Gino Bartali owned 1947 Legnano on the market~
11-07-19, 05:04 PM
#26
Senior Member
11-07-19, 05:10 PM
#27
Senior Member
I wonder if anyone's taken a peak down the seat tube...
Last edited by P!N20; 11-07-19 at 05:15 PM.
11-07-19, 05:13 PM
#28
Banned.
Look no further for an example than the plethora of us here on C&V who lovingly restore or preserve bikes that go for less than 1/100th of the asking price. Should that Herse tandem shared recently be in a museum or slowly and carefully restored as close-to-original as planned by the new owner? I vote the latter.
DD
11-07-19, 05:27 PM
#29
Senior Member
11-07-19, 05:30 PM
#30
Senior Member
"Throwing to the market" is the best thing that could possibly happen if it's genuine. Think about it! The only people that will pay that kind of money will be enthusiasts who will most likely have deeper interest in "keeping it real". Nobody's going to pay nearly 100k and do anything but preserve it.
Look no further for an example than the plethora of us here on C&V who lovingly restore or preserve bikes that go for less than 1/100th of the asking price. Should that Herse tandem shared recently be in a museum or slowly and carefully restored as close-to-original as planned by the new owner? I vote the latter.
DD
Look no further for an example than the plethora of us here on C&V who lovingly restore or preserve bikes that go for less than 1/100th of the asking price. Should that Herse tandem shared recently be in a museum or slowly and carefully restored as close-to-original as planned by the new owner? I vote the latter.
DD
11-07-19, 05:45 PM
#31
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...I think we purchase best in the market when we do so through the values of humanity/soul, because we have already given the value of our joy/enjoyment to the thing, and then if we use it: ride it, drive it, make things with it, we enter a time machine and for some moments on some rides/uses are in the domain of those artists, riders, etc. who created the soul that lives in the thing and that, that is priceless.
The person who buys this bike, however, may not assign value to it for the same reasons that you or I would: For them it's value may be the prestige that it brings to their collection or the belief that it will increase in value.
I wonder what modest Bartali would think of all this.
Brent
11-07-19, 05:55 PM
#32
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Very nicely said, and I agree with you entirely.
The person who buys this bike, however, may not assign value to it for the same reasons that you or I would: For them it's value may be the prestige that it brings to their collection or the belief that it will increase in value.
I wonder what modest Bartali would think of all this.
Brent
The person who buys this bike, however, may not assign value to it for the same reasons that you or I would: For them it's value may be the prestige that it brings to their collection or the belief that it will increase in value.
I wonder what modest Bartali would think of all this.
Brent
11-07-19, 07:53 PM
#33
Partially Sane.
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Along these lines, I just finished a book today, entitled "Himmler", (forget the author's name already), written back in the '60s, during some of the war-crime trials. It was mostly historical, obviously, but they didn't really get too graphical in the writing. That was one creepy guy, worse than Hitler, by a long shot. 🙁👎
11-07-19, 08:03 PM
#34
Useless Member
I'm sure it's priced where only a museum could afford it. I mean a few benefactors could contribute and it might just find it's home in a suiting place.
11-07-19, 08:05 PM
#35
Senior Member
I´m a little surprised, that no one appears to question the validity of the story. The only evidence we have, that this is actually one of Gino Bartali´s bikes, is a piece of paper from someone who is now dead (How convinient for the seller!), and thus can´t confirm it.
Some years ago, the Italians were notorious for selling fakes of collectible whiskies (Many were actually Macallan, or in some cases just fakes of Macallan with other whiskies in the bottles).
Faking is also far too common in the vintage guitar world. It is often said, that of the around 1700 sunburst Gibson Les Paul guitars made between 1958-1960, around 3000 of them is known today. A 1958 Gibson Explorer have even been sold to several well known players/collectors with photo documentation from the "original" owner from the early sixties. Only problem is, that both the guitar and the photos are fakes. I´m pretty sure that the only winners in that case were the legal representatives in the court cases.
So A: Is the bike actually what it is claimed to be. I have no idea, as I know nothing of Legnano. It might well be what it is claimed to be.
But B: It is actually an ex Gino Bartali bike?. Again I know nothing, and it might well be true. But if I were buying the bike, I sure would want some very convincing evidence that the Bartali connection is real. Just like if I were buying a Hendrix guitar, I really would want some very good provenance, before I paid the HUGE extra amount of money, that a Hendrix connection would warrant.
And whats up with the text in the ad?. Does it matter that Bartali alledgedly saved a lot of jews in the war. Don´t get me wrong, I think it´s great, and if he wasen´t given a medal for it, then I think he should have been given one. But I would not be willing to give the current seller of the bike anything for that.
In my estimation, at least 90% of the like in questions price, is down to the Bartali connection. The provenance given is certainly not enough to make me want to pay that kind of money.
Again, I have no reason to believe that anything in the listing is not true, but really, better provenance is needed in my opinion, to pay that kind of money. Fortunately this bike is around 94.800$ beyond my current budget, so I don´t have to worry ´bout it.
Some years ago, the Italians were notorious for selling fakes of collectible whiskies (Many were actually Macallan, or in some cases just fakes of Macallan with other whiskies in the bottles).
Faking is also far too common in the vintage guitar world. It is often said, that of the around 1700 sunburst Gibson Les Paul guitars made between 1958-1960, around 3000 of them is known today. A 1958 Gibson Explorer have even been sold to several well known players/collectors with photo documentation from the "original" owner from the early sixties. Only problem is, that both the guitar and the photos are fakes. I´m pretty sure that the only winners in that case were the legal representatives in the court cases.
So A: Is the bike actually what it is claimed to be. I have no idea, as I know nothing of Legnano. It might well be what it is claimed to be.
But B: It is actually an ex Gino Bartali bike?. Again I know nothing, and it might well be true. But if I were buying the bike, I sure would want some very convincing evidence that the Bartali connection is real. Just like if I were buying a Hendrix guitar, I really would want some very good provenance, before I paid the HUGE extra amount of money, that a Hendrix connection would warrant.
And whats up with the text in the ad?. Does it matter that Bartali alledgedly saved a lot of jews in the war. Don´t get me wrong, I think it´s great, and if he wasen´t given a medal for it, then I think he should have been given one. But I would not be willing to give the current seller of the bike anything for that.
In my estimation, at least 90% of the like in questions price, is down to the Bartali connection. The provenance given is certainly not enough to make me want to pay that kind of money.
Again, I have no reason to believe that anything in the listing is not true, but really, better provenance is needed in my opinion, to pay that kind of money. Fortunately this bike is around 94.800$ beyond my current budget, so I don´t have to worry ´bout it.
But, if you actually thought about it, at that price, or even at $25K, you would spend the $2500 to actually go there and get whatever info you needed to buy or not buy the bike. The seller isn't some idiot thinking some other idiot is going to fork over that kind of cash for a bike sight unseen. The purpose of the ebay listing is purely to advertise the sale, nothing more.
But keep up the knee jerk reactions, they are entertaining.
11-08-19, 05:44 PM
#37
Everybody I knew who cared all that much about Bartali has gone to that big velodrome in the sky....
And most who even know who he was are at the stage where it's time to restrain the collection.
And most who even know who he was are at the stage where it's time to restrain the collection.
11-08-19, 06:59 PM
#38
Banned.
However, restraint is definitely on my plate. Just finished some tweaks on my what? track bike?
egads!
11-08-19, 07:03 PM
#39
Banned.
"a picture is worth 1000 words."
I'd prefer you use a camera.
I'd prefer you use a camera.
I´m a little surprised, that no one appears to question the validity of the story. The only evidence we have, that this is actually one of Gino Bartali´s bikes, is a piece of paper from someone who is now dead (How convinient for the seller!), and thus can´t confirm it.
Some years ago, the Italians were notorious for selling fakes of collectible whiskies (Many were actually Macallan, or in some cases just fakes of Macallan with other whiskies in the bottles).
Faking is also far too common in the vintage guitar world. It is often said, that of the around 1700 sunburst Gibson Les Paul guitars made between 1958-1960, around 3000 of them is known today. A 1958 Gibson Explorer have even been sold to several well known players/collectors with photo documentation from the "original" owner from the early sixties. Only problem is, that both the guitar and the photos are fakes. I´m pretty sure that the only winners in that case were the legal representatives in the court cases.
So A: Is the bike actually what it is claimed to be. I have no idea, as I know nothing of Legnano. It might well be what it is claimed to be.
But B: It is actually an ex Gino Bartali bike?. Again I know nothing, and it might well be true. But if I were buying the bike, I sure would want some very convincing evidence that the Bartali connection is real. Just like if I were buying a Hendrix guitar, I really would want some very good provenance, before I paid the HUGE extra amount of money, that a Hendrix connection would warrant.
And whats up with the text in the ad?. Does it matter that Bartali alledgedly saved a lot of jews in the war. Don´t get me wrong, I think it´s great, and if he wasen´t given a medal for it, then I think he should have been given one. But I would not be willing to give the current seller of the bike anything for that.
In my estimation, at least 90% of the like in questions price, is down to the Bartali connection. The provenance given is certainly not enough to make me want to pay that kind of money.
Again, I have no reason to believe that anything in the listing is not true, but really, better provenance is needed in my opinion, to pay that kind of money. Fortunately this bike is around 94.800$ beyond my current budget, so I don´t have to worry ´bout it.
Some years ago, the Italians were notorious for selling fakes of collectible whiskies (Many were actually Macallan, or in some cases just fakes of Macallan with other whiskies in the bottles).
Faking is also far too common in the vintage guitar world. It is often said, that of the around 1700 sunburst Gibson Les Paul guitars made between 1958-1960, around 3000 of them is known today. A 1958 Gibson Explorer have even been sold to several well known players/collectors with photo documentation from the "original" owner from the early sixties. Only problem is, that both the guitar and the photos are fakes. I´m pretty sure that the only winners in that case were the legal representatives in the court cases.
So A: Is the bike actually what it is claimed to be. I have no idea, as I know nothing of Legnano. It might well be what it is claimed to be.
But B: It is actually an ex Gino Bartali bike?. Again I know nothing, and it might well be true. But if I were buying the bike, I sure would want some very convincing evidence that the Bartali connection is real. Just like if I were buying a Hendrix guitar, I really would want some very good provenance, before I paid the HUGE extra amount of money, that a Hendrix connection would warrant.
And whats up with the text in the ad?. Does it matter that Bartali alledgedly saved a lot of jews in the war. Don´t get me wrong, I think it´s great, and if he wasen´t given a medal for it, then I think he should have been given one. But I would not be willing to give the current seller of the bike anything for that.
In my estimation, at least 90% of the like in questions price, is down to the Bartali connection. The provenance given is certainly not enough to make me want to pay that kind of money.
Again, I have no reason to believe that anything in the listing is not true, but really, better provenance is needed in my opinion, to pay that kind of money. Fortunately this bike is around 94.800$ beyond my current budget, so I don´t have to worry ´bout it.
11-08-19, 07:38 PM
#40
Senior Member
I would think you'd get a better price in Italy than here.
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11-08-19, 09:07 PM
#41
Senior Member
The economy in Italy is not terrific right now. The new car market is in trouble.
Fiat is axing the Panda small car, can't make any money with it. New EU CO2 regs are hitting hard- the testing thanks to the VW scandal has tightened up loopholes. Some car companies saw a surge of sales then a dramatic fall off as they could not sell cars waiting for type approval.
so, it does not surprise me not being offered in Italy now. I should look if it had been previously and the listing timed out.
Fiat is axing the Panda small car, can't make any money with it. New EU CO2 regs are hitting hard- the testing thanks to the VW scandal has tightened up loopholes. Some car companies saw a surge of sales then a dramatic fall off as they could not sell cars waiting for type approval.
so, it does not surprise me not being offered in Italy now. I should look if it had been previously and the listing timed out.
11-08-19, 10:25 PM
#42
Only person I can think of who could get emotional over Bartali would be Rudy Seno. He'd be 89 if he were around. Dom Ori or Ron Palazzo could talk with Rudi about that era, Gino was not all that big a deal to them. Charlie Yaccino would get a little excited talking about the old races but he'd be 110 now and he didn't have a penny. Any of them would offer a toast, with sincerity, to Gino.
There's last call and there's closing time. And then we sleep.
There's last call and there's closing time. And then we sleep.
11-09-19, 04:24 AM
#43
Senior Member
The economy in Italy is not terrific right now. The new car market is in trouble.
Fiat is axing the Panda small car, can't make any money with it. New EU CO2 regs are hitting hard- the testing thanks to the VW scandal has tightened up loopholes. Some car companies saw a surge of sales then a dramatic fall off as they could not sell cars waiting for type approval.
so, it does not surprise me not being offered in Italy now. I should look if it had been previously and the listing timed out.
Fiat is axing the Panda small car, can't make any money with it. New EU CO2 regs are hitting hard- the testing thanks to the VW scandal has tightened up loopholes. Some car companies saw a surge of sales then a dramatic fall off as they could not sell cars waiting for type approval.
so, it does not surprise me not being offered in Italy now. I should look if it had been previously and the listing timed out.
And even though their economy may be tanking, there are always people with money.
I wonder where the seller would land. I know the seller with the original Giotto would probably take 25,000. I bet you could get it for less time of year. I also think he is somewhat optimistic at 25, but it is a unique bike. So I can't imagine this Bartali coming in much higher than 25. Do you know any other precedents?
11-09-19, 07:57 AM
#44
Senior Member
Who knows, there is an interesting change that seems to effect some best offer eBay transactions, if an under offer is accepted, the original price is struck out but thr transaction is cloaked. Well some of the time, might be cloaked in a quick search of completed transactions but can be found if the item had been on a member’s search set, I forget what they call that, I stumbled on it once and was surprised the actual price was declared. No matter here as only a buy it now, but the vagueness of eBay at work.
this bike looks the part, but so did the Gloria that Gridplan bought. Life did even up the score for that seller eventually.
this bike looks the part, but so did the Gloria that Gridplan bought. Life did even up the score for that seller eventually.
11-09-19, 08:03 AM
#45
Senior Member
Patrizio Bertelli has enough money, but he has been financing flying America’s Cup sailboats of late.
11-09-19, 11:27 AM
#46
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"Hey, I put that in the shed when I got that yellow bike with my name on it"
11-09-19, 09:39 PM
#47
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The majority of transportation museums I know of rely on grants*, deep-pocketed donors, or serve as a tax shelter structured around an affluent collector's own personal vehicles. When any of these funds or benefits run out, so does the museum. Either that, or the museum gets so busy chasing funding that the exhibits become dictated by the soup du jour of grants available at any given time.
What's more, I've yet to see any museum exhibit a bicycle (or vehicle, for that matter) in a manner that allows the more eager patron to really delve into the depth of history behind said exhibit. I know this does exist in some exceptional cases (the Swiss Museum of Transport, for instance), and sometimes the artifacts speak for themselves. Still, I'm tired of museum after museum with:
A. Overcaffinated one-page write-ups that read as if the artifact's Wikipedia page was hijacked by a C-grade college marketing student, where I learn absolutely nothing new about what I came to see,
or
B. The artifact's real story wrapped around some tall-tale BS, made worse with grammar that resembles those unintelligible mind barfs that Vintage_Schwinn likes to post here on occasion.
Should that be the fate of this bike? Nah. I'd rather chance on it at some obscure event, and have its new, eager owner (if such a thing will ever happen at this idiotic price) wax poetic about the tiniest of details relating to its history. Not that waxing poetic about it's history is exactly possible since all it seems to have is a Microsoft Word Provenance Report™.
-Kurt
*even part of the Smithsonian's funds are federal grants, not just appropriated federal funds.
What's more, I've yet to see any museum exhibit a bicycle (or vehicle, for that matter) in a manner that allows the more eager patron to really delve into the depth of history behind said exhibit. I know this does exist in some exceptional cases (the Swiss Museum of Transport, for instance), and sometimes the artifacts speak for themselves. Still, I'm tired of museum after museum with:
A. Overcaffinated one-page write-ups that read as if the artifact's Wikipedia page was hijacked by a C-grade college marketing student, where I learn absolutely nothing new about what I came to see,
or
B. The artifact's real story wrapped around some tall-tale BS, made worse with grammar that resembles those unintelligible mind barfs that Vintage_Schwinn likes to post here on occasion.
Should that be the fate of this bike? Nah. I'd rather chance on it at some obscure event, and have its new, eager owner (if such a thing will ever happen at this idiotic price) wax poetic about the tiniest of details relating to its history. Not that waxing poetic about it's history is exactly possible since all it seems to have is a Microsoft Word Provenance Report™.
-Kurt
*even part of the Smithsonian's funds are federal grants, not just appropriated federal funds.
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Last edited by cudak888; 11-09-19 at 09:47 PM.
11-12-19, 10:45 PM
#48
Senior Member
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