Notices
Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

More doping talk

Old 02-04-20, 06:28 PM
  #1  
Rajflyboy
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Rajflyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 1,293

Bikes: Orbea

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 917 Post(s)
Liked 202 Times in 168 Posts
More doping talk

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...-lawyer-448411

this stuff just Keeps in the news
Rajflyboy is offline  
Old 02-05-20, 08:04 AM
  #2  
Riv-Lantis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Decatur, Georgia
Posts: 114

Bikes: Surly Cross-Check SS, Surly Straggler, Surly Steamroller fixed, Moots Vamoots Disc RSL

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
I'd say that 90% number is probably about right. Maybe a bit on the low side if just considering World Tour level teams. I'd venture that every one of those teams has a program.
I've gotten to where I simply don't care about the doping drama anymore. I like racing and I'll keep watching.
These doping stories sell because people generally love drama. And the more drama that can be wrapped up around the periphery of racing, the more it keep people hooked into talking about it constantly.
Riv-Lantis is offline  
Old 02-05-20, 10:09 AM
  #3  
Rajflyboy
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Rajflyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 1,293

Bikes: Orbea

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 917 Post(s)
Liked 202 Times in 168 Posts
Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis View Post
I'd say that 90% number is probably about right. Maybe a bit on the low side if just considering World Tour level teams. I'd venture that every one of those teams has a program.
I've gotten to where I simply don't care about the doping drama anymore. I like racing and I'll keep watching.
These doping stories sell because people generally love drama. And the more drama that can be wrapped up around the periphery of racing, the more it keep people hooked into talking about it constantly.
Well

but the young kid who wants to stay "Clean" is virtually screwed and will never make it in the pro peleton staying clean.
Rajflyboy is offline  
Likes For Rajflyboy:
Old 02-05-20, 04:29 PM
  #4  
Riv-Lantis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Decatur, Georgia
Posts: 114

Bikes: Surly Cross-Check SS, Surly Straggler, Surly Steamroller fixed, Moots Vamoots Disc RSL

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
That reminds me of Dave Zabriskie riding a fixed gear up a mountain with Floyd Landis for the State Bicycle video. He pretty much says you work so hard to get to that level and then find out it's not what you though it was, referring to the doping you have to do to stay with a team at the top tier.
I really hate to say this, but at this point if you're a kid coming up through the ranks you have to know the score when you're looking to make the jump up to a World Tour team. There's no way you can be that naive after spending enough time in racing.
Riv-Lantis is offline  
Likes For Riv-Lantis:
Old 02-05-20, 04:40 PM
  #5  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 24,572
Mentioned: 195 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11521 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times in 730 Posts
So, find the 9 out of 10 individuals willing to go on record admitting to doping.

If the problem is that bad, then the monitoring and passports are ineffective.

I have to wonder, however, if there is a bias. So if a person gets themselves in a bad crowd, then the expectation is that everyone is doing it when in fact it may only be a handful.
CliffordK is online now  
Likes For CliffordK:
Old 02-05-20, 04:48 PM
  #6  
ridelikeaturtle
Senior Member
 
ridelikeaturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 941

Bikes: Bianchi Ti Megatube, M Alloy Pro, Sprint 76; Amp Research B4; Colnago Crystal; Klein Pulse; Litespeed Catalyst, Fondriest Squadra Corse

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 447 Post(s)
Liked 209 Times in 123 Posts
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
So, find the 9 out of 10 individuals willing to go on record admitting to doping.

If the problem is that bad, then the monitoring and passports are ineffective.

I have to wonder, however, if there is a bias. So if a person gets themselves in a bad crowd, then the expectation is that everyone is doing it when in fact it may only be a handful.
It's a rationalization, a coping mechanism, to throw it out there that "everyone's cheating", to justify the fact that /you're cheating/. They know it's wrong; it's /less wrong/ if everyone is cheating too.
ridelikeaturtle is offline  
Likes For ridelikeaturtle:
Old 02-05-20, 08:17 PM
  #7  
Rajflyboy
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Rajflyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 1,293

Bikes: Orbea

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 917 Post(s)
Liked 202 Times in 168 Posts
Originally Posted by ridelikeaturtle View Post
It's a rationalization, a coping mechanism, to throw it out there that "everyone's cheating", to justify the fact that /you're cheating/. They know it's wrong; it's /less wrong/ if everyone is cheating too.
At some point you have to make enough money to put a roof over your head and pay normal bills and responsibilities. If this is how you put bread on the table you may do things you donít really want to do so that you can pay your bills.
Rajflyboy is offline  
Old 02-06-20, 01:48 AM
  #8  
Miele Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,091

Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1100 Post(s)
Liked 643 Times in 450 Posts
I figure that if the leaders in a grand tour are doping and if others are keeping up with them that it only stands to reason that those others must be doping too.

It's not about the bike; it's about the dope and whether or not you get caught doping.

Cheers
Miele Man is offline  
Old 02-06-20, 06:05 AM
  #9  
Rajflyboy
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Rajflyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 1,293

Bikes: Orbea

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 917 Post(s)
Liked 202 Times in 168 Posts
Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
I figure that if the leaders in a grand tour are doping and if others are keeping up with them that it only stands to reason that those others must be doping too.

It's not about the bike; it's about the dope and whether or not you get caught doping.

Cheers
or whether ruling body wants to catch anyone.
Rajflyboy is offline  
Old 02-06-20, 09:24 AM
  #10  
Riv-Lantis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Decatur, Georgia
Posts: 114

Bikes: Surly Cross-Check SS, Surly Straggler, Surly Steamroller fixed, Moots Vamoots Disc RSL

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
or whether ruling body wants to catch anyone.
I think that's plays a large part as well.
There'll be a sacrificial lamb every now and again to show how they're cleaning the sport up, but there will normally be a nod and a wink toward the biggest names that bring in the biggest sponsors and crowds.

Your whole idea of putting bread on the table is also pretty spot-on. Like Zabriskie was saying in that video, you work your whole life to get to the top and then find out it wasn't what you were led to believe it was. You're then faced with the decision to get on board with the team's doping program and stay in the only life you've ever known while earning a decent living, or you're looking at getting a job like a regular slob while probably having zero formal education past maybe high school because you've been glued to a bicycle saddle for the past 10 years.

I also find it laughable that you see articles and stories on the cycling sites that speak of this incredible new talent that's coming in a winning races at crazy young ages and the speeds are faster than ever. Then acting like it's the human genome that's evolving to make these kids faster at younger ages.
Riv-Lantis is offline  
Old 02-09-20, 11:15 PM
  #11  
ThermionicScott 
7-speed cultist
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 20,010

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2769 Post(s)
Liked 680 Times in 474 Posts
Wherever there is competition, there will be the temptation to cheat. It's naive to think it will ever be otherwise.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-free-cheating
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 02-10-20, 05:53 AM
  #12  
Rajflyboy
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Rajflyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 1,293

Bikes: Orbea

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 917 Post(s)
Liked 202 Times in 168 Posts
If you ain’t cheatin you ain’t tryin
Rajflyboy is offline  
Likes For Rajflyboy:
Old 02-12-20, 02:46 PM
  #13  
OBoile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,583
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 919 Post(s)
Liked 224 Times in 132 Posts
I don't think it's 90%... at least not anymore. My guess would be something like 50%. But, that pretty much includes all the top riders by definition.
OBoile is offline  
Old 02-12-20, 03:30 PM
  #14  
BengalCat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Brentwood WLA
Posts: 321

Bikes: 50/34, 11-40, 11 Speed

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked 68 Times in 49 Posts
In most elite world-class highly physical sports doping has and is common. In cycling is has been so since the early nineties. In other sports such as track and field decade(s) earlier. People should accept it as it is never going to change and learn to get over it.
BengalCat is offline  
Old 02-12-20, 08:26 PM
  #15  
Rajflyboy
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Rajflyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 1,293

Bikes: Orbea

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 917 Post(s)
Liked 202 Times in 168 Posts
Now this behavior of doping... does it cause major health problems later in life ? Or not ?
Rajflyboy is offline  
Old 02-13-20, 09:31 AM
  #16  
Riv-Lantis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Decatur, Georgia
Posts: 114

Bikes: Surly Cross-Check SS, Surly Straggler, Surly Steamroller fixed, Moots Vamoots Disc RSL

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
Now this behavior of doping... does it cause major health problems later in life ? Or not ?
Totally depends on the methods used.
Banking some of your own red cells to re-inject before a major race? No issue at all, really. After a few days, your body is back to homeostasis.
Pharmaceuticals? Some can have major consequences. Any anabolic affects all muscles, not just the ones you want stronger. So.....possible heart issues, etc. with some of the highly anabolic steroids.
Not to mention the possible future endocrine system issues that you can see from manipulating hormone levels. Simply bumping test or other hormones up to high-normal levels is *probably* OK. But there are no real studies done on the long term effects of doing this in otherwise healthy people. No matter what, I would think that over time your body will stop making whatever hormone you're injecting at it's normal rate since it sees a high level of that in your system. That leads to maybe being reliant on the replacement hormone for life if your natural production doesn't bounce back after coming off the booster.
Riv-Lantis is offline  
Likes For Riv-Lantis:
Old 02-13-20, 12:00 PM
  #17  
Rajflyboy
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Rajflyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 1,293

Bikes: Orbea

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 917 Post(s)
Liked 202 Times in 168 Posts
Thanks Riv
Rajflyboy is offline  
Old 02-13-20, 12:18 PM
  #18  
Shimagnolo
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 8,875
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2001 Post(s)
Liked 772 Times in 463 Posts
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Wherever there is competition, there will be the temptation to cheat. It's naive to think it will ever be otherwise.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-free-cheating
This past week in Austria five skiers were arrested at the Nordic skiing world championships: two each from the host nation and Estonia, one from Kazakhstan. One Austrian, Max Hauke, who awkwardly happens to be a police cadet, was caught in the raid mid-transfusion, a needle in his arm.

How embarrassing!
Shimagnolo is offline  
Likes For Shimagnolo:
Old 02-15-20, 10:34 AM
  #19  
Miele Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,091

Bikes: iele Latina, Miele Suprema, Miele Uno LS, Miele Miele Beta, MMTB, Bianchi Model Unknown, Fiori Venezia, Fiori Napoli, VeloSport Adamas AX

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1100 Post(s)
Liked 643 Times in 450 Posts
In any professional sport, it's not about how you play the game; it's about whether you win or lose.

Cheers
Miele Man is offline  
Old 02-16-20, 06:39 AM
  #20  
nomadmax 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 1,450
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 660 Post(s)
Liked 696 Times in 370 Posts
There will always be doping in cycle racing as long as there's money in the "testing and detection" of it. The riders dope to win and the governing bodies hope they do so there will be a "need" for their billion dollar industry. The only group that wants a "clean" race is the fans because they want something to believe in. As far as I'm concerned, the genie is out of the bottle with no way to get it back in. Dope all you want, I don't care if it means terrible health problems or early mortality for the participants; just go fast. I mean if we're gonna take "the high road" about participant safety, start burning candles for light instead of hitting the switch. Coal miners have environmental health issues at a greater rate than the general populous so why stop at worrying about sports figures who are forced to deal with their "environmental issues"?

There are many things in our daily lives that come at terrible cost to those who produce or bring them to us, cycle racing is now one of those things. Pining or looking for a "clean champion" in this day and age is like setting out cookies and milk for Santa Claus on Christmas Eve.

Last edited by nomadmax; 02-16-20 at 06:45 AM.
nomadmax is offline  
Old 02-16-20, 01:36 PM
  #21  
Wildwood
Veteran/Pacifist/Resister
 
Wildwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 9,941

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Mentioned: 218 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2327 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 491 Posts
There is a very fine line between some forms of doping and legal nutrition supplementation. Just eating food, does not translate to a winning solution for endurance sports.

I read an article about Peptide (i think) use by Jumbo Visma. Totally legal but not used by some teams and used by others such as Ineos and QuickStep.
Wildwood is offline  
Old 02-16-20, 03:22 PM
  #22  
Wildwood
Veteran/Pacifist/Resister
 
Wildwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 9,941

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Mentioned: 218 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2327 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 491 Posts
Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
In any professional sport, it's not about how you play the game; it's about whether you win or lose.

Cheers

If 'professional sports' would sanction players AND teams that violate the rules - by stripping team titles and individuals of eligibility there would be more credibility.

Baseball's Houston Astros = illegitimate champions, should be banned from postseason for X yrs.
New England Patriots = illegitimate champions, as well.

At least in Pro Cycling, the governing bodies have been active. Hopefully, The Olympics will continue to test and ban as appropriate.

In USA = pro baseball, pro football, pro wrestling, pro roller derby are Athletic Entertainment, not Sport.
Guess I don't follow NBA or NHL enough to comment on those leagues.

Putting Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens in a Hall of Fame is shameful deceit. Like calling Lance the greatest cyclist. Just sporting fraud. Give them an Oscar or an Emmy for their entertainment performances, but not a Hall of Fame.

Last edited by Wildwood; 02-16-20 at 03:39 PM.
Wildwood is offline  
Likes For Wildwood:
Old 02-16-20, 03:37 PM
  #23  
Rajflyboy
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Rajflyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 1,293

Bikes: Orbea

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 917 Post(s)
Liked 202 Times in 168 Posts
So,...

did baseball players in the 1930’s cheat? Why are they in the baseball hall of fame?
Rajflyboy is offline  
Old 02-17-20, 10:15 AM
  #24  
Riv-Lantis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Decatur, Georgia
Posts: 114

Bikes: Surly Cross-Check SS, Surly Straggler, Surly Steamroller fixed, Moots Vamoots Disc RSL

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
There is a very fine line between some forms of doping and legal nutrition supplementation. Just eating food, does not translate to a winning solution for endurance sports.

I read an article about Peptide (i think) use by Jumbo Visma. Totally legal but not used by some teams and used by others such as Ineos and QuickStep.
Those are Ketone supplements used by J-V team. They supposedly spare glycogen by getting the body to convert fat into a more immediately usable form of energy for higher % efforts than fat would normally be good for.
It basically mimics the ketosis state that a no carb diet places the body into, without the need to cut carbs from the diet. As far as I know, there's limited evidence this actually works.
Riv-Lantis is offline  
Old 02-17-20, 02:52 PM
  #25  
Wildwood
Veteran/Pacifist/Resister
 
Wildwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 9,941

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Mentioned: 218 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2327 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 491 Posts
Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis View Post
Those are Ketone supplements used by J-V team. and other teams
It basically mimics the ketosis state that a no carb diet places the body into, without the need to cut carbs from the diet. As far as I know, there's limited evidence this actually works.
Isn't the term 'marginal gains' the appropriate description.
Not officially doping.
The list of banned substances grows.
And so do the theories and inventions of 'performance doctors'.

Glad cycling is being as aggressive as reasonably possible (and sometimes unreasonable) to pursue those who violate rules. Doping and otherwise

Last edited by Wildwood; 02-17-20 at 03:09 PM.
Wildwood is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.