rumrunn6

nutrition timing is important. meaning learn how to use simple & complex carbs & when to consume them before & after rides. but your workouts must be intense

jimincalif

Another ride, another data point. 55 miles, about 2400’, and the last 10-15 miles sucked, I was out of gas. I upped my carbs a bit on Friday, but also rode 24 miles that day. Had oatmeal with a little milk and 4 strawberries for breakfast around 0730, started riding an hour later. 30 miles in I was feeling ok, not super strong and a bit hungry, so had about 1/2 Clif Bar. Stopped at 38 miles for coffee and bought a snack, almonds covered w dark chocolate, about 300 calories. By mile 45 I was not very strong, a bit foggy. Ate the rest of my Clif Bar as I rode home. Also noticed that for my speed on flat terrain my heart rate was probably 10 bpm higher than normal. Got home had a beef and bean burrito, then went to a family event where there was a lot of pasta I indulged in. Will see if I recover enough to ride 70 miles tomorrow. These weekend miles are typical for me, so I have to assume it’s the diet having an impact. I might just have to accept a bit lower performance as I work thru this.

Carbonfiberboy 

I haven't been cutting carbs at all. Last Wednesday I rode 50 miles, ~2300', averaged 15.8, didn't stop at all. Consumed 2 bottles of HEED, maybe 300 calories total, nothing else, felt good the whole way, wasn't hungry. About an hour before I left I had 15g whey protein sweetened with 20g natural sugar, so ~140 calories. I kept the effort down, average HR 118. I don't have a PM but Strava thought my average power was 126 watts.

jimincalif

I felt pretty good this morning, not exactly 100%, but I went out and did my 70 mile ride and felt great the whole time. Set a number of PRs, Strava estimates my average power at 147 vs 138 yesterday. Had my usual oatmeal this morning (I added a tbsp of brown sugar today, did not yesterday) and a few strawberries before the ride. Then I ate about 1.5 Clif bars over the duration. All good. I suppose even though I upped my carbs a bit on Friday it wasn’t enough especially since I also rode for 1-1/2 hours that afternoon. I also did hill repeats on Weds, about 2000’ worth in an hour, my first time this year. So another drain on the glycogen stores this week.

So, at least for me cutting carbs definitely affects my performance, to the point of bonking yesterday.

Interesting you mention whey protein. A whey protein shake has been my standard weekday breakfast for years. But I’ve learned that it apparently directly stimulates insulin production by the pancreas. This lowers blood sugar which is nominally good for controlling diabetes, but this could be contributing to overall insulin resistance.

I will have to keep studying and experimenting.

berner

I don't know what low carbs means. Is it less than half of total calorie intake,or some other number. Carbs are the fuel so it seems to me that the number of carbs ought to be as much as needed to fuel the activity, bearing in mind that during high activity it is difficult to take in as many carbs as are burned. It is interesting that the most successful marathoners in the world, Kenyans and Ethiopians, have high carb diets. There are You-tube videos on this as well as at least two books. As said in an earlier post, portion control is an important component of a healthy diet as well as plenty of veggies.

bbbean 

Well done.

bbbean 

According to interviews and published reports he went low carb off season, high carb on the bike. No one I know of is seriously advocating low carb during competition. Low carb off the bike is just one strategy to reduce body fat, lower blood sugar, and a few other related effects. There are other strategies.

jimincalif

Maybe low/off, higher/on is what I should work on. Knowing when I am going to ride and how much riding, what's the lead time I need for increasing carbs? I went from a total bonk mid-day Saturday to being good Sunday morning, so I mostly recovered in 19 hours, eating a fair amount of carbs in this time. So one day ahead? Will have to play with this.

bbbean 

Your last sentence is the correct answer. I can tell you what works for me, but that wouldn’t necessarily work for you. With that said, it has been my experience that carbing up an hour or so before a race/ride and an adequate dose of gels, drink mix, other nutrition during the ride gets me through everything from a crit to a century ride. Remember that recovery will also require carbs.

BB

Carbonfiberboy 

I hadn't heard that, but whey protein does stimulate insulin production. General agreement is that this is has a positive effect on metabolic syndrome and is recommended for Type 2 diabetics. There's one in vitro mouse study which disagrees. https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/mea...ents-1360.html
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/82/1/69/4863431
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3393628/

Etc. Perhaps this is part of the reason I've had nothing but good experiences using my 15% whey protein/maltodextrin drink on all my long rides since ~2001. I also put whey protein in my start-up drink and my recovery drink.

On the "low-carb" side, I do ordinary endurance rides at a moderate pace while keeping carb intake before and during to a minimum. My practice is to not take in calories from any source on endurance rides unless I start to feel weak.

OTOH we did a hard tandem ride this past Sunday. About 40 miles into it we started a long 10% hill and I just couldn't pedal. We stopped and I and Stoker each drank maybe 8 oz. of my malto/whey drink. We remounted and rode right up the hill, no problem. As the crazy 20-banana guy says, "Carb the F*** up!" We got a little behind on our fueling because we had been taking it easy on a long flat. We rode strong for that last 20 miles. Doesn't take much to crash out when you're running an effort right around lactate threshold.

Seattle Forrest

When I ate < 20 g of carbs a day, I could bring the dead back to life, but there was still war in the Middle East, so I didn't really see the point.

jimincalif

Yes, there seems to be no disagreement that whey stimulates insulin production. And yes, this would decrease blood glucose. But there is disagreement about its effect on insulin resistance. Others state that elevated insulin causes cells to become resistant to it, leading to higher blood glucose, leading to higher insulin, leading to more resistance, lather-rinse-repeat.Which is true? And is it the same for everyone? I'm up for blood work in a couple months, so I figure I'll do my own experiment on me and see what happens, then adjust accordingly.

Yes, I think adding whey would do this.

Thanks for the links, I will check them out. More light reading!

Carbonfiberboy 

Yeah, really! I found it difficult to sort through opinions with no written backup to find actual study results, either RCTs or longitudinal. The ncbi puts up links to other similar studies, which can be followed for even more reading.

My practice for years has been to drink 15g of flavored whey protein dissolved in plain water before meals and then 25g at bedtime. Not before every meal, just if it feels like a good idea. 1/2 hour before meals cuts down on total calories and seems to smooth out my blood sugar, just like the studies say. Amazing. The bedtime snack seems to improve recovery and prevent night-time hunger.

kcjc

I started back eating low carb in December, averaging around 80g/day/week total carb (maybe 50g/day/week net?), along with time-restricted eating (mostly 18:6 & 16:8 mix). Saturdays and Sundays are my big carb days and consume over 150g/day although Saturday is mostly in the form of UCAN SuperStartch. My week is typically 5 workouts with the fourth week a rest week and only 4 workouts. I started at 5.5 hours per week and now currently doing over 11 hours. I've completed a few fasted rides (18 hours fasted total including ride time) and longest is just over 4 hours on the trainer at low tempo pace (IF=0.78). I was starting back up after being rear-ended so this may be a bit skewed. During the first month on low carb, my intensity was lower (weekly IF ~0.74) but after that, I had no problems with higher intensity workouts (weekly IF ~0.84). I haven't done much AC and/or zone 7 intervals, mostly just over-unders with VO2 from 1-2 minutes and tempo/endurance blocks with 5-15 secs AC bursts, but I don't think low carb would hinder my performance (although not necessarily true the first few weeks). I'm not planning to do any "build" work this year, sticking with rebuilding my "base", so my tune may change next season.

bruce19

I will admit to being totally confused about diet and especially low carb. For the past few years I have tried various approaches to creating a healthy diet and losing some weight. In November I decided to look into the Keto diet. I quickly realized that just walking past the bread aisle would put me over the 50g a day goal. So, I went low carb which to me was 100-150 g a day. It took about 3 months but I lost 7 lbs. I was doing no cardio at the time and I was limiting daily calories to under 2,000. My MD suggested 1800 daily. I should mention that I am 72, 5'9" and weighed 194 at the start. I have a mesomorph body that would be typical for an ex-college football player, which I am. So, I got down to 187 but then bounced back to 191. In April we had 20 days of rain here in CT. But, recently the weather has been drier but windy. Nevertheless, I am riding about 3 days and 60-75 mi. a week. I have abandoned the low carb diet for moderate carb. Trying to eat less processed food in general. My weight seems to be stuck at 189-190 lbs. I have done years of searching on the internet and have discovered two things. You can find someone who will say whatever you want to hear about food and diet. For me, at least, moderation in all things is key. I'm back to where I started...which is: eat well (healthy and unprocessed), eat less and stay active. Now it's just a matter of actually doing it.

Oso Polar

Exactly, this is the key. "Low carbs", especially "low fast carbs" is just an easy way to achieve this - typical fast carbs (think - sweet things) not only have a ton of calories themselves, they also increase an appetite, which makes "eat less" part really difficult - you always want to eat more. And there is nothing healthy about eating sweets, cakes, Coca Cola and such.

Just Mark

This!

Carbonfiberboy 

A set of resistance rollers is a big help. Mine are probably the best investment in my future I ever made. Makes it reasonable to get the cycling days/week up to 6 in all seasons.

I lift weights, but never put much muscle on, just my physiology. With yours, you could try sets of 30 with weight so you could only do say 28. That'll trash you, and something else to do when the weather's not so great. I lift 1-2 days a week, for no more than 1 hour. I usually ride my rollers, then hit the gym. Usually when I get on my rollers for an hour, I'll take a bottle of sports drink with me, but try not to drink any of it. Same thing when I ride outside for only an hour or two.

As for diet, eh, just the usual Mediterranean kind of thing. Balanced toward veggies and whole grains, some dairy, some fish. The important thing is to eat a diet which enables you to go out and hurt your legs real good, hold the same high HR up every hill for at least the first 4000', and then recover those legs so they will go again for you in a couple days, i.e. get some protein as well as carbs.

Work on getting the mileage up to 150/week. Cyclists count the calories per mile rather than per hour, which sorta makes sense. I recommend finding a group of slightly younger, faster cyclists and ride with them or try to. I tell people to hold that wheel until the blood spurts from your eyeballs.

On rides of 3 hours or more, where you're going to bonk if you ride hard and don't eat properly, I put the fastest carb stuff I can find in my mouth. The faster, the better. Can't work hard without fuel, and the whole point of it is to work hard. If you're working hard, you can't eat but about half your burn no matter what you eat.

Anyway, that's what I do. 5'6-1/2", 145 lbs. this morning. Rode 64 miles on my single on Sunday, hard enough that I had to lay my bike down at the finish to get off it. Then 25 miles on the tandem on Monday, trying to keep the cadence above 90 as much as possible. Tuesday it was one-legged pedaling on the rollers until my legs were trashed, then to the gym to lift heavy, squatted a couple sets of my 5RM, 205-225, and a bunch of other stuff. Tomorrow, I'll do Z5 intervals on the rollers. Etc. Sounds horrible, but it's really not. Kinda fun. Just gotta do it or lose it.

canklecat

I haven't gone full keto but have lost body fat since last year and kept it off just by cutting way back on the beer. That's the single biggest change in my diet. I went from 1-3 beers a day most days, to 2-3 a month with dinner after group rides.

I'm 5'11", have dropped from 160-165 lbs, to 150 and have held it there for several months. And I could lose another 3-5 lbs of flab around my belly and small of the back over the kidneys. If I really wanted to. Which I don't. I'd need to cut out almost all sugar to lose the last few lbs. I'm not in competition for anything so I'm not that motivated.

I've cut back on some junk carbs but still use sugar and creamer in my coffee, usually 2-3 cups a day. I like Dunkin Donuts sweetened creamer.

And while I've cut back on sweets at home, I do occasionally indulge in a donut after a physical therapy session, which includes a short but intense round trip bike ride -- 3 miles of roller coaster and traffic sprints both directions.

Only difference I've noticed is that I'm as fast as I was before the weight loss, despite some injuries and illnesses. My power is actually down, but I'm faster on climbs. If I can keep the weight down as I regain strength, it might translate to being faster and having better endurance. But at 61 I've had to learn to be patient. Everything takes longer, including recovery.

KraneXL

Yes, I do high/low carb days. So just don't cut carbs on the days you train. You need them before and after for good heath. Doing that has worked well for me, but I have already reached its limits.

Remember, carbs aren't bad, its just that we eat way too much of them, and especially when they're the simple kind.

Clyde1820

^ This, basically. For most people.


Myself, it's been decades since I had sugar around the house. I don't "do" sweets, much at all. Tend to love higher-fiber foods. I make most all of my own meals. So, simplest steps are: mostly natural foods in their natural forms; a bare minimum of processed foods (those with labels, those having more than a couple of ingredients); and small-ish portions.

Energy levels even out, for me, when having a good percentage of fat, protein and carb in each meal or snack. If heavy exercise, boosting complex carbs can help with the energy budget. If putting the screws to the carbs, on a heavy-exercise day it can cut performance down noticeably.

If at a restaurant, it's easy enough to get a side dish that's non-carb, or at least complex-carb only, and to have small amounts of it.

Can easily nix carb-laden liquids.

Can bring along a complex-carb-rich food source for longer, heavier exercise periods. As a runner, back in the day, I always found a good "trail mix" blend to be decent for providing sufficient guard against short-term energy dips while providing longer-lasting energy. (Seeds, nuts, oats, dates, dried fruits, honey. Can make them at home. Small "fingers" of this could allow running for hours, over very hard terrain.)

Abe_Froman

The OP clearly stated he is cutting carbs in an effort to lower his blood pressure (assuming that is what he is referring to with 'BP,' suppose that could be bile production, or blissful parenting...).

I have never seen any study or real evidence showing blood pressure being lowered through reduced carbohydrate intake....

bbbean 

A quick Google produced;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6405669

https://www.webmd.com/diet/news/2010...ood-pressure#1

Abe_Froman

In keeping with the myriad problems with nutrition information in our current age, the research you produces is far from conclusive or all encompassing, is merely (possible) corollary rather than causative support for the idea, and that's without even talking about the lack of understanding of possible causes.

In short...it is a terrible way to make nutrition decisions...

BengalCat

Lowering carbs when not riding worked great in all ways for me. When I ride I make sure to use gels and hydrate adequately. Again no problems.