Drillium Dude 

I made a promise to myself that this winter I'd clean up the tubular wheelset that came with the Bianchi I purchased in late July. My intention is to have a dedicated tubular bike which I reserve for specific types of rides. Anyway, I came across this issue earlier and had forgotten to ask the collective about it until now.

The wheels were built with a classic 4-cross lacing. However, unlike every 4-cross lacing I've ever come across the outer spokes do not pass over the first three spokes and underneath the fourth, they simply pass over all four spokes. I've not ridden them yet (need truing, glue was dry and tires peeled right off with zero pressure, stuff like that), but wouldn't this cause excessive flex in the wheel?

Here's a visual for clarity:



I leave the wheel stuff to the pros. I'm too old to learn this particular new trick - or more like, I can't currently be bothered

What I am trying to decide is which direction I want to go in. If I don't have to rebuild, I'll feel fine about the look. If I have to rebuild, I'd prefer then to upgrade with better spokes and perhaps virgin rims as well. Hmmm..

What do you all think? Is this a poorly-built and potentially weak lacing? Does it need to be rectified or is it fine as it sits (truing notwithstanding)?

Thanks!

DD

Bianchigirll 

My guess is someone just goofed lacing the wheels, and no one ever caught it or cared.

if the rims are in good shape someone could relieve the tension and just slip the offending spokes back under where they belong.

jcb3

Looks like 4 cross to me. Seems to me the weaving that last cross adds lateral strength and probably makes the wheel harder to keep true.

Me, I'd rebuild it, because I can and have the tools.

Kuromori

Brandt says it improves reliability because you have a second spoke that can take up some of the slack in the first one if that one is detensioned for some reason, and gives slightly more spoke clearance for the RD. It's not such a big issue on front wheels which are less loaded and frequently built 0-cross with no interlacing possible. It's a bigger issue on the rear because of torque and asymmetry. Even though rear wheels are often build radial NDS, crossed NDS spokes still transmit some torque, and leading spokes tend to detension under torque.

John E

That is a 4X pattern on a medium flange hub, and those look like pretty heavy gauge spokes, so I can see why the builder didn't interlace the outermost cross. Try it out and see if you have enough flex in the spokes to do the outer cross properly. This is one reason I have gravitated to 3X in most of my builds -- lacing the spokes is generally easier, and I don't think there is any significant difference in wheel strength or stiffness. I always liked the fact that 4X torque spokes pull almost tangentially to the rim, but how important is that in actuality?

Drillium Dude 

That's what I thought, that it would help laterally if at least one weave occurred per spoke. That's a lot more than not over the course of 36 spokes. Oh, and thanks for catching that it's actually 4-cross. I updated my initial post to reflect that correction.

DD

Drillium Dude 

That is part of the project portion of getting these wheels together, but I was wondering how to proceed. I wouldn't knock the rim out of whack if I removed the nipples from and interlaced two spokes at a time, would I? That way I can go slow, get a feel for it, try to get it as close to trued as I can before having the pros at my LBS finish it off. I have never messed with wheels before and don't want to build in any problems.

DD

bwilli88 

If I did anything to interweave the spokes I would detension to whole wheel and then remove and weave 2 at a time. Could be a great time to replace the rim also, new nipples would be good.

Mad Honk 

Drillium Dude,
Why mess with something that is working? Lacing on wheels is kind of over-rated, just like is it three or four cross? The lacing thing does very little in the bigger picture of tensions to hub and rim. I build my wheels differently than Jobst-Brant, but they have withstood Race Across America just fine. JMHO, MH

Drillium Dude 

Because I don't know if it's working (see post #1 ).

DD

Prowler 

Me too, two at a time. You'll also ensure that all the nipples are turning free and smooth. This is a great to start learning wheel building. I started when I just past 60yrs. "Too old". Only in your mind.

On each of my winter projects (like those on my Fuji) I completely detention both wheels to ensure the nipples are ok - turn freely on the spoke and within the rim hole. Those wheels sure look like a "dogs breakfast" when all relaxed. But some good tunes, hot cuppa and take my time and after a while, boing, the dmmmmmn thing is tensioned and true. Neato! Wheels don't intimidate me any more.

Go go for it.

Bianchi84

My Schwinn factory training in the mid eighties taught me to interlace, so that's how I've always built wheels. (Except for my radially spoked front wheel!)

repechage

First time I ran across this was while working as a mechanic at a bike shop, I think one bike was an Orange Raleigh Record- it works, was not harder to true that other wheels. If a spoke breaks on the rear wheel, might create more of a mess.

I would switch it to the more “expected” way, just conforming aesthetics I suppose. I would get tired of answering the questions.

probably marginally faster to build the wheel without interlacing.

unterhausen

Tie and solder

Drillium Dude 

Thanks for that suggestion. Is there a rule of thumb when de-tensioning? I was thinking a couple turns every other spoke until around once, then reverse the order for the skipped spokes.

DD

Drillium Dude 

As before, the answers you seek are in post #1 .

DD

Drillium Dude 

Oh, I will try the de-tension and who knows, maybe replace each spoke and nipple in each wheel one at a time for my first "wheel build". Probably that's the best way for me to do it. Plus this might just be the best wheel for me to practice on. I don't currently have a truing stand, however. I'll get it as close as I can

I'm kinda mixed on what I want to do with this pair. They came on the Bianchi, but I think I'm going to use them on the Casati. I've seen at least one reference to the spokes as being heavy gauge and that would help to keep this a strong wheelset - and the aesthetics aren't even a problem for use on the Casati. So keeping the old ratty spokes and used rims (marked braking surface, but not much wear) might be the way to go - I could just replace all the nipples for safety's sake, I suppose.

DD

Drillium Dude 

Exactly. I've never seen this before. When something is out of the norm - and out of my wheelhouse - I ask the experts. I'm honestly surprised (happily so) that it appears the consensus is that most would re-do the wheel, but also agree it doesn't make much difference except aesthetically. I hardly notice it. I found this anomaly totally by accident when trying to straighten out the Bianchi's rear triangle this past summer.

DD

Drillium Dude 

I have never gone this nth degree yet. Yet

But yeah, I suppose that would do it. I think I'm going to disassemble them first, see if I can return them to service.

DD

Prowler 

Here, I'll discourage you. Releasing two at a time to just cross one over the other is not onerous. Replacing two at a time is getting onerous as you have to deal with getting the old spokes out and the new'ens fed in. Remember that the spokes must flow out of the hub holes and across the hub. Then the new'ens fed back in. Not trivial. I had to do several spokes on my Fuji due to rust. Fussy job and I know what I'm doing, used to it, don'it plenty (at home and at LBS).

I vote replacing them all, one at a time, is not a good way to start. Too much frustration and you'll probably scratch the rims a couple times.

However if you want to try a few on a scrap wheel, that would learn ya something. Your LBS may have scrap wheels.

daviddavieboy

I goofed like this on a set before. It was fine on the front but on the rear when standing on a hill I got the occasional spoke rub on the deraileur. The front is still true after 2000+. FWIW I used straight gauge spokes on high flange hubs with Ambrosio Olympic tubular rims.

Bianchigirll 

If you rebuld then or build new wheels go for 'Crow's Foot' lacing. Very unique

JohnDThompson 

Lots of low-end Raleighs came with wheels built this way. I agree it was likely a labor/cost saving design. While the OP's wheel is probably just fine to ride, I was surprised that non-laced spokes would be used on what appears to be a fairly high-end wheel (Campagnolo Record skewer, sealed bearing hub).

BikeMaster119

It looks good, everything is well cleaned, there is a lot of work to do in such an intervention, we can also use different chemicals to do this cleaning and we can also use various brushes.

Bianchi84

This is from The Schwinn Bicycle Service Manual years 1969-1972. Volume 2 page 628. I'm looking especially at the second "NOTE".
(That picture doesn't really seem to match that "NOTE".)