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Cyclist shot on Key Biscayne

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Cyclist shot on Key Biscayne

Old 08-14-19, 08:36 AM
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San Rensho
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Cyclist shot on Key Biscayne

A cyclist was shot this morning by a guy on a motorcycle. In the video you can see the motorcyclist is riding past a big group, talking a little trash but not really being abusive. I think he was just thinking he was cute since he was live streaming to his facebook page. A cyclist comes next to him and they get into an argument and he just shoots the cyclist who is in critical condition. Unbelievable. He is probably going to claim the "stand your ground" rule against a skinny guy wearing lycra. Its open season on humans in Florida since they passed the idiotic stand your ground rule.

This is the infamous strip on the Rickenbacker causeway where several cyclists have been run down and killed in the last few years, usually by drunk/high kids racing back to mommy and daddy's multi-million dollar condos early in the morning, after partying on Miami beach partying all night.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...233983587.html

Last edited by San Rensho; 08-14-19 at 08:49 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old 08-14-19, 12:05 PM
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Open season on humans?
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Old 08-14-19, 12:21 PM
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Apparently, the guys knew each other and had some sort of beef going. Sounds like he rode with this group. He calls out to a couple of them by name and they grudgingly reply.

https://www.local10.com/news/local/m...acker-causeway
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Old 08-14-19, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by San Rensho View Post
.....Its open season on humans in Florida since they passed the idiotic stand your ground rule........
Yeah, that must be it, the societal insanity we're in the midst of can be traced directly to "stand your ground".
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Old 08-14-19, 02:02 PM
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He just died.

https://miami.cbslocal.com/2019/08/1...-key-biscayne/
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Old 08-14-19, 02:33 PM
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Bizarre story. Really a crime story that's only tangentially related to cycling. Appears to have been something personal between the shooter and the victim.
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Old 08-14-19, 03:38 PM
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There seems to be no impulse control in our society from the top on down. People are behaving like children.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:25 PM
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There's definitely more to this story. The guy on the motorcycle regularly rides behind the bike group to break traffic, often films them, and his son is one of the group riders. He also apparently knew the victim.

So this is in no way some random occurrence.
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Old 08-14-19, 04:59 PM
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Click again on the Herald article on my first post, its been updated and shows the actual shooting. Fat boy motorcyclist clearly shoots the cyclist. Look at the muzzle flash. I dont care what their beef was, there was absolutely no justification for what that pig did.

I used to ride with that group all the time.
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Old 08-14-19, 05:16 PM
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He is probably going to claim the "stand your ground" rule against a skinny guy wearing lycra. Its open season on humans in Florida since they passed the idiotic stand your ground rule.
You Southerners need to do the civilized thing, and bring back duelling in your state.
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Old 08-14-19, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Brocephus View Post
Yeah, that must be it, the societal insanity we're in the midst of can be traced directly to "stand your ground".
Some of it can, no question in my mind. All, no.
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Old 08-14-19, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by berner View Post
There seems to be no impulse control in our society from the top on down. People are behaving like children.
+1, +2, etc.
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Old 08-14-19, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
You Southerners need to do the civilized thing, and bring back duelling in your state.
Southerners? Calling us white trash? What planet are you on. Listen to the video. These guys are Cubans. Cubans are not southerners. I'm Cuban. When they got into it, on the video, they are calling each other maricon, maricon. Dont know what that means? Look it up. The guys and girls that do these rides are mostly Hispanic, and very accomplished cat 1,2,3 racers and ex racers. Many are accomplished doctors , lawyers, mavens of industry. I know because I used do this wednesday ride for many years.

Miami is not "Southern". You really don't understand. Its the "stand your ground" law and the stupid entitlement culture of Miami that is the cause.
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Old 08-14-19, 08:12 PM
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Florida is the only state that becomes more Southern the further north you go,
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Old 08-15-19, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by San Rensho View Post
A cyclist was shot this morning by a guy on a motorcycle. In the video you can see the motorcyclist is riding past a big group, talking a little trash but not really being abusive. I think he was just thinking he was cute since he was live streaming to his facebook page. A cyclist comes next to him and they get into an argument and he just shoots the cyclist who is in critical condition. Unbelievable. He is probably going to claim the "stand your ground" rule against a skinny guy wearing lycra. Its open season on humans in Florida since they passed the idiotic stand your ground rule.

This is the infamous strip on the Rickenbacker causeway where several cyclists have been run down and killed in the last few years, usually by drunk/high kids racing back to mommy and daddy's multi-million dollar condos early in the morning, after partying on Miami beach partying all night.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...233983587.html
The motorcyclist may claim stand your ground but from the information presented here the stand your ground law defense won't work. Have you ever read the law? If so how does it differ from the self-defense laws of surrounding southern states?
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Old 08-15-19, 09:22 AM
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I suspect this thread will be shut down. I'll take a moment to try to shine a little light on the topic of self-defense for cyclists just in case the mods decide to let it stand.

THROW AWAY the "fear for your life" language that is so often used when it comes to self defense. Few states use the word fear. When they do, it is generally qualified with the word "reasonable." In most of the self-defense laws I have read and in the use of force polices I operated under, the operative language is typically "reasonably believes."

It sounds like we may be parsing language, but in the legal world words matter, a lot. We have some attorneys among us who can probably do a better job that I of explaining this, but I'll give it a whirl. Fear has a different meaning than belief. A person may be afraid of heights for example and may be reluctant to approach the edge of an overlook for fear of falling. I think most people understand that. But would we understand it if a person "believed" they were going to fall if they approached the edge. I don't think most of us would. With that I hope most of you get why there could be an important difference between fear and belief.

Then we have the "reasonable" qualifier. Following the application of lethal force, someone other than the person who applied the lethal force will make the "reasonable" determination. It may end up being a jury.

Here's FLs "Stand Your Ground" law.

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

When I examine the story as relayed in the OP against the wording of the law, I don't see how the shooter can invoke "stand your ground" as a legitimate defense.

It is evident from reading on this forum that some of our members do carry lethal weapons with them when they ride. I'd implore them to read and come to an understanding of the self-defense laws of the states they ride in. And remember "reasonable belief" not "fear."
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Old 08-15-19, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
The motorcyclist may claim stand your ground but from the information presented here the stand your ground law defense won't work. Have you ever read the law? If so how does it differ from the self-defense laws of surrounding southern states?
Of course I've read the law, maybe you should too. The first 776.012, says you can use deadly force anywhere, not just your house, if you feel fearful. And 776.032 says you cannot be eve3n arrested unless the cops have probable cause to negate the stand your ground presumption, in other words, the burden of proof has completely shifted. And if the cops arrest you improperly, the police force is liable for attorney's fees, lost wages, etc. So what happens is even in clear cases of unlawful use of the stand your ground law, the cops dont even arrest. Look at the case I attached. The guy pusheg a guy to the ground lightly over a parking space, just stands there and the guy on the ground pulls his gun and shoots him. No arrest, no nothing.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine
https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/cr...g/67-575580427
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Old 08-15-19, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by San Rensho View Post
Of course I've read the law, maybe you should too. The first 776.012, says you can use deadly force anywhere, not just your house, if you feel fearful. And 776.032 says you cannot be eve3n arrested unless the cops have probable cause to negate the stand your ground presumption, in other words, the burden of proof has completely shifted. And if the cops arrest you improperly, the police force is liable for attorney's fees, lost wages, etc. So what happens is even in clear cases of unlawful use of the stand your ground law, the cops dont even arrest. Look at the case I attached. The guy pusheg a guy to the ground lightly over a parking space, just stands there and the guy on the ground pulls his gun and shoots him. No arrest, no nothing.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine
https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/cr...g/67-575580427
You were typing as I was, and your post could not have been more timely. The law does not use the words "feel fearful." The man that got shoved to the ground and used deadly force has been charged with manslaughter IIRC. That hardly qualifies as "no nothing."
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Old 08-15-19, 09:32 AM
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https://www.tampabay.com/news/public...udge-20190531/
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Old 08-15-19, 09:40 AM
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This was on a r e d d i t thread but I can't link to it because BF policy is laughably out of touch. Anyway apparently these two knew each other and there was some sort of ongoing dispute.

Florida man, cycling edition

This cropped up in a listserv.

Let me preface this by wishing my condolences to the deceased cyclist's family and friend. A tragic situation all around and no one should die doing the sport they love.

That said, this story is kind of bonkers:

I’ve done this ride many times

The group always starts wicked early due to traffic and heat in Miami.... they all ride with lights on their bikes for this reason.

You do a few laps, then a sprint line and all that.... pan flat with the exception of the only hill in the area... a massive bridge. I’d guess and says it’s 9% for less than 1k.

Anyway, this AM, they had an unbelievable event.

The news doesn’t even have all the info yet, but a friend of mine was on the ride and told me what happened.

Big group, rolls out as always... there is an exchange of words, then argument BETWEEN RIDERS. Many juniors do this ride, and one of kids father was following the ride as support... which is common. Things got heated between 2 riders.....so much so that the entire ride pulls over.... the kids father, who was following on the motorcycle, pulls out a gun. The group somehow got the gun away from him... but the junior cyclist snatches it back and then give it back to his father.... the father then shoot one of the cyclist.

Unbelievable, but true.

https://wsvn.com/news/local/miami-da...an-in-custody/
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Old 08-15-19, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
I suspect this thread will be shut down. I'll take a moment to try to shine a little light on the topic of self-defense for cyclists just in case the mods decide to let it stand.

THROW AWAY the "fear for your life" language that is so often used when it comes to self defense. Few states use the word fear. When they do, it is generally qualified with the word "reasonable." In most of the self-defense laws I have read and in the use of force polices I operated under, the operative language is typically "reasonably believes."

It sounds like we may be parsing language, but in the legal world words matter, a lot. We have some attorneys among us who can probably do a better job that I of explaining this, but I'll give it a whirl. Fear has a different meaning than belief. A person may be afraid of heights for example and may be reluctant to approach the edge of an overlook for fear of falling. I think most people understand that. But would we understand it if a person "believed" they were going to fall if they approached the edge. I don't think most of us would. With that I hope most of you get why there could be an important difference between fear and belief.

Then we have the "reasonable" qualifier. Following the application of lethal force, someone other than the person who applied the lethal force will make the "reasonable" determination. It may end up being a jury.

Here's FLs "Stand Your Ground" law.

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity, and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

When I examine the story as relayed in the OP against the wording of the law, I don't see how the shooter can invoke "stand your ground" as a legitimate defense.

It is evident from reading on this forum that some of our members do carry lethal weapons with them when they ride. I'd implore them to read and come to an understanding of the self-defense laws of the states they ride in. And remember "reasonable belief" not "fear."
Why would the mods shut it down?
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Old 08-15-19, 10:35 AM
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An excellent question. But they will, nonetheless.
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Old 08-15-19, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by San Rensho View Post
Why would the mods shut it down?
SYG was brought into the mix in your very first post. That brings up subject matter that tends to get threads sidetracked real quickly and the mods then shut them down. I read the first post and thought "This will likely not end well." Perhaps it will keep going if all behave.
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Old 08-15-19, 10:56 AM
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Florida... home of Florida Man...
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Old 08-15-19, 12:16 PM
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Yep, the guys lawyer is claiming the stand your ground defense, saying the other guy started the dispute, but the shooter had posted that morning that he was "going to split the guy in two" so that doesn't sound to me like the victim started the fight.

https://wsvn.com/news/local/bicyclis...cker-causeway/
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