Was there a "Jump the Shark" moment for high flange hubs?
08-14-19, 09:18 PM
#51
08-14-19, 09:30 PM
#52
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Coming in late, but large flange hubs were fading in the early '80's. Shimano catalogs showed a large-flange cassette hub in 1982 but I think I've seen one example in person.
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08-14-19, 10:50 PM
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08-15-19, 05:44 AM
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The first generation XT (M700) hubs were high flange:
When I was getting the wheels for my Trek 720 built- I chose the Phil "Rivvy" hub- Gloriously polished. Majestic AF.
IMG_0079 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
IMG_0227 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
When I was getting the wheels for my Trek 720 built- I chose the Phil "Rivvy" hub- Gloriously polished. Majestic AF.
IMG_0079 by Dave The Golden Boy, on FlickrIMG_0227 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
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Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
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08-15-19, 05:51 AM
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I think OP is using "jumping the shark" to mean "became unfashionable" which is not what it means.
It means "this once good thing has now became absurd and dragged out or has crossed over into stupidity and irrelevance."
It comes from an episode late in the run of Happy Days involving an absurd plotline in which Fonzie jumps over a shark while water skiing. It is generally recognized as the period when the show went into a rapid decline in quality.
Source: five seconds on google.
It means "this once good thing has now became absurd and dragged out or has crossed over into stupidity and irrelevance."
It comes from an episode late in the run of Happy Days involving an absurd plotline in which Fonzie jumps over a shark while water skiing. It is generally recognized as the period when the show went into a rapid decline in quality.
Source: five seconds on google.
There was a period where friction shifting was a point of development- but as soon as SIS came out- friction shifting was effectively obsolete.
Nuking the fridge.
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Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
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08-15-19, 05:54 AM
#56
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What am I missing?
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08-15-19, 06:37 AM
#57
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Classic 650b randonneur parts, check out the cranksets, brakes, handlebars. I guess I jumped to the conclusion you wanted a classic vintage look.
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08-15-19, 06:43 AM
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Those EX hubs are spectacular.
The 'jumping sharks' colloquialism doesn't really apply to HF hubs. They weren't short-lived gimmicks. That they became less popular doesn't mean they became irrelevant or redundant. New models are being made and old models collected and used so their story continues, unlike Happy Days. Fonzie T-shirts are ironic but not collectible.
The 'jumping sharks' colloquialism doesn't really apply to HF hubs. They weren't short-lived gimmicks. That they became less popular doesn't mean they became irrelevant or redundant. New models are being made and old models collected and used so their story continues, unlike Happy Days. Fonzie T-shirts are ironic but not collectible.
08-15-19, 06:57 AM
#59
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Saw these about a year ago.
https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=57
https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=56
They make a Campy Sheriff Star copy as well.
https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=57
https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=56
They make a Campy Sheriff Star copy as well.
08-15-19, 08:59 AM
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Was thinking Velo Orange for most of the bits though. Love that stem they have with the built-in bell boss.
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08-15-19, 10:44 AM
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Looking at that, my method of attack would be putting the freewheel tool in the vise (in the normal manner) lay the freewheel in the tool, drop two long screwdrivers into the slots of the hub opposite each other, then take a long pry bar pushing against one screwdriver and pulling against the other. With enough leverage, it should come off fairly easy.
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Last edited by sykerocker; 08-15-19 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Clarification
08-15-19, 01:11 PM
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https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/...om-grand-bois/
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...cassette-hubs/
I think there was something about the manufacturing Jan didn't like, so they dropped them from the program. (EDIT: Found it. https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/...-new-products/)
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08-15-19, 01:33 PM
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Here's one from a couple of years ago, cracked flange between the holes on an old Campy. I found a hub body for $5 at a swap meet, gave it a good polishing, swapped the internals from the cracked one, and had the wheel re-laced. That was 3,000 miles, a couple of gravel rides and one Eroica ago. Still going strong. Those modern mega high flanges look fragile to me, but those aren't 50+ years old like this one, I guess.
08-15-19, 04:40 PM
#64
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@St33lWh33ls, were you thinking of the Grand Bois hubs Compass used to sell?
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/...om-grand-bois/
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...cassette-hubs/
I think there was something about the manufacturing Jan didn't like, so they dropped them from the program. (EDIT: Found it. https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/...-new-products/)
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/...om-grand-bois/
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/...cassette-hubs/
I think there was something about the manufacturing Jan didn't like, so they dropped them from the program. (EDIT: Found it. https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/...-new-products/)
08-15-19, 05:43 PM
#65
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Here's one from a couple of years ago, cracked flange between the holes on an old Campy. I found a hub body for $5 at a swap meet, gave it a good polishing, swapped the internals from the cracked one, and had the wheel re-laced. That was 3,000 miles, a couple of gravel rides and one Eroica ago. Still going strong. Those modern mega high flanges look fragile to me, but those aren't 50+ years old like this one, I guess.
Theoretically aluminum hardens with age, IIRC, but I doubt that's it. Might be that the cracked flanges we see occasionally these days are from people using modern spoke tensions on vintage wheels. It's not like anyone measured, but old school tension was probably closer to 70-80 Kgf than the 110-120 often used today.
08-15-19, 06:07 PM
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high vs low...
@ksryder is right about the proper use and abuse of the term jump the shark.
It was in about 1975 or 1976 when I asked a bike shop owner why low flange hubs were coming into style. He said they give a softer ride since the spokes of the wheel are longer. Of course, that is bunk, but the bike world believed it for a long time, and some still believe it. I don't know why Merckx preferred them, and it's possible for anyone to come up with a belief like this and believe they feel the difference, even a highly competent champion. Jobst Brandt measured the forces going on in bicycle wheels, and he pointed out that that the tension is along the length of spokes, not across them like a diving board. The size difference between high and low flange hubs is negligible, too. Most importantly, even if one wheel is radially stiffer than another, the difference is lost in the compliance of a pneumatic tire.
I am also among those who think high flange hubs look better, not because I think they ride better or worse.
It was in about 1975 or 1976 when I asked a bike shop owner why low flange hubs were coming into style. He said they give a softer ride since the spokes of the wheel are longer. Of course, that is bunk, but the bike world believed it for a long time, and some still believe it. I don't know why Merckx preferred them, and it's possible for anyone to come up with a belief like this and believe they feel the difference, even a highly competent champion. Jobst Brandt measured the forces going on in bicycle wheels, and he pointed out that that the tension is along the length of spokes, not across them like a diving board. The size difference between high and low flange hubs is negligible, too. Most importantly, even if one wheel is radially stiffer than another, the difference is lost in the compliance of a pneumatic tire.
I am also among those who think high flange hubs look better, not because I think they ride better or worse.
Eric
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08-15-19, 06:43 PM
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I'll see your bacon slicer and your cheese shredder, and raise you a Maxi-car!
The old Frenchies tell me that the purpose of high-flange hubs in the old randonneur sphere had a practical aspect. You can change a broken spoke with the freewheel on the wheel - and the wheel still on the bike! With a double walled rim, you won't even need to deflate the tire.
There is also a drum brake on the other side, but that only accounts for one of the flanges being so high. These are riveted flanges. René Herse made some himself as well. Some low-flange Maxi-car hubs had keyhole spoke holes so that the spokes could be removed that way, again without removing the freewheel.
The old Frenchies tell me that the purpose of high-flange hubs in the old randonneur sphere had a practical aspect. You can change a broken spoke with the freewheel on the wheel - and the wheel still on the bike! With a double walled rim, you won't even need to deflate the tire.
There is also a drum brake on the other side, but that only accounts for one of the flanges being so high. These are riveted flanges. René Herse made some himself as well. Some low-flange Maxi-car hubs had keyhole spoke holes so that the spokes could be removed that way, again without removing the freewheel.
08-15-19, 06:58 PM
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So... what is the exact Eddy Merckx connection... he seems to be the "shark to jump"? Is this based on just observation, a video, an interview?
08-15-19, 07:34 PM
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I've been in that exact situation - without a large-flange! It was a freehub, so the forces were less than for a freewheel. We were in Welsh hill country. I ended up stopping near a stout wrought-iron gate. I blocked the cassette from turning by inserting an allen wrench through the spokes and into the cassette. I inserted the lockring tool in the hinge of the gate, and had my friend push the gate closed to clamp the tool's flats. It was enough to get the lockring off - just.
Next town with a bike shop, I purchased a wrench and chain whip to carry. Persuaded the shop owner to drill them for me, for lightness. I broke 20 or so spokes on that tour, so it was worth it. Now I tour on 48 spoke wheels if at all possible. Can't live that life more than once.
Next town with a bike shop, I purchased a wrench and chain whip to carry. Persuaded the shop owner to drill them for me, for lightness. I broke 20 or so spokes on that tour, so it was worth it. Now I tour on 48 spoke wheels if at all possible. Can't live that life more than once.
08-15-19, 07:35 PM
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I think Campy began the transition from HF to LF with this offering ca. 1983:
DD
DD
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08-15-19, 07:59 PM
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08-15-19, 08:23 PM
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Hey Scott, to be honest whenever I hear 650b I think Herse, Singer, and that site has some beautiful parts relating to that genre, so I was a bit off topic. I do recall seeing those hubs, did not realize they had been discontinued. I love that single speed crankset, a bit pricey though.
08-15-19, 08:42 PM
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Saw these about a year ago.
https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=57
https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=56
They make a Campy Sheriff Star copy as well.
https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=57
https://www.hubsmith.com/product_detail.php?Key=56
They make a Campy Sheriff Star copy as well.
-Kurt
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08-15-19, 09:07 PM
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I never saw Shimano 600EX high-flange cassette hubs outside of a Bicycle Dealer Showcase show. They made zillions of variations on the small-flange hubs for mountain bikes (drilling, OLD width, color) but Shimano high-flange hubs were gone after 1986 or so (except track hubs, of course).
If you want a Shimano high-flange cassette hub now, you also have to like disk brakes. The Deore and Deore XT disk brake hubs for 6-bolt disks have large flanges:
I wanted a large-flange cassette hub badly enough that I disassembled one of these, chucked the hub shell in a lathe, and shaved off the disk mounting lugs. A little more work with fine sandpaper and polishing compound and it's hard to tell it wasn't meant to be that way. It lives on my wife's Gold Rush recumbent... it's probably due for re-polishing.
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08-15-19, 09:27 PM
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If the hub and freewheel are worth saving, here's what I'd do: I would make up a set of Z-bend spokes as seen here:
https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/z-spokes/
I'd then lace a sacrificial rim to the hub using these spokes. Obviously you're not going to get anything to go in from the freewheel side of the drive-side flange, so you can either have all the spokes pointing so they're under tension when you try to remove the freewheel. Apply enough tension to the spokes so they're pulling evenly on the hub, clamp the freewheel tool to the hub with a skewer, clamp the assembly in a bench vise, say a few prayers, and then twist to break loose the freewheel as usual. It helps to have two people applying pressure since they'll be better able to control the rim... it's going to wiggle around no matter what.
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