Which spokes for touring?
#26
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Phil Wood makes fine spokes but I prefer Sapim Strong's with their brass locking nipples on my touring bike. I have them laced up to Paul Components hubs and WTB rims. If I had to redo my wheels again I would probably switch to White Industries hubs and HED Belgium Plus rims but my wheels are excellent and I have had zero problems with them once properly built by a master. The only reason for the switch at least hub wise is because i9 no longer makes the freehub bodies so while Mister Paul has all the parts to make these again i9 who made the freehubs has stopped making the compatible freehubs for him. I would only be switching the rims because I really love the look of HEDs.
#27
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That's probably true. I've looked at Rhyno Lite's and Velocity NoBS, but I think they're ugly. I have not come around (aesthetically) to any modern rims I've seen yet. For one thing I like a 32 mm wide rim and a shiny high polish. Like most I want function and beauty. If I get quick rim failure, I'll look at others, so I'm open to suggestions.
I toured on 1990 era rims, 700 stuff, and it worked, but then I was probably 125lbs back then
I second the recommendation , or maybe you said you wanted this, but wider tires will help putting less impact shock into your wheelset, just due to the lower pressures and greater air volume. I experience this with my 26in wheels with 32 spokes, modern disc rims though, but I am sure the larger volume tires helps a lot in making life easier for the spokes.
but in the end, function will be the most important thing, so you will see....
#28
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Here's a link to the spokes: Phil Wood & Co.
I previously said:
You mentioned Phil hubs. A friend of mine tours on an older freewheel type Phil hub and he is quite happy with it. That design also overcomes the weak axle problem, thus that would also be a good choice.
You interpreted that as me saying that Phil made freewheels, but I was talking about the type of hub that a freewheel could be threaded onto.
The rims that I am using on my two 26 inch wheel touring bikes are no longer made, thus I am not recommending any rims. But if your old rims have much wear on the brake track then I think new rims is worth it.
#29
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aw hell, I'm just going to go out and say this, the real answer to this guys question, as none of you jackasses have yet---
different spokes for different folks.
different spokes for different folks.
#32
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I recently built new wheels using Sapim Race DB spokes (2mm/ 1.8mm/ 2mm) that I purchased from Thor USA for $.55/ spoke which I considered extremely cheap. Sapim Spokes and Nipples The rim are DT Swiss TK540, the front hub is a SON 28 dynamo hub and the rear is Shimano Deore LX cup and cone hub. Both are 36 holes. I think these are extremely strong wheels.
#33
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Double-butted spokes are thicker at the ends than in the middle. The most popular diameters are 2.0/1.8/2.0 mm (also known as 14/15 gauge) and 1.8/1.6/1.8 (15/16 gauge).Double-butted spokes do more than save weight. The thick ends make them as strong in the highly-stressed areas as straight-gauge spokes of the same thickness, but the thinner middle sections make the spokes effectively more elastic, allowing them to stretch (temporarily) more than thicker spokes.
As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily-stressed spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around the spoke holes.
As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily-stressed spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around the spoke holes.
Since spokes use rolled, not cut threads, the outside diameter of the threads is larger than the base diameter of the spoke wire. Since the holes in the hub flanges must be large enough for the threads to fit through, the holes, in turn, are larger than the wire requires. This is undesirable, because a tight match between the spoke diameter at the elbow and the diameter of the flange hole is crucial to resisting fatigue-related breakage.
If you really want to get deep into the weeds, here's an article that explains why triple butted spokes are a good thing. Ric has a whole bunch of other articles on wheel building that are worth reading as well. I still use and teach his building method from 1986 Bicycling Magazine (back when it was useful). He, by the way, was the founder of Wheelsmith.
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#34
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[snip...] Sheldon Brown discusses the benefits of the thinner midsection here. [...snip]
Not entirely clear to me if flexible (i.e. double butted aluminium spokes + wide tire at lower pressure) will make a more durable wheel (a) over time, on relatively smooth surfaces, because elasticity reduces the stress of a revolution, which is repeated a very large number of times; or (b) handles hard landing or rough roads better because the impact is absorbed rather than "fought" by the structure. (not unlike a glass disk that will shatter when dropped on the ground, vs a rubber disk that will not be damaged at all).
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Good idea about seat post storage. I've broken a few spokes which were 1980s 2.0 steel just from daily commuting, so I wanted to go crazy with strength for touring. You nailed it: 26", 36h, and 2.10" tires. I love the ride. I plan on touring on paved roads and occasionally dirt or gravel, but nothing like actual mountain biking.
So what is the benefit of the Phil Wood spokes if any?
So what is the benefit of the Phil Wood spokes if any?
Butted spokes will have greater longevity but are kind of beside the point if spoke breakage came from abuse, improper build, lack of maintenance, sticks, impacts on individual spokes and overshifting.
#36
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mailed it to the company in San Jose Cal, and they pressed in the axle and bearing assembly, and mailed it back.. this was in the mid 80's...
* So this was from their original models , could have been from a front hub, as they had a disc brake , threaded on left side of both wheels .
( if a tandem rear it would have been threaded on both ends)
#37
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I bought a used rear wheel yesterday. Has 32 DT 2.0mm straight gauge spokes. I do not plan to tour on it, but I am sure that it is more than adequate for riding unladen. Re-greased the hub today, looks great. Rim has a slight wobble, but it should true up easy enough. Disc, so no rim wear.
Decades ago some of the British utility bikes had more spokes in the rear than front. When I built up my Backroad almost two years ago, I used 36 rear and 32 front. I initially planned on 36 front, but the SP hub I was shopping for was hard to find in 36, so I decided that the front wheel on a touring bike has less stress on it so I went with 32. But for a touring bike that is carrying a load, I want 36 in the rear.
That one I do not get. I can see a wider rim being stronger, but the width of the tire making the wheel stronger? I can see more cushioning from a wider tire, thus less strength is needed.
That one I do not get. I can see a wider rim being stronger, but the width of the tire making the wheel stronger? I can see more cushioning from a wider tire, thus less strength is needed.
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I'm 230 lb and touring about 600 mi on a 1980s hardtail MTB. I've got NOS rims and NOS hubs from the era. Which spokes should I choose? I'll be camping, not staying in hotels, so I'll be loaded with camping and cooking gear. I do not have the weight of all of the gear yet.
I was considering Sapim Strong. But I always hear how great Phil Wood's hubs are, so are his spokes exceptional as well?
I was considering Sapim Strong. But I always hear how great Phil Wood's hubs are, so are his spokes exceptional as well?
DT Swiss tandem hubs. More reliable than Phils.
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Yes. Taken from Heine
We can use fewer spokes, because the wider tires we ride today transmit far fewer shocks to the rim. Imagine hitting the bump above with a 23 mm tire: Even if you don’t bottom out, your tire is so hard that much of the impact will be transmitted to the rim
#41
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and which my pre trip instincts and trip experiences on my Latin American trips on this subject bore out.
Using 2in tires on my 32 spoked 26 inch wheels worked well, and I am sure it was because of the cushion effect of the larger tires that made things easier on the wheelset when going over rough roads and the few times hitting potholes in a bad way.
Using 2in tires on my 32 spoked 26 inch wheels worked well, and I am sure it was because of the cushion effect of the larger tires that made things easier on the wheelset when going over rough roads and the few times hitting potholes in a bad way.
#42
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Got it, it said:
Thus it did not add strength, it just meant less strength was needed.
All my touring has been on a range of widths from 37 and 40mm for pavement and 50 or 57mm for mixed pavement and gravel. And around town near home with an unladen bike I often use 28 or 32mm. But my errand bike for grocery getting is 50mm for better cushioning of the groceries on the ride home.
And that is why I usually only put about 75 to 80 percent as much air pressure in my front tires as rear, with less weight on the front it provides better cushioning. And with less weight on the front tire, the lower pressure does not cause that much additional rolling resistance at those lower pressures so there is minimal downside from the lower pressure in the front.
We can use fewer spokes, because the wider tires we ride today transmit far fewer shocks to the rim. Imagine hitting the bump above with a 23 mm tire: Even if you don’t bottom out, your tire is so hard that much of the impact will be transmitted to the rim
Thus it did not add strength, it just meant less strength was needed.
All my touring has been on a range of widths from 37 and 40mm for pavement and 50 or 57mm for mixed pavement and gravel. And around town near home with an unladen bike I often use 28 or 32mm. But my errand bike for grocery getting is 50mm for better cushioning of the groceries on the ride home.
And that is why I usually only put about 75 to 80 percent as much air pressure in my front tires as rear, with less weight on the front it provides better cushioning. And with less weight on the front tire, the lower pressure does not cause that much additional rolling resistance at those lower pressures so there is minimal downside from the lower pressure in the front.
Last edited by Tourist in MSN; 02-15-19 at 08:38 AM.
#43
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For the front I'm going to look at DT Swiss Alpine III first, and also Wheelsmith DH13 second and Sapim Strong third. I'll order one of each first to see what they look like in person.
If I order blanks (unthreaded spokes) for my LBS how many extra should I provide them to build the wheel? Also, should I get the blanks as long as possible?
For the rear even though I have a NOS hub I love I may "upgrade" it before making the spoke decision.
If I order blanks (unthreaded spokes) for my LBS how many extra should I provide them to build the wheel? Also, should I get the blanks as long as possible?
For the rear even though I have a NOS hub I love I may "upgrade" it before making the spoke decision.
#44
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And from your question, I assume you have already confirmed that they are willing to work on parts you provide. Some shops insist that they provide all of the parts and that they charge for those parts at the prices that they want to charge.
It they do it right, every spoke they thread will be a usable spoke. I do not recall, are they doing two wheels or one? I would suggest four extra spares for the rear (two drive side, two non-drive side). I am assuming the drive side and non-drive side are different lengths. The last rear wheel I built up, by using a nipple washer on each drive side nipple, I could get by with the same spoke length on both drive side and non-drive side, but it does not always work that way.
If also the front, two more if they are the same length, usually they are same length but maybe not if disc.
If they are too long and they cut them to size, if they were double butted blanks then the thicker part where they have to put the threads might not be long enough to thread them properly.
Is there a reason you are asking that question here instead of asking the bike shop that would be doing the work?
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