting observation. Jan Heine has an interesting post on the topic. As you suggested, the core of the argument is that flexible (up to a point) wheels are stronger. And that would extend to the number of spokes (he writes that while 36 spokes was the norm, he's now riding on 28 spokes front, 32 rear). He also mentions the fact that wider tires contribute to wheel strength.

Not entirely clear to me if flexible (i.e. double butted aluminium spokes + wide tire at lower pressure) will make a more durable wheel (a) over time, on relatively smooth surfaces, because elasticity reduces the stress of a revolution, which is repeated a very large number of times; or (b) handles hard landing or rough roads better because the impact is absorbed rather than "fought" by the structure. (not unlike a glass disk that will shatter when dropped on the ground, vs a rubber disk that will not be damaged at all).
gauvins is offline  
Old 02-14-19, 05:31 AM
  #35  
LeeG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 137 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 81 Times in 64 Posts
Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb
Good idea about seat post storage. I've broken a few spokes which were 1980s 2.0 steel just from daily commuting, so I wanted to go crazy with strength for touring. You nailed it: 26", 36h, and 2.10" tires. I love the ride. I plan on touring on paved roads and occasionally dirt or gravel, but nothing like actual mountain biking.

So what is the benefit of the Phil Wood spokes if any?
I’m going to go out on a limb and wonder if your experience with breaking spokes was a production wheel that never got trued up and checked from day one. 36 spokes in a 26” big basic rim with straight 14g spokes is pretty bombproof. Haven’t looked at all your posts but building up a freewheel hub with fancy spokes is not getting you crazy with strength.

Butted spokes will have greater longevity but are kind of beside the point if spoke breakage came from abuse, improper build, lack of maintenance, sticks, impacts on individual spokes and overshifting.





LeeG is offline  
Old 02-14-19, 12:42 PM
  #36  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times in 861 Posts
Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb
Are you saying that you have a freewheel like a 5- or 6-speed on a Phil Wood hub? If so, which model of hub?
I bought the hubshell , aluminum flanges on a steel tube , threaded on 1 end* @ a bike shop in Sausalito Cal 'garage sale'..

mailed it to the company in San Jose Cal, and they pressed in the axle and bearing assembly, and mailed it back.. this was in the mid 80's...

* So this was from their original models , could have been from a front hub, as they had a disc brake , threaded on left side of both wheels .
( if a tandem rear it would have been threaded on both ends)
fietsbob is offline  
Old 02-14-19, 04:59 PM
  #37  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
I bought a used rear wheel yesterday. Has 32 DT 2.0mm straight gauge spokes. I do not plan to tour on it, but I am sure that it is more than adequate for riding unladen. Re-greased the hub today, looks great. Rim has a slight wobble, but it should true up easy enough. Disc, so no rim wear.

Originally Posted by gauvins
... (he writes that while 36 spokes was the norm, he's now riding on 28 spokes front, 32 rear).
....
Decades ago some of the British utility bikes had more spokes in the rear than front. When I built up my Backroad almost two years ago, I used 36 rear and 32 front. I initially planned on 36 front, but the SP hub I was shopping for was hard to find in 36, so I decided that the front wheel on a touring bike has less stress on it so I went with 32. But for a touring bike that is carrying a load, I want 36 in the rear.

Originally Posted by gauvins
... He also mentions the fact that wider tires contribute to wheel strength.
....
That one I do not get. I can see a wider rim being stronger, but the width of the tire making the wheel stronger? I can see more cushioning from a wider tire, thus less strength is needed.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 02-14-19, 05:34 PM
  #38  
Bikesplendor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb
I'm 230 lb and touring about 600 mi on a 1980s hardtail MTB. I've got NOS rims and NOS hubs from the era. Which spokes should I choose? I'll be camping, not staying in hotels, so I'll be loaded with camping and cooking gear. I do not have the weight of all of the gear yet.

I was considering Sapim Strong. But I always hear how great Phil Wood's hubs are, so are his spokes exceptional as well?
Triple butted DT Swiss Alpine III spokes.

DT Swiss tandem hubs. More reliable than Phils.
Bikesplendor is offline  
Old 02-15-19, 03:48 AM
  #39  
HTupolev
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Seattle
Posts: 4,261
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1971 Post(s)
Liked 1,297 Times in 629 Posts
Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I can see more cushioning from a wider tire, thus less strength is needed.
I'm fairly certain that that's what he's referring to. A more effective suspension between riding surface and rim should result in smaller peak forces on the wheel.
HTupolev is offline  
Old 02-15-19, 07:55 AM
  #40  
gauvins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: QC Canada
Posts: 1,950

Bikes: Custom built LHT & Troll

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 141 Times in 100 Posts
Yes. Taken from Heine

We can use fewer spokes, because the wider tires we ride today transmit far fewer shocks to the rim. Imagine hitting the bump above with a 23 mm tire: Even if you don’t bottom out, your tire is so hard that much of the impact will be transmitted to the rim
gauvins is offline  
Old 02-15-19, 08:03 AM
  #41  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 13,191
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2732 Post(s)
Liked 953 Times in 784 Posts
and which my pre trip instincts and trip experiences on my Latin American trips on this subject bore out.
Using 2in tires on my 32 spoked 26 inch wheels worked well, and I am sure it was because of the cushion effect of the larger tires that made things easier on the wheelset when going over rough roads and the few times hitting potholes in a bad way.
djb is offline  
Old 02-15-19, 08:33 AM
  #42  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
Originally Posted by gauvins
Yes. Taken from Heine
Got it, it said:
We can use fewer spokes, because the wider tires we ride today transmit far fewer shocks to the rim. Imagine hitting the bump above with a 23 mm tire: Even if you don’t bottom out, your tire is so hard that much of the impact will be transmitted to the rim


Thus it did not add strength, it just meant less strength was needed.

All my touring has been on a range of widths from 37 and 40mm for pavement and 50 or 57mm for mixed pavement and gravel. And around town near home with an unladen bike I often use 28 or 32mm. But my errand bike for grocery getting is 50mm for better cushioning of the groceries on the ride home.

And that is why I usually only put about 75 to 80 percent as much air pressure in my front tires as rear, with less weight on the front it provides better cushioning. And with less weight on the front tire, the lower pressure does not cause that much additional rolling resistance at those lower pressures so there is minimal downside from the lower pressure in the front.

Last edited by Tourist in MSN; 02-15-19 at 08:38 AM.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 02-16-19, 05:02 PM
  #43  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
For the front I'm going to look at DT Swiss Alpine III first, and also Wheelsmith DH13 second and Sapim Strong third. I'll order one of each first to see what they look like in person.

If I order blanks (unthreaded spokes) for my LBS how many extra should I provide them to build the wheel? Also, should I get the blanks as long as possible?

For the rear even though I have a NOS hub I love I may "upgrade" it before making the spoke decision.
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-16-19, 06:10 PM
  #44  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb
...
If I order blanks (unthreaded spokes) for my LBS how many extra should I provide them to build the wheel?

Also, should I get the blanks as long as possible?
....
I assume you have already confirmed that your local bike shop can thread the spokes, most bike shops do not have a spoke threading machine.

And from your question, I assume you have already confirmed that they are willing to work on parts you provide. Some shops insist that they provide all of the parts and that they charge for those parts at the prices that they want to charge.

It they do it right, every spoke they thread will be a usable spoke. I do not recall, are they doing two wheels or one? I would suggest four extra spares for the rear (two drive side, two non-drive side). I am assuming the drive side and non-drive side are different lengths. The last rear wheel I built up, by using a nipple washer on each drive side nipple, I could get by with the same spoke length on both drive side and non-drive side, but it does not always work that way.

If also the front, two more if they are the same length, usually they are same length but maybe not if disc.

If they are too long and they cut them to size, if they were double butted blanks then the thicker part where they have to put the threads might not be long enough to thread them properly.

Is there a reason you are asking that question here instead of asking the bike shop that would be doing the work?
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 02-16-19, 06:24 PM
  #45  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
Is there a reason you are asking that question here instead of asking the bike shop that would be doing the work?
No reason other than I thought I might get a more thorough answer. I'll check in with them instead.

Thanks.
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Shamrock
Touring
32
01-23-17 12:14 PM
Biketouringhobo
Touring
41
11-07-15 04:43 PM
Wheels Of Steel
Touring
25
11-05-12 11:45 AM
psunami
Touring
17
04-16-11 11:40 PM
Deathmobile
Touring
17
04-12-10 06:24 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.