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“...Frame snaps in half...”

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“...Frame snaps in half...”

Old 07-14-19, 09:53 AM
  #26  
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Thank god the internal brake cabling was there to hold the frame together.
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Old 07-14-19, 10:07 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Steve Whitlatch View Post
At least we will never have to argue that "THE FORK IS BENT" on a carbon fiber thread!
Yet, there is the argument on whether it is safe to ride if the fork is not bent, and no visible damage.
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Old 07-14-19, 10:17 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by sdn40 View Post
Just like disc brakes, carbon isn't going anywhere
...until replaced by something else, and plan on (whatever it is) to be more expensive and difficult to repair still.

Originally Posted by since6 View Post
as Innes Ireland said:

'I'd always believed that Colin [builder of Lotus race cars] was close to genius in his design ability and everything, if he could just get over this failing of his of making things too bloody light. I mean, Colin's idea of a Grand Prix car was it should win the race and, as it crossed the finishing line, it should collapse in a heap of bits. If it didn't do that, it was built too strongly."

-Innes Ireland
Absolute truth. Also true of his road cars.
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Old 07-14-19, 10:18 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
If those wannabe racing fools would only learn steel is real, they could finish safely off the back of the pack, far from any risk of tangling with another bike.

Which, incidentally, is my usual group ride strategy. I'm not slow on my steel bikes. I'm careful. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
+1 I'm so far off the back, I'm leading the next group... Angst-free
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Old 07-14-19, 10:21 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Steve Whitlatch View Post
At least we will never have to argue that "THE FORK IS BENT" on a carbon fiber thread!
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Old 07-14-19, 10:26 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by mpetry912 View Post
Boats and bikes have high concentrations of stress - unlike an aircraft stabilizer for example - and there are some limits in the finite element models that validate the designs.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA
The biggest limit to FEA is designers assume there are no point defects in the material. Most steels are pretty forgiving to poor manufacturing techniques. When we look at the brazing jobs on a lot of bike boom production frames that's pretty evident!
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Old 07-14-19, 10:30 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by mpetry912 View Post
here's the failure. From what I could see in the video - it literally popped "while riding along". IMHO - the quest for ever lighter frames and components inevitably will lead to (some) structural failures. Remember that racers get new bikes every season ! Maybe every race! but carbon fails catastrophically where even the cracked and bent frame posted by Cuda above was still rideable - would not have dumped it's rider on the pavement.

I'm reminded of the failure of Artemis Racing's America's cup yacht - it literally exploded. Boats and bikes have high concentrations of stress - unlike an aircraft stabilizer for example - and there are some limits in the finite element models that validate the designs.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA

Carbon superiority?!

After this, how can one possibly continue to believe in such Dogma?



Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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Old 07-14-19, 10:38 AM
  #33  
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100 people currently standing at the nearest dumpster ..... waiting .... hoping
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Old 07-14-19, 10:39 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by mpetry912 View Post
here's the failure. From what I could see in the video - it literally popped "while riding along".

I think you're looking at last year's crash that Gianni Moscon's wheel crumbled under him.

For the Stage 8 crash:
Geraint Thomas relatively unscathed in high-speed Tour de France crash - Video | Cyclingnews.com

There don't seem to be a lot of good videos of the crash released. One overhead shot that is somewhat obscured at the beginning of the crash.

Reports:
EF Education First's Michael Woods slid out on a right turn and Thomas and teammates Michel Kwiatkowski and Gianni Moscon rode into him. Thomas went down on his left side but was not hurt and quickly jumped up, found his bike and got going again after a push from Kwiatkowski and Moscon. Wout Poels then paced him back to the peloton on the climb in a moment of panic.
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Old 07-14-19, 10:40 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post

That's a mother****er of a pothole.
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Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!

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Old 07-14-19, 10:45 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
Counterpoint.



Jane, you ignorant...


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Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!

"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
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Old 07-14-19, 10:50 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
BITD domestiques would get a frame rebent. In the early 80's I worked in a bikeshop in Walnut Creek, California. One Bob Roll is originally from Pleasant Hill, an adjoining suburb. He came into our shop after a TdF with Team 7-11 (and 6 weeks living with gypsies under a freeway underpass, but that's another story) and had his team bike with him to sell on consignment. He told me it had been bent back to ship after a few crashes - paint was only touched up - and you could still see a few small creases in the tubing.

Budgets and salaries were smaller then.
Ahh... for the days when cyclists personally reforged their bikes back together to get back into the race.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3...malet_incident

With a 10 minute penalty for having a kid run the bellows on the forge.

Of course with modern composites and quick dry epoxies, Gianni Moscon could have gotten his bike back on the road a lot quicker than Eugène Christophe.
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Old 07-14-19, 11:06 AM
  #38  
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Perhaps there is a solution in high performance carbon? aluminum? Just add pedals to the rear hub with gearing by way of an internal hub. No top or down tubes to skewer you on.

You hit a bump, the frame compresses and then decompresses and you're airborne, maybe additional points for passing a rival in this manner, or ramps for longest flight with bonus points.
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Old 07-14-19, 11:08 AM
  #39  
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Since we're on the TDF I always wondered how the, since retired, TDF Devil got to his many sites in the Alps to encourage the racers.

I assume that's the TDF Imp behind him.
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Old 07-14-19, 11:12 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by since6 View Post


Since we're on the TDF I always wondered how the, since retired, TDF Devil got to his many sites in the Alps to encourage the racers.

I assume that's the TDF Imp behind him.
DD the Devil isn't retired (at least anymore). He's out on the TdF course this year. Had a sighting on Eurosport yesterday or the day before, still jumping and doing DD things.
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Old 07-14-19, 11:52 AM
  #41  
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Just 20 years ago the tour started the 15 pound rule. Even steel bikes were going under that be for the rule. The big advantage to carbon is the bike shape is easy to make it the way you want it.
Steel and aluminum did not allow that. Many Carbon ready to race bikes are only 10-11 pounds and must add weight to get to the 15 pound limit.
Ed
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Old 07-14-19, 12:31 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by EddyR View Post
Many Carbon ready to race bikes are only 10-11 pounds and must add weight to get to the 15 pound limit.
Ed
Apparently since the Legalize the Cannondale campaign it was possible to make sub-15 pound bikes about 15 years ago.

But, sub-15 pound bikes doesn't just happen. One has to choose exceptionally light components throughout.

Companies should be discouraged from making overly light bikes, then adding lead ingots to them for racing.
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Old 07-14-19, 01:23 PM
  #43  
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Ah, add weight to get to the 15lb limit, that's what the batteries and electric motor are for, ballast!

It all makes sense.

I think it's called "the racer's edge"?
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Old 07-14-19, 01:35 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by mpetry912 View Post
From what I could see in the video - it literally popped "while riding along".
I don't know what video you are referring to, but in the one I viewed, Woods went down, Moscon plowed into him. I saw absolutely no spontaneous assplode.
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Old 07-14-19, 01:39 PM
  #45  
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I’m with the comment about pros riding cutting edge equipment. I sure would if I were a pro! I think carbon bikes can be beautiful and interesting in their own right.

For an amateur like me, it doesn’t make much sense from a value standpoint. If they sell for little money in 15 years, I will be waiting!

The flat earth comment, LOL! That was the winner for me.
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Old 07-14-19, 01:42 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by mpetry912 View Post
here's the failure. From what I could see in the video - it literally popped "while riding along". IMHO - the quest for ever lighter frames and components inevitably will lead to (some) structural failures. Remember that racers get new bikes every season ! Maybe every race! but carbon fails catastrophically where even the cracked and bent frame posted by Cuda above was still rideable - would not have dumped it's rider on the pavement.

I'm reminded of the failure of Artemis Racing's America's cup yacht - it literally exploded. Boats and bikes have high concentrations of stress - unlike an aircraft stabilizer for example - and there are some limits in the finite element models that validate the designs.

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA

Was the corpse of the rider that bike took out in the big red & white bag?
Originally Posted by since6 View Post
Ah, add weight to get to the 15lb limit, that's what the batteries and electric motor are for, ballast!

It all makes sense.

I think it's called "the racer's edge"?
Brilliant! What an ingenious use for those old dead Lithium-Ion fire hazard batteries, bicycle ballast!
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Old 07-14-19, 02:16 PM
  #47  
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Maybe it was a "Chinarello."

Just sayin'...
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Old 07-14-19, 03:44 PM
  #48  
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Gugie's comment about defects in the material is very telling. In the aerospace industry, component parts are subjected to non destructive test (ultrasonic, CAT scan, etc) to ensure that there are no voids in the epoxy, there's full penetration into the fibers, no gaps in the fabric layup, etc.

I am pretty sure that does not happen in the bike industry. And for the most part that's OK, there's adequate margin in the design to protect against catastrophic failure.

And while a racer may not worry that his ultra light frame has the risk of failure, I am not willing to accept risks like that. One of the fun things about vintage bikes is that today's carbon bikes will probably have all failed long before they get to be vintage bikes, 40-50 years hence.

Assuming climate change, nuclear war, or alien invasion don't get us first.

great ride today

Mark Petry
Bainbridge Island, WA USA


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Old 07-14-19, 04:02 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by EddyR View Post
Just 20 years ago the tour started the 15 pound rule. Even steel bikes were going under that be for the rule. The big advantage to carbon is the bike shape is easy to make it the way you want it.
Steel and aluminum did not allow that. Many Carbon ready to race bikes are only 10-11 pounds and must add weight to get to the 15 pound limit.
Ed
IIRC, in the Way Back....sure light bikes were possible. But given the rules about hardware needing to be consumer available, those bikes were noodly and questionable as to durability. Now they aren't as noodly, but those lightweights have engineered weight limits that many a consumer would be well over, today.


Of course this has lead to a problem.....which is that these super wunder CF bikes now cost more than cars. And result in extra costs that no team sponsors want to support for long
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Old 07-14-19, 08:13 PM
  #50  
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This is my first year on a Carbon bike. It does not need to cost an arm and a leg to have a good one. I picked up a barely used Cannondale Supersix Evo High Mod frameset for $450. I had most everything to build it up in my parts bin. I check it over before each ride. I tell myself that in today`s environment, if Carbon bikes were failing catastrophically, the manufacturers would be out of business from all of the law suits. I see way more Carbon fiber being rode hard than I do vintage steel. Mostly old guys like me riding vintage, only going slow.

I was talked into buying and building the frame by a few different people that said "don`t knock it until you try it". Well I am not knocking it anymore. Do I need it? No! I really only need a Huffy if I went by need. The bike is fun to ride. Smoother than any steel I have owned and handles better too. It really feels like a SUPER BIKE! I really wanted to hate it but I can`t.

Last edited by Steve Whitlatch; 07-14-19 at 08:19 PM.
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