RNAV

I've been considering selling my Emonda frame and replacing it with a LeMond Washoe. I've got a LeMond Croix de fer that I really enjoy, but would like a more modern steel bike. Does anyone know of any Washoes on the market? The usual FB Marketplace/Craigslist/eBay searches have turned up nothing.

RiceAWay

I have an older LeMond Zurich built of Reynolds 853 oversize steel tubing. I would estimate the weight difference between that and a Washoe at 1 lb. From experience I can tell you that the Zurich is the best bike I've ever ridden. It handles perfectly under all conditions wet or dry. I have no fears of a catastrophic failure for which carbon bikes are no longer "prone" but does occasionally occur through the fact that most carbon bikes are made in China and quality control isn't the first priority. (But remember that some of the best carbon bikes in the world are built there.) I keep seeing people saying that Trek frames are made in Madison, but I also saw 3 Treks and a Gary Fisher crack near the bottom bracket. This wasn't a catastrophic failure by any stretch of the imagination but it did require the time to get and replace the frame with their lifetime warranty. Though thoughts of Madone SL's do flit through my head......

TheDudeIsHere

I had a Lemond Chambery for 3 years. Loved the fit, the ride, the geo, the responsiveness, the comfort.

I have a Cannondale, Trek, Bianchi, Specialized, but the Lemond was the best ride evah!

I really miss that bike (frame crack). Was replaced with a full carbon Madone, not even close to the sweet ride of the Lemond.

Next time I get a new bike, I will look for a Lemond or one with similar geo.

RNAV

I'm not anticipating significant improvements (weight/ride/performance) over my Croix de fer. I like my Emonda quite a lot; no concerns over the quality of the frame. I just like my Croix de fer so much that I thought it'd be nice to get a newer LeMond (and I could transfer the Red22 group from the Emonda over to it). I wanted to get a Washoe when they were available, but I was unfortunately out of funds at the time. Missed the boat for sure!

bruce19

Tracking down a Washoe may be difficult. They were made by Zen and Zen went out of business several years ago.

jamesdak 

Contact the company directly. Last year they still had a bunch of frames in the factory. Quoted me $2300 for one. I was dealing with a guy named Ben.

bruce19

What company? I thought Zen was out of business. No?

https://bikeportland.org/2016/02/25/...s-doors-176080

jamesdak 

Oops, sorry should have mentioned who. I meant Lemond. I was talking with Ben McCarthy. His email is ben@lemond.cc.

Here's the text of the email from last Jan:

"Greetings Jim, hope you're well and thanks for reaching out! You're in luck - We still have about 60 of the Washoe frames available, in all sizes.

Just as an FYI - We can get you set up with just a frame + fork, or if you were interested in a full build, we're currently able to spec with Shimano components. Lead time from point of order to shipment is usually about 4-5 weeks, as the frames are hand painted and he does have to factor in any frame orders from us into his daily workload. I would keep you updated along the way, but just letting you know ahead of time. A complete build might see additional time because I would need to order in all of the components.

Lastly, we offer the frame in 3 color palettes:
-Black w/ Lt. Blue lettering
-Orange w/ Lt. Blue lettering
-Lt. Blue w/ Orange lettering
-Custom colors are available with request. I would have to check with the painter to see what additional charges might be for custom paint & decals.

I've attached the geometry chart below and a few photos for your review. Please let me know if you have any questions about fitment, or otherwise. I meant to also include some photos of the painted bike, but my work computer unfortunately fried last week so I'm without them at the moment... you might look on our Facebook or Instagram in the meantime.

Kind regards,



BEN MCCARTHY
Product Research and Development

LeMond Bicycles

103 Palladium Way

Oak Ridge, Tennessee, 37830

United States of America

844.622.5750 | 612.486.5750

"
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
And then this was a price quote from a later email:

"We've got four 55cm frames remaining, and the price is $2349+shipping. Includes a paint-matched ENVE Road carbon fork, Chris King inset7 headset, and Thomson seatpost collar."

bruce19

I didn't realize that LeMond still had a company. If I hadn't bought this steel Guru a few years back I would have been jonesin for a Washoe.

Bah Humbug

Now that has me wondering if they have a Zurich sitting around, and if so if I would actually buy it...

RNAV

I contacted them prior to posting this thread. Unfortunately, the only sizes they've left are 49s and 61s . . . neither will work for me.

RNAV

Nice bike! How do you like it? I'm beginning to realize that a Washoe simply may not happen due to availability, so I'm looking at other alternatives that have similar geometry and tube selection.

bruce19

The Guru is my favorite bike of all the bikes I've owned in 40 yrs of cycling. It's what is called a "square 55" meaning the frame and TT are 55 cm. I bought it from a friend for $1200. It had been ridden about 6 times but it was too big for her. It also came with SRAM Rival and Mavic Ksyrium Eliite clinchers. Over the past 3 yrs I have upgraded to SRAM Red and Mavic USTs. The last time I weighed it I think it came in at 17 lb 10 oz. Not bad for steel. BTW, it's Columbus Spirit tubing. FWIW, this June my GF bought me a CAAD 12 for my 73rd birthday. It came with Shimano 105 and I also put Mavic USTs on it. It's also fairly light at around 17 lb 8 oz. It may be the equal of my Guru for pure fun and comfort. I would not overlook an AL bike. They can be awesome. Both bikes are quick and responsive. Back to the Guru....unfortunately, Guru is also out of business. I believe they were made in Montreal. Here's a pic of that CAAD 12.

bruce19

I should have mentioned that I have seen some Guru Sideros (steel...my bike) for sale on EBAY. As I recall a couple were new but I can't remember the sizes.

mstateglfr 

So $2400 for an overstock frame package from 6 years ago that cost $1800 when originally introduced.
https://bikerumor.com/2014/08/14/lem...hoe-road-bike/

The Washoe is light, thats pretty cool as its a rare day when production steel is that light. Everyone ends up overbuilding it to ensure morons can drop off rooftops and not blame the bike for injury.
It also isnt exactly cheap. There are quality stock steel frames that weigh 150-300g more, but cost $800-1200 less. Thats significant.
And there are quality custom frames that weigh the same and give you the geometry and/or brazeons you want, that are in this price range.

But there is a draw to certain brands/ideals/representations. I get it.

RiceAWay

All over this country there are custom bike builders. The prices are surprisingly reasonable and practically any large population area has one. Where are you located?

RNAV

Yeah, that price seems a bit excessive. What stock frames were you thinking of?

RNAV

I'm in the St Louis metro area.

shelbyfv

Gunnar still makes a variety of very nice production steel frames. You can pick your color. Custom Bicycle Frames from Gunnar Cycles USA

bruce19

A friend of mine has one and loves it.

Bah Humbug

I have an on-and-off hankering for a Ritchey Road Logic, now available in disc as well as rim.

https://us.ritcheylogic.com/us_en/road-bike/frames

mstateglfr 

Here is a very abbreviated list of builders I know of/have interacted with. This is incomplete, but hopefully gives you an idea of what is out there that is comparable in quality and costs less, the same as, or more than the Washoe. I only included 1 'production' frame(Fairlight), but there are more of these for cost savings(Ritchey Logic for example). And that is also the only brand outside the US. There are a good number of brands in Italy and England that would come in at/under the Washoe price.
Ultimately, geometry is really what is going to make a bike feel great or feel 'meh'. Luckily there are hundreds of brands with varying geometry so if you can sort thru the data there will be many options for you.

Gunnar was mentioned and its a really well established brand. I doubt itll be as light as the Washoe, but it will be just as well designed and built. Even if it isnt as light, itll be 200g more, maybe if that. Richard Schwinn wouldnt quote weights for a frame for me and Ive read he wouldnt do that for others too. I understand the risk- people get so focused on grams that if they deliver a frame thats 60g more and the customer is upset, its a no win for Gunnar. They have stock and custom geo for $200 more or something insignificant like that.

Custom Bikes ? LaBerta & Sons Cycles is in STL and builds with lugs as well as TIG. Pricing isnt listed, but Ive read frames start at under $2000. Based on what tubing he uses, if he thinks you can/should ride something thin and light- a frame could be in the range of Washoe(1705g for a large size).

https://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/out...tlaw-main.html Rodriguez in Seattle is well respected and has fair pricing. $2350 for the Outlaw frame and Enve carbon fork. https://www.rodbikes.com/frames.html

https://breadwinnercycles.com/product/lolo/#frame Breadwinner is $2850 so higher than the Washoe but the Lolo is crazy nice looking.

https://fairlightcycles.com/product/...v=7516fd43adaa The Strael 2.0 is a TA disc brake, but its a small company that handbuilds in Europe, uses quality tubing matched to great design thoguht, and is $1560USD. It comes in seemingly limitless sizes to give you whatever setup you want.
https://fairlightcycles.com/strael/?v=7516fd43adaa This is the original Strael that is disc brake with QR for $1170USD.

https://www.curtgoodrich.com/home

https://www.andersoncustombicycles.com/ $2800-2875 depending on lugged or fillet brazed so higher than the Washoe. carbon fork can be swapped instead of the steel fork for no charge.

HOME you could have the custom geometry, a steel fork,and buy a brand name carbon fork which would still be cheaper than the Washoe.

https://coconinocycles.blogspot.com/ His frames were $2300 with custom paint a few years ago and under 2k for 1 color.

https://stoemper.com/product/taylor/ $2400, made in MPLS, choose disc or caliper. tweaks to standard geometry can be made.



Here is an outdated and incomplete list of US builders. Some websites are dead links because the builder is out of biz and some are dead links because the page has simply changed. And this isnt everyone. https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=113817

Badbird2000

I had a Zurich myself back in the mid 2000's. I sold it about 10 years ago and have regretted it ever since. That was the best riding bike I ever owned. I would love to find another one.

RNAV

Thank you for posting this! I'll have to look into these.

RiceAWay

You should be able to go to your nearest bike shop and ask about local framebuilders.