rhm

I kinda suspect --and this may say more about my prejudices than anything else-- the problem is the eBike puts a rather powerful bicycle in the hands of people who don't have that much experience riding bicycles. Most people start out slow and work up to speed and confidence... the eBike may get you up to top speed before you can really handle it.

UniChris

I think that may indeed be a broader issue. But the direct issue was the braking problem, and to the extent that is e-bike specific, it is likely because the hub motor doesn't have the limiting clutch behavior the roller brake specification requires of the hub, especially when put in the hands of the unaware.

I can think of a lot of ways that firmware of an assisted bike could be tuned more to equalize those who can't or don't want to exert themselves with the travel velocity of your average NYer on a pedal citibike, rather than being a toy for zipping around.

But I suspect the present issue could be triggered just by coasting down a hill without using the motor at all. And some of the people who crashed were cyclists of long experience.

tubesocksFred

From what they indicate here, the power modulator seems to be nothing more than something that weakens the front brakes:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_p...powermodulator


.not unlike using bottom of the line stretchy brake cables:


I do remember when the NuVinci based bikes were just out, the front brakes were so stiff and responsive...and I thought it was great..I can clamp it down and brake right at the threshold, short of flipping over, easily lock the rear wheel and do slideouts and drifts on dry pavements. But now, I can't seem to do either with those bikes. Maybe the new e-bikes are like that, and it would even catch the seasoned citibikers by surprise.


As for the e-bikes being too powerful for newcomers to the bike scene, it seems like they must have gone cheap by using the pedal as nothing more than a on/off throttle, instead of some torque sensing system that applies e-power based on how much power is applied to the crank. This way, if you pedal lightly, you don't go fast, but if you apply some power (regardless of your gearing, since power is the torque applied along with the cadence) more motorized assist is applied and you go faster. Not sure if such a system exist though.

noglider 

Thank you, @UniChris!

In that case, this seems like a major botch on Motivate's part. I agree that the bike needs to be usable by the least skilled person. They should put the motor in the rear wheel or crank. The front hub should be a proven, stock item. The Sturmey Archer and NuVinci equipped bikes have a Sturmey Archer front hub that has a drum brake and a dynamo. It works very well. Stick with that.

tubesocksFred

The lawsuits are starting to pile in:


https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...epi-story.html


The first one is odd. Either he flips over, or he slams into the pedestrian.


It seems odd that people break bones so easily when flipping over on bikes. Maybe there is alot more of these incidences and these are some of the ones where the riders got injured.


Maybe I should join into the fray because when I got door'd by a van, the cops let the driver go without taking his information because, supposedly according to witnesses, he said I did not hit the door, but flipped over handlebar on my own and went head first into the back of a USPS truck (despite telling them how was it possible for my right shoulder and hand got bruised and having limited mobility for a while if it wasn't that those are the parts that hit the door frame..but that was way after the fact) But it was a pedal powered citibike, so no luck.



Anyway, is the power modulator even necessarily? The ones built into the hub just limits the braking ability by allowing the clutch to slip. The add on module is just a spring that stretches if the cable is brake cable is pulled too tight.


How come the fact that 90% of the NuVinci hubs are installed improperly, preventing them from having the proper overdrive, not being exposed or being part of an outrage?

tubesocksFred

Today, riding down 34th st on the bus lane near the penn station entrance, A car quickly swirved from the traffic lane, across the bus lane. I thought he was only going to change into the bus lane, so I moved over slightly, but he kept coming over, heading toward a set of cutout into the sidewalk where vehicles can fit for dropoffs, etc, then his front bumper sideswiped the rear of my citibike, causing me to do some sort of diagnol cartwheel with the bike. Got up, let out some expletives, checked that I was OK, and the bike was rideable, picked up whatever my things that got scattered on the ground, and took off, since whatever that just happened was not worth missing my train over. Later on, felt a stiff knee going down the stair and some knuckle pain, but its nothing I won't get over.

It must been a uber driver or something, since nobody does sudden two lane changes in a place where you can't park or stand, especially drivers with no passengers. If it was a po-po that hit me, they would have probably found some reason to ticket me.

One thing I can say, these citibikes are build like tanks, no flats, no bent rims (although w/o caliper brakes, one really can't tell w/o looking closely), no bent frames. It survived every crash, even if I didn't (some other time).

hotbike

Citi Bike Has Gotten More New Butts on Saddles Than Any Other Bike

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/citi-bike-gotten-more-butts-110000507.html

hotbike

Citi Bike News

Citi Bike Has Gotten More New Butts on Saddles Than Any Other Bike

noglider 

"Hot coffee!"

tubesocksFred

They forgot one more tip....check for cyclist being rammed down and died by motor vehicles in the morning news before heading out. If there was one, you are sure that the c0ps are out in force to ticket cyclists going through red lights, even if there was no cross traffic....like a couple of weeks ago on the Hudson River bike path.

And dungarees? I use to wear that, but the skinnier they are, the less flexibility you have, regardless if they are 'stretch' type or not. Plus, they hang onto sweat 10x more than fabric made of performance fabric.

hotbike

New Record :
The weather isn't the only thing heating up in NYC this year. Citi Bike riders have been burning up the bike lanes like never before, smashing our daily ridership record a monumental three times this month. Yesterday, a new daily ridership record was set of86,637 Citi Bike rides in a single day— but we don't expect it to last long! Thank you for being a part of the Citi Bike community and helping us make incredible milestones like this possible. Now, let's get to 90,000! ��

tubesocksFred

I pretty much avoid the citibikes with the shimano hub, unless I absolutely have to, and usually to another location where I can swap out to a S/A equipped one. So this morning, I saw there was only one bike and it is the ones with the newly retrofitted rear fender, which I know is a shimano geared bike. To my surprise, I saw a NuVinci shifter on it, which I rode and surprisingly it was calibrated properly where I was actually able to shift it into overdrive. It also had brakes that worked. Has anyone encountered any bike like this? When I am at a station that has alot of bikes, I would look at the rear fender for lights that are bulging out, then see if it has a S/A shifter, or I just scan at all the shifters to look for the silver (S/A) one. I never spot an old fender and then look at the shifter, so I don't know if NuVinci on an old shimano equipped bike existed.

Also, it looks like they will pass a law legalizing e-bikes, with the caveat that no e-bikes (or scooters) will be allowed on the greenway, that includes class-1 e-bikes like citibike pedal assisted ones. I am surprised they wrote that into the law, or was it to prevent delivery e-bikes from using that path? I use that path regularly, rarely grabbed an cit-e-bike even when available, but they are a good bike to draft off. Now, if that is the only one available in the station, does that mean I have to take an alternate route? How would the pigs even know if I am also moving my pedals? Scan for the battery pack?

noglider 

Wow, that's a new complication, an originally Shimano-equipped bike with a NuVinci hub. Thanks for the heads-up. I also avoid the Shimano-equipped bikes.

Your question about cops spotting e-bikes is a good one, and it popped to my mind, too. Are they making a distinction between throttle controlled bikes and pedal assist bikes? If so, it would be well intended but unfair because of easy misunderstanding and easy deception (disguising one as the other).

UniChris

It doesn't seem like under this there are very many remaining distinctions in where you can use one or the other, which is one of the many mistakes in this; light pedal assist is good, but motorcycles should have plates and be in the ordinary roadways - which we should be working to make safe for that, and safe and authorized as an option for speed-of-traffic vehicular pedal cycling, too.

If there were still a difference in where you could use one or the other, you don't have to spend five minutes on a Manhattan sidewalk to recognize the distinctive build of the common throttle-based e-motorcycles and distinguish them from bicycles, assist or otherwise; other configurations are possible of course but minimally represented on the street at present. The proposed law also does establish a category labeling requirement effective in two years; seemingly if you can't get a manufacturer label for your existing ride you'd have to stop using it... I'm sure very official ones will be available on e-commerce sites shortly.

If politicians actually wanted to do something meaningful for the delivery guys, rather than legalize the unregistered motorcycles, what they really should do is institute a per-mile minimum delivery fee, not unlike what they did for FHV driver compensation; it's the race to the bottom on cost driving most of the issues. And if the downside is people order a little more locally or walk or bike to get their own food, that's hardly a bad thing...

UniChris

How will people ever climb the boat basin detour?

My read on the text is that the city council or other applicable locality would have the option to post signs allowing it. Hopefully they could be selective about classes, ie, allow reasonable pedal assist but not what is basically motorcycling. Though IMHO 20 mph pedal assist is way too fast for the more populated parts of the greenway. Something like 12-14 mph would be plenty if the actual intent were to "assist" - the result of a less fit rider plus a motor should be at fastest average person speed, not faster than it in a way skills and judgement are unlikely sufficient to manage.

tubesocksFred

It seems like the that they wrote just specifies all class-1 and above e-bikes are not allowed on the greenway, which is pedal assist and higher. So basically any e-bikes. I don't know if that means if you are manually pedaling an e-bike, it is OK.


I did that boat basin detour climb for the first time on yesterday on a citibike when they closed the boat basin path. My first reaction was I have to do this everyday? But subsequent rides north and south on the climb was not so bad, one just have accelerate hard on the slight downhill to get the momentum before the steep incline. The only people I saw struggling (besides the people who don't want to try) are the fixed gear/single gear riders. There also seems to be a path parallel to the detour which does not go up to the steep part, which I assume alot of riders will use once the whole area gets crowded with bikes. Today, in the rain, I decided to go around the barriers and ride on the main greenway path because the whole place was deserted, and later on, take one of the many detours and cut back onto the main greenway mid-way through.


As for the law allowing individual localities to permit e-bikes, I am not sure they will make the greenway an exception, given that the law was tweaked to satisfy greenway (non-bike) lobbyist so that it will explicity ban e-bike and e-scooters on the greenway. The main goal of the bill was to legalize e-bikes for delivery workers, and everything else is just a whole bunch of 'lets ban this here and there while we are at it' in order to enough people on board so the bill can be passed.

UniChris

I resemble that remark! But worse... actually my recollection is that I did make it up when I first checked it out a few years ago, but failed just short of the crest the other night. I'll blame less go-for-it under the headlamp? It is something I could learn to do, and walking the last few feet isn't that bad either, but it sure detracts from the appeal of going there at all, which was already marginal with all the traffic lights lower down and some new dismount construction detours on the lower east river. Though I guess I do have to go at least once more and get up that lat hill to the circle...

Remains to be seen - reports Tuesday are that Citibike is definitely on their case about it. But again, I think part of the problem is that even "class I" goes far beyond any legitimate need for "assist" and well into the joyriding range; if there were something that were purely and simply "assist" to bring less capable folks (or those unwilling to get sweaty before work) up to the average speed of a pedal citibike, that would be a far easier sell to those concerned about keeping an environment friendly to users on foot. Define a class of assist bike that is utilitarian but not fun, and there might not be so much resistance.

UniChris

Just saw a Jump/Uber e-bike parked in the 40's and had a look. SA rear hub, hub motor on the front.... with a disc brake. So that's how the other team solved the problem.

hotbike

Citi Bike Expansion • 3rd Phase
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tubesocksFred

DeB1asio's slow and half-hearted effort. Figures, giving he is spending zero dollars on the expansion of bike share while funneling hundreds of millions to the lightly used far rockaway ferry.

punkinevil

That's a little unfair. While I completely agree that it's ridiculous that we have the only bike share I know of that gets zero subsidy, it's been this way from the start under Bloomberg. It's always relied on corporate largess to fund its expansion. And of course local community acceptance, which can be surprisingly difficult to get.

I'm not sure about the municipal funding of the ferry, but I thought that was largely private as well. I haven't ridden it in the winter, but in the summer you'd be hard pressed to describe it as lightly used.

Let's be careful about fighting for one mode of public transportation at the expense on another.

noglider 

The MTA ferries are state-subsidized, too heavily, in my view. They cost a single $2.75 fare.

I believe it's time for the city to start subsidizing Citi Bike. There should be data that show it's good for the city and not just Citi Bike riders.

zacster

I'd say to keep the subsidy out of Citibike since it does OK on its own. From the look of the map it will come to my neighborhood in Brooklyn on this round, but I won't be taking advantage of it since I'll be retired and able to use my own bike all the time. I only use Citibike now when I'm at my office and need to go somewhere else in Manhattan and I've only used it maybe twice in Brooklyn even though I live there.

arbee

So far as I'm aware, MTA operates no ferries; nor -- so far as I'm aware -- does it or NY State subsidize any ferries operating in NYC waterways. (NY Waterway operates a ferry between Ossining and Haverstraw; also, connecting Newburgh and Beacon. Dunno whether either of these receives any MTA / NY State subsidy. Proof is left to the student; it's irrelevant to this thread.)

NYC's DOT owns and operates the Staten Island Ferry. (The Governors Island ferry is operated by the Trust for Governors Island.) Other ferries operating in NYC's waterways are private; all of 'em. Some -- under the name "NYC Ferry" -- are operated by Hornblower Co. NYC Ferry is subsidized -- deeply -- by NYC's government -- but not NY State's.

For better or worse, when Citibike originated under Bloomberg's mayoralty, it was established as privately-owned and unsubsidized. If they'd asked me (Right; now you tell one....), I might have suggested a different arrangement, but privately-owned and unsubsidized is what we've got. And there are contracts underpinning this arrangement.

noglider 

@arbee, I stand corrected. I had assumed the source of funding since they accept Metrocards (right?).

@zacster, my wife and I use Citi Bike to go distances of one or two miles. At such a short distance, it's not worth it to get out the bike, make sure it's ready, and then lock it up at the destination. It's easier to walk. Another advantage to Citi Bike is that we can take it one way.

I understand that Bloomberg specified that Citi Bike should not be city-subsidized. It was a smart political move to get the system in because people didn't know how good it would be. But it has proven to be better than anyone expected, and all of its problems come from unexpected success. It's time for the city to further improve the benefits that Citi Bike brings. City Council member Ydanis Rodriguez is the champion for this cause.