Light Bicycle Wheels
#801
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Continental says to finish at the valve, that's how I do mine and never have any issues (not TL, just tires in general, no issues with GP4K and GP5K clinchers). I've never had to use a lever on Conti clinchers, sounds like the TLs are a tighter fit.
#802
Junior Member
Hi guys, I'm trying to decide between AR46 and AR56, disc brake, DT 350 hubs, CX rays.
Doing mostly solo 80+ mile rides. Rolling terrain, max. 5000 ft elevation gain over 80 mile ride. Not particularly windy, and I don't ride if there is morevthan 25 mph wind anyway. Heavier rider, 83 kg. Endurance bike (Canyon Endurace CF SL). Want to run GP5000 25mm with tubes. Never rode carbon/deep wheels. Currently riding aluminum Ksyrium Elite UST Disc.
AR46 (46mm deep, 21/28mm inner/outer width): depth is closer to general all around definition, GP5000 25mm will be slighty over 105% rule.
AR56 (56mm deep, 23/30mm inner/outer width): spot on 105% rule, but 56 mm depth seems a bit too much.
46 mm depth with 23/30 mm width would be ideal, but no such wheels from Light Bicycle.
What wheelset would you choose and why?
Doing mostly solo 80+ mile rides. Rolling terrain, max. 5000 ft elevation gain over 80 mile ride. Not particularly windy, and I don't ride if there is morevthan 25 mph wind anyway. Heavier rider, 83 kg. Endurance bike (Canyon Endurace CF SL). Want to run GP5000 25mm with tubes. Never rode carbon/deep wheels. Currently riding aluminum Ksyrium Elite UST Disc.
AR46 (46mm deep, 21/28mm inner/outer width): depth is closer to general all around definition, GP5000 25mm will be slighty over 105% rule.
AR56 (56mm deep, 23/30mm inner/outer width): spot on 105% rule, but 56 mm depth seems a bit too much.
46 mm depth with 23/30 mm width would be ideal, but no such wheels from Light Bicycle.
What wheelset would you choose and why?
#803
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Hi guys, I'm trying to decide between AR46 and AR56, disc brake, DT 350 hubs, CX rays.
Doing mostly solo 80+ mile rides. Rolling terrain, max. 5000 ft elevation gain over 80 mile ride. Not particularly windy, and I don't ride if there is morevthan 25 mph wind anyway. Heavier rider, 83 kg. Endurance bike (Canyon Endurace CF SL). Want to run GP5000 25mm with tubes. Never rode carbon/deep wheels. Currently riding aluminum Ksyrium Elite UST Disc.
AR46 (46mm deep, 21/28mm inner/outer width): depth is closer to general all around definition, GP5000 25mm will be slighty over 105% rule.
AR56 (56mm deep, 23/30mm inner/outer width): spot on 105% rule, but 56 mm depth seems a bit too much.
46 mm depth with 23/30 mm width would be ideal, but no such wheels from Light Bicycle.
What wheelset would you choose and why?
Doing mostly solo 80+ mile rides. Rolling terrain, max. 5000 ft elevation gain over 80 mile ride. Not particularly windy, and I don't ride if there is morevthan 25 mph wind anyway. Heavier rider, 83 kg. Endurance bike (Canyon Endurace CF SL). Want to run GP5000 25mm with tubes. Never rode carbon/deep wheels. Currently riding aluminum Ksyrium Elite UST Disc.
AR46 (46mm deep, 21/28mm inner/outer width): depth is closer to general all around definition, GP5000 25mm will be slighty over 105% rule.
AR56 (56mm deep, 23/30mm inner/outer width): spot on 105% rule, but 56 mm depth seems a bit too much.
46 mm depth with 23/30 mm width would be ideal, but no such wheels from Light Bicycle.
What wheelset would you choose and why?
#804
Hi guys, I'm trying to decide between AR46 and AR56, disc brake, DT 350 hubs, CX rays.
Doing mostly solo 80+ mile rides. Rolling terrain, max. 5000 ft elevation gain over 80 mile ride. Not particularly windy, and I don't ride if there is morevthan 25 mph wind anyway. Heavier rider, 83 kg. Endurance bike (Canyon Endurace CF SL). Want to run GP5000 25mm with tubes. Never rode carbon/deep wheels. Currently riding aluminum Ksyrium Elite UST Disc.
AR46 (46mm deep, 21/28mm inner/outer width): depth is closer to general all around definition, GP5000 25mm will be slighty over 105% rule.
AR56 (56mm deep, 23/30mm inner/outer width): spot on 105% rule, but 56 mm depth seems a bit too much.
46 mm depth with 23/30 mm width would be ideal, but no such wheels from Light Bicycle.
What wheelset would you choose and why?
Doing mostly solo 80+ mile rides. Rolling terrain, max. 5000 ft elevation gain over 80 mile ride. Not particularly windy, and I don't ride if there is morevthan 25 mph wind anyway. Heavier rider, 83 kg. Endurance bike (Canyon Endurace CF SL). Want to run GP5000 25mm with tubes. Never rode carbon/deep wheels. Currently riding aluminum Ksyrium Elite UST Disc.
AR46 (46mm deep, 21/28mm inner/outer width): depth is closer to general all around definition, GP5000 25mm will be slighty over 105% rule.
AR56 (56mm deep, 23/30mm inner/outer width): spot on 105% rule, but 56 mm depth seems a bit too much.
46 mm depth with 23/30 mm width would be ideal, but no such wheels from Light Bicycle.
What wheelset would you choose and why?
Why not tubeless 28mm tires? The ride will be incredibly smooth, and the 105% rule is a joke.
#806
#808
Senior Member
Hi guys, I'm trying to decide between AR46 and AR56, disc brake, DT 350 hubs, CX rays.
Doing mostly solo 80+ mile rides. Rolling terrain, max. 5000 ft elevation gain over 80 mile ride. Not particularly windy, and I don't ride if there is morevthan 25 mph wind anyway. Heavier rider, 83 kg. Endurance bike (Canyon Endurace CF SL). Want to run GP5000 25mm with tubes. Never rode carbon/deep wheels. Currently riding aluminum Ksyrium Elite UST Disc.
AR46 (46mm deep, 21/28mm inner/outer width): depth is closer to general all around definition, GP5000 25mm will be slighty over 105% rule.
AR56 (56mm deep, 23/30mm inner/outer width): spot on 105% rule, but 56 mm depth seems a bit too much.
46 mm depth with 23/30 mm width would be ideal, but no such wheels from Light Bicycle.
What wheelset would you choose and why?
Doing mostly solo 80+ mile rides. Rolling terrain, max. 5000 ft elevation gain over 80 mile ride. Not particularly windy, and I don't ride if there is morevthan 25 mph wind anyway. Heavier rider, 83 kg. Endurance bike (Canyon Endurace CF SL). Want to run GP5000 25mm with tubes. Never rode carbon/deep wheels. Currently riding aluminum Ksyrium Elite UST Disc.
AR46 (46mm deep, 21/28mm inner/outer width): depth is closer to general all around definition, GP5000 25mm will be slighty over 105% rule.
AR56 (56mm deep, 23/30mm inner/outer width): spot on 105% rule, but 56 mm depth seems a bit too much.
46 mm depth with 23/30 mm width would be ideal, but no such wheels from Light Bicycle.
What wheelset would you choose and why?
If we assume that a tire/rim combo that sticks to the 105% rule will save you a couple watts due to aerodynamic benefits over one that doesn't, you still have to ask yourself how many watts you'd save riding a wider tire due to reducing suspension losses. It might just be a wash, and you're still left riding a much more comfortable tire. I rode 23mm tires and noticed a benefit going to 25mm, then noticed another benefit going to 28mm, and now these 34mm tires are the most comfortable I've ever ridden, and on my 46mm deep 28-29mm wide carbon rims I doubt I've given up a thing that I'd ever notice in terms of performance. Given there's an option that would both give you wider, more comfortable tires, and also stick to the 105% rule since that seems to be important to you, I'd say you've got a perfect solution in front of you.
#809
Junior Member
Have you considered the WR50? They are 30mm wide and 50mm deep. If the 105% "rule" is really important to you, that would still allow you to ride a 28mm tire.
I rode 28mm for two seasons (GP4000 and Mavic Yksion Pro UST). Then, after nasty Yksion failure, I switched ti 25mm GP5000 with tubes. I run them at 85/90 psi. Decline in comfort is noticeable, but not dramatic. Canyon Endurance is pretty comfortable bike, so I think it compensates a fair bit of road noise. I kinda like those GP5000 25mm. They feel faster. I don't know are they really or I gained some fitness. :-)
I was looking at WR50, but don't want to lock myself out of possibility to use 25mm tires. I am more leaning to AR56, and put 25mm front and 28mm back...
#810
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FWIW, I was riding 23mm tires that measured at 27mm on my WR46 wheels, 105% rule compliant. I switched to 28mm tires that measure at 30mm and have noticed no difference in speed or wind handling, but I they are more comfortable and handle better on descents and in curves. I'll be sticking with the bigger tires.
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#811
Actually, I don't know how much is 105% rule important to me. It difficult to find any hard data on this, especially in regard to crosswind stability. I just assumed that less than optimal setup kinda defeats the purpose of aero wheels in the first place. How big is the net impact?
I am more leaning to AR56, and put 25mm front and 28mm back...
I am more leaning to AR56, and put 25mm front and 28mm back...
Using the 105% rule as a guideline, which do you think would be more aero?
Just as a side note, the 56mm wheelset with 30mm tubeless tires(and sealant), actually weighs less than the stock wheelset with tires(and tubes).
#812
Senior Member
Actually, I don't know how much is 105% rule important to me. It difficult to find any hard data on this, especially in regard to crosswind stability. I just assumed that less than optimal setup kinda defeats the purpose of aero wheels in the first place. How big is the net impact?
I rode 28mm for two seasons (GP4000 and Mavic Yksion Pro UST). Then, after nasty Yksion failure, I switched ti 25mm GP5000 with tubes. I run them at 85/90 psi. Decline in comfort is noticeable, but not dramatic. Canyon Endurance is pretty comfortable bike, so I think it compensates a fair bit of road noise. I kinda like those GP5000 25mm. They feel faster. I don't know are they really or I gained some fitness. :-)
I was looking at WR50, but don't want to lock myself out of possibility to use 25mm tires. I am more leaning to AR56, and put 25mm front and 28mm back...
I rode 28mm for two seasons (GP4000 and Mavic Yksion Pro UST). Then, after nasty Yksion failure, I switched ti 25mm GP5000 with tubes. I run them at 85/90 psi. Decline in comfort is noticeable, but not dramatic. Canyon Endurance is pretty comfortable bike, so I think it compensates a fair bit of road noise. I kinda like those GP5000 25mm. They feel faster. I don't know are they really or I gained some fitness. :-)
I was looking at WR50, but don't want to lock myself out of possibility to use 25mm tires. I am more leaning to AR56, and put 25mm front and 28mm back...
One thing to consider is that even if you got the 30mm-wide rims that doesn't necessarily mean you couldn't ride 25mm tires if you wanted to. On a wider rim they do tend to run wider themselves, and especially with the GP4Ks I've ridden, they seem to run a couple mm wider than advertised anyway, even on narrower rims. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if a 25mm Continental tire ran at 28mm wide on that 30mm Lightbicycle rim.
With regard to the 105% rule I'm ready to believe that in fact if you follow it you'll probably have the most aero wheels you could have with the same rim over if you didn't follow it, but that doesn't make it a cast-iron mandate. A couple watts more aero is one thing, but it isn't everything, and since you can probably also save watts in suspension losses with larger tires, and certainly gain some comfort, it's a question of tradeoffs. Moreover, I'm not a racer, so chasing marginal gains like Team Sky only makes sense for someone like me if it doesn't come at much cost (either in dollars or tradeoffs such as comfort). To a really heavy rider like me, who typically rides the tops or the hoods rather than assume the most aero position theoretically possible, a couple watts just gets lost in the noise. With nothing on the line, ultimate performance is nice, but will always take a back seat to durability, reliability, rideability, and comfort.
#813
With regard to the 105% rule I'm ready to believe that in fact if you follow it you'll probably have the most aero wheels you could have with the same rim over if you didn't follow it, but that doesn't make it a cast-iron mandate. A couple watts more aero is one thing, but it isn't everything, and since you can probably also save watts in suspension losses with larger tires, and certainly gain some comfort, it's a question of tradeoffs.
Puncture resistance(or the use of sealant) with tubeless tires is another benefit. During monsoon season I used to get punctures on a regular basis. This year I haven't had one.
#814
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All else being equal, I wonder about the harsh(er) ride of deep wheels vs decreasing pressure to get a more forgiving ride and where the line should be drawn.
I do know that rolling resistance of the Vittoria Rubino G+ Speed tires which I use increase significantly below 85 PSI according to the rolling resistance site. For me, that's the practical limit and I won't really go lower even if it means living with the harsh(er) ride of deep rims compared to shallow alloy wheels.
Whether that harshness decreases speed on rough pavements is not something I'm convinced of.
-Tim-
I do know that rolling resistance of the Vittoria Rubino G+ Speed tires which I use increase significantly below 85 PSI according to the rolling resistance site. For me, that's the practical limit and I won't really go lower even if it means living with the harsh(er) ride of deep rims compared to shallow alloy wheels.
Whether that harshness decreases speed on rough pavements is not something I'm convinced of.
-Tim-
#815
Senior Member
I don't know if you are actually gaining watts, but the ability to ride faster over rough stretches of pavement, is certainly a benefit of wider tires/lower pressure.
Puncture resistance(or the use of sealant) with tubeless tires is another benefit. During monsoon season I used to get punctures on a regular basis. This year I haven't had one.
Puncture resistance(or the use of sealant) with tubeless tires is another benefit. During monsoon season I used to get punctures on a regular basis. This year I haven't had one.
#816
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Have you considered the WR50? They are 30mm wide and 50mm deep. If the 105% "rule" is really important to you,
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#817
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It's well in the range of placebo. How compliant can a wheel be, if it isn't falling apart? Get the softest wheel you can find, push down on the rim as hard as you can, and then halve the miniscule dimension it moved. The only thing wheels really have to do with compliance is rim width and its effect on tyres.
No doubt the extra noise deep rims make contribute to the placebo effect.
No doubt the extra noise deep rims make contribute to the placebo effect.
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#818
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2. I would say the tire sits very wide and squat. Not super tall. Tire width is around 29+mm, measured with a ruler at 60 psi. Higher than I would ever run probably but more in-line with what normal people run.
4. No upcharge for internal nipples but I made sure to ask for Sapim upside down nipples rather than the standard external nipples. Not sure what LB does if you say internal and don’t mention the upside down. Grooved graphene track has a $60, $30 per rim upcharge though. I’d say they got it right. I haven’t had any truing issues and I’ve jumped the bike a few times and slammed plenty of potholes. I’ll probably crack the rim before this thing goes out of true lol. I read somewhere they no longer use a machine for building any of their wheels because of the vast variety of wheels they build. So I wouldn’t worry too much about trueness. I was sure to get bladed spokes though because I’ve heard straight pull + round spokes = PITA
4. No upcharge for internal nipples but I made sure to ask for Sapim upside down nipples rather than the standard external nipples. Not sure what LB does if you say internal and don’t mention the upside down. Grooved graphene track has a $60, $30 per rim upcharge though. I’d say they got it right. I haven’t had any truing issues and I’ve jumped the bike a few times and slammed plenty of potholes. I’ll probably crack the rim before this thing goes out of true lol. I read somewhere they no longer use a machine for building any of their wheels because of the vast variety of wheels they build. So I wouldn’t worry too much about trueness. I was sure to get bladed spokes though because I’ve heard straight pull + round spokes = PITA
Wow, they look almost flat at the top. And yes, I'd put even more pressure in them, but I'm also 84kg.
Last picture is exactly what I was looking for. Edge of the rim still slightly in the wind. Recently found a video where this is analyzed. Says, it trips turbulence which helps the airflow to stay attached: youtu.be/H8TZwJGrvFY?t=1443 (don't have to like the guy, but I can imagine he's right)
And good to hear about the internal nipples. Still unsure though whether the aero benefits outweigh the increased hassle when setting up tubeless (rim tape needed).
#819
Junior Member
Hi
I`m buying a new set of carbon rims for my canyon endurance cf sl disk
I Weigh 64k and usually ride around 120k with total climb 1200m to 1800m + in good tarmac roads with some windy conditions
Will ride with continental 5000 28c (maybe tubless maybe with tube)
Can you give me some advice on which model to chose? buying from global light bicycle.
Maybe (AR36 Disc,DT SWISS 240S, 12 / 100mm, 12 / 142mm, Shimano Road 11S, straight pull, Center lock, 24H, 36T Sapim CX Ray hook, with Holes Aluminium Black)?
Other options?
Thanks
I`m buying a new set of carbon rims for my canyon endurance cf sl disk
I Weigh 64k and usually ride around 120k with total climb 1200m to 1800m + in good tarmac roads with some windy conditions
Will ride with continental 5000 28c (maybe tubless maybe with tube)
Can you give me some advice on which model to chose? buying from global light bicycle.
Maybe (AR36 Disc,DT SWISS 240S, 12 / 100mm, 12 / 142mm, Shimano Road 11S, straight pull, Center lock, 24H, 36T Sapim CX Ray hook, with Holes Aluminium Black)?
Other options?
Thanks
Last edited by soulgazer; 10-08-19 at 03:11 AM.
#820
Hi
I`m buying a new set of carbon rims for my canyon endurance cf sl disk
I Weigh 64k and usually ride around 120k with total climb 1200m to 1800m + in good tarmac roads with some windy conditions
Will ride with continental 5000 28c (maybe tubless maybe with tube)
Can you give me some advice on which model to chose? buying from global light bicycle.
Maybe (AR36 Disc,DT SWISS 240S, 12 / 100mm, 12 / 142mm, Shimano Road 11S, straight pull, Center lock, 24H, 36T Sapim CX Ray hook, with Holes Aluminium Black)?
Other options?
Thanks
I`m buying a new set of carbon rims for my canyon endurance cf sl disk
I Weigh 64k and usually ride around 120k with total climb 1200m to 1800m + in good tarmac roads with some windy conditions
Will ride with continental 5000 28c (maybe tubless maybe with tube)
Can you give me some advice on which model to chose? buying from global light bicycle.
Maybe (AR36 Disc,DT SWISS 240S, 12 / 100mm, 12 / 142mm, Shimano Road 11S, straight pull, Center lock, 24H, 36T Sapim CX Ray hook, with Holes Aluminium Black)?
Other options?
Thanks
#822
A quality hub is a quality hub. Key things in hubs: Shell/flange strength (DT and CK both fine), bearing size/type (both fine), weight (both about the same), rear hub mechanism (different - CK loud and lot of engagement; DT 18pt is quiet and just good engagement), noise (huge difference - quiet vs noisy), looks (huge difference).
Many of the rear hub mechanism differences are more important for MTBs than road bikes. The CKs have a lot of engagement points (the amount you may need to pedal when going from coasting to moving before it engages), while the DT Swiss ratchet mechanism start at "18" points and can be changed to a lot. This engagement point is moot above 8mph or so, but important if you're climbing steep, muddy hills. "18" is super great for most road needs, and the higher counts are louder.
CK hubs are all bling and quality, but maybe too much of each for the price (Bentley). DT are solid bang for the buck units (Toyota). Even the 'cheap' hubs on that list of very very decent, but I'd pay for the DT 350 over the Novatech (Mazda) for the quiet ratchet mechanism.
https://sugarwheelworks.com/wheel-co...n-and-details/
I have the AR36 w/ hooks, which I use for some 30c G-One Speed tires. That rim/width would work great for normal everyday use. I think they measured 30mm at their widest point IIRC, so 28c are a good fit. I tried 25c on them, but that's as small as I'd try to mount. At this width, the tire doesn't overlap the rim, so the rim edge looks like a plastic rim cover on a car. 28c is what that wheel is built for. I wouldn't go any narrower, as fat road tires look bad on normal rims.
(calipers tilted for image, measurement is correct for tire) AR36 w/ 30c mounted - https://imgur.com/seNpQL7
https://imgur.com/OQvMkXi
The 36mm deep wheels (U shaped) are way less sketchy in gusts than my 32mm AL DT Swiss Rims (V shaped), which can move around 4-6" in very gust winds. I wouldn't worry about going a bit deeper or going with a 36mm f and 46mm rear setup. Visually, 36mm wheels are super modest. I'd go 46mm for my road needs, but these were for gravel too where I need to think about crossing moving water.
BTW - I'd go white logos, as my white logo DT Swiss rims look better than my stealth logo LB rims to my eye.
Many of the rear hub mechanism differences are more important for MTBs than road bikes. The CKs have a lot of engagement points (the amount you may need to pedal when going from coasting to moving before it engages), while the DT Swiss ratchet mechanism start at "18" points and can be changed to a lot. This engagement point is moot above 8mph or so, but important if you're climbing steep, muddy hills. "18" is super great for most road needs, and the higher counts are louder.
CK hubs are all bling and quality, but maybe too much of each for the price (Bentley). DT are solid bang for the buck units (Toyota). Even the 'cheap' hubs on that list of very very decent, but I'd pay for the DT 350 over the Novatech (Mazda) for the quiet ratchet mechanism.
https://sugarwheelworks.com/wheel-co...n-and-details/
I have the AR36 w/ hooks, which I use for some 30c G-One Speed tires. That rim/width would work great for normal everyday use. I think they measured 30mm at their widest point IIRC, so 28c are a good fit. I tried 25c on them, but that's as small as I'd try to mount. At this width, the tire doesn't overlap the rim, so the rim edge looks like a plastic rim cover on a car. 28c is what that wheel is built for. I wouldn't go any narrower, as fat road tires look bad on normal rims.
(calipers tilted for image, measurement is correct for tire) AR36 w/ 30c mounted - https://imgur.com/seNpQL7
https://imgur.com/OQvMkXi
The 36mm deep wheels (U shaped) are way less sketchy in gusts than my 32mm AL DT Swiss Rims (V shaped), which can move around 4-6" in very gust winds. I wouldn't worry about going a bit deeper or going with a 36mm f and 46mm rear setup. Visually, 36mm wheels are super modest. I'd go 46mm for my road needs, but these were for gravel too where I need to think about crossing moving water.
BTW - I'd go white logos, as my white logo DT Swiss rims look better than my stealth logo LB rims to my eye.
Last edited by jfranci3; 10-08-19 at 09:31 AM.
#823
Firm but gentle
Wow! What a wealth of real world experience this thread has yielded. I spent an hour and skipped to the end, so forgive me if I missed something. I am looking forward to going road tubeless on carbon rims next spring, and I have one question: Sealant? I always thought it was necessary for any sort of reliability, so why no mention of sealants? Educate me, and thanks to all for posting.
#824
That's a different thread/topic.
Consensus - they all have their problems. Carbon doesn't matter.
Orange Seal - generally loved, but dries out in about a month. will turn TLR tire sidewall lettering orange-ish.
Stans - most common, but doesn't seal as well.
Specialized - just came out with a 'rapid air' gunk for higher pressure sealing. might be worth a try.
There are two types of tubeless tires - tubeless ready (TLR) and tubeless (TL). TLR doesn't have a liner on the inside, lighter, sealant will seep through, and it's hard to remove the dried up gunk. TL has a smooth interior liner, doesn't need the goo to generally work, you still want the goo, and easier to clean dried up goo.
Consensus - they all have their problems. Carbon doesn't matter.
Orange Seal - generally loved, but dries out in about a month. will turn TLR tire sidewall lettering orange-ish.
Stans - most common, but doesn't seal as well.
Specialized - just came out with a 'rapid air' gunk for higher pressure sealing. might be worth a try.
There are two types of tubeless tires - tubeless ready (TLR) and tubeless (TL). TLR doesn't have a liner on the inside, lighter, sealant will seep through, and it's hard to remove the dried up gunk. TL has a smooth interior liner, doesn't need the goo to generally work, you still want the goo, and easier to clean dried up goo.