Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes and no one cares
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I have said this in a few places, including to engineers at SRAM and no one seems to be interested but road calipers need to be a dual acting system. Low pressure, fast/longer stoke in until contact, then switch to high pressure circuit for braking. Yes, I worked at a hydraulics company for years and spent more than my fair share of time making and designing hydraulic circuits but I totally forget how to achieve this but I believe it was just different reservoir/passage sizes and check/or weighted valves. This would allows road disc pads to retract and GTFO out of the way when not being used. It would stop pad rub as well.
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...
I have said this in a few places, including to engineers at SRAM and no one seems to be interested but road calipers need to be a dual acting system. Low pressure, fast/longer stoke in until contact, then switch to high pressure circuit for braking. Yes, I worked at a hydraulics company for years and spent more than my fair share of time making and designing hydraulic circuits but I totally forget how to achieve this but I believe it was just different reservoir/passage sizes and check/or weighted valves. This would allows road disc pads to retract and GTFO out of the way when not being used. It would stop pad rub as well.
I have said this in a few places, including to engineers at SRAM and no one seems to be interested but road calipers need to be a dual acting system. Low pressure, fast/longer stoke in until contact, then switch to high pressure circuit for braking. Yes, I worked at a hydraulics company for years and spent more than my fair share of time making and designing hydraulic circuits but I totally forget how to achieve this but I believe it was just different reservoir/passage sizes and check/or weighted valves. This would allows road disc pads to retract and GTFO out of the way when not being used. It would stop pad rub as well.
I recall seeing that circuitry in engineering fluids. Not my specialty at all but pretty interesting that it could be done. Now I saw that in 1974. So it may be rocket science (we learned that also) but hardly anything new.
Ben
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Our "local" climbs (local takes on a different meaning when your state is 400 miles across) are Washington Pass with 3,500 feet over 17 miles and dramatically beautiful scenery, and Hurricane Ridge with 5,200 feet over 17 miles and dramatically beautiful scenery. If you can fit 28s, there are a lot of dirt roads with great climbs and descents too. Harts Pass is a mile above the valley floor, takes 12 miles to rise up, and the climate is different at the top and bottom.
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#181
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Disc brakes have been on market 50 years. Someone else mentioned 15. Five-zero. Half of a century. Lots and lots and lots of work has gone into making them saleable. One thing everyone was always sure of was if you could get them to work they would be easy to sell. Well, now they work.
In meantime rim brakes have had no development whatsoever. None. Nada. Zip. Best brake design out there - and still in production from multiple shops - is 70 years old. For that neglect they deserve to lose out. Most wheel builds are still mediocre and rim brakes don't work if the wheel isn't straight. Calipers are mostly badly set up. Cable runs are mostly badly set up. As Psimet keeps telling us riders don't come in to have their rim brakes worked on. If it halfway works they leave it alone. Half good is acceptable. Most have never experienced rim brakes that work as well as they can work. So yeah, perfect discs are better than mediocre rim brakes.
After deciding the disc on the new bike solves all problems no one is going to pay any attention to what really matters. Traction has always been the limit on ability to stop a bike. Rim or disc affects brake feel, it doesn't affect traction at all. Riders don't know and don't care what they can do themselves to create opportunity for traction. While dizzy with the success of discs no one bothers to learn how to ride. A rider with a clue is always going to stop faster and safer than a clueless rider, regardless of equipment.
In meantime rim brakes have had no development whatsoever. None. Nada. Zip. Best brake design out there - and still in production from multiple shops - is 70 years old. For that neglect they deserve to lose out. Most wheel builds are still mediocre and rim brakes don't work if the wheel isn't straight. Calipers are mostly badly set up. Cable runs are mostly badly set up. As Psimet keeps telling us riders don't come in to have their rim brakes worked on. If it halfway works they leave it alone. Half good is acceptable. Most have never experienced rim brakes that work as well as they can work. So yeah, perfect discs are better than mediocre rim brakes.
After deciding the disc on the new bike solves all problems no one is going to pay any attention to what really matters. Traction has always been the limit on ability to stop a bike. Rim or disc affects brake feel, it doesn't affect traction at all. Riders don't know and don't care what they can do themselves to create opportunity for traction. While dizzy with the success of discs no one bothers to learn how to ride. A rider with a clue is always going to stop faster and safer than a clueless rider, regardless of equipment.
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Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes and no one cares
Pure climbers are winning on disc brake bikes and no one cares, so has the argument been settled?
Last weekend, Nairo Quintana blazed up the notorious 10km climb to Chalet Reynard on Mont Ventoux, to win stage three of the Tour de la Provence and take the overall race lead.
After the stage, chatter across the cycling media was focused almost entirely on the return to form of a rider whose star has waned slightly in recent years. What didnt warrant a mention, however, was that Quintana rode a bike equipped with disc brakes.
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Pure climbers are winning on disc brake bikes and no one cares, so has the argument been settled?
Last weekend, Nairo Quintana blazed up the notorious 10km climb to Chalet Reynard on Mont Ventoux, to win stage three of the Tour de la Provence and take the overall race lead.
After the stage, chatter across the cycling media was focused almost entirely on the return to form of a rider whose star has waned slightly in recent years. What didnt warrant a mention, however, was that Quintana rode a bike equipped with disc brakes.
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a) does all their own bike maintenance and has more than one bike
b) owns a lot of wheelsets and uses them interchangeably on their n+1 bikes
c) likes to spend more time riding than running their bike back and forth to the bike shop
d) cares about weight and aero-dynmaics
e) doesnt want to faff about getting adapters for all sorts of stuff original designed for rim brake bikes (racks, trainers, work stands, etc.)
f) travels frequently with their bike
g) realizes that for the conditions in which 95+% of riders ride, rim brakes work perfectly fine and have for decades.
h) has ever wanted to adjust lever travel before the pads engage or needs to adjust pad clearance on the road
Have I missed anything guys?
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In meantime rim brakes have had no development whatsoever. None. Nada. Zip. Best brake design out there - and still in production from multiple shops - is 70 years old. For that neglect they deserve to lose out. Most wheel builds are still mediocre and rim brakes don't work if the wheel isn't straight. Calipers are mostly badly set up. Cable runs are mostly badly set up. As Psimet keeps telling us riders don't come in to have their rim brakes worked on. If it halfway works they leave it alone. Half good is acceptable. Most have never experienced rim brakes that work as well as they can work. So yeah, perfect discs are better than mediocre rim brakes.
After deciding the disc on the new bike solves all problems no one is going to pay any attention to what really matters. Traction has always been the limit on ability to stop a bike. Rim or disc affects brake feel, it doesn't affect traction at all. Riders don't know and don't care what they can do themselves to create opportunity for traction. While dizzy with the success of discs no one bothers to learn how to ride. A rider with a clue is always going to stop faster and safer than a clueless rider, regardless of equipment.
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Agree whole-heartedly with the last point. That said, rim brakes HAVE evolved and improved. Today’s rim bakes are 1000% better than those of 20-30 years ago and even noticeably better than in the 2000’s. There are also direct-mount rim brakes which are a notable improvement. I’d submit that precisely BECAUSE mediocre rim brakes work just fine is why THEY should prevail. Improperly bled hydraulic discs, ones that get a bubble in the line (come on, how many of us have more than one bike hung upside down in the garage! ), ones where you’ve touched the lever with the wheel out (horrors!), ones that you didn’t cover with a plastic bag when you cleaned or lubed your bike, or one with even a slightly tweaked rotor, etc. etc. DON’T.
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#187
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Disc brakes are now the default on road bikes and no one cares
Pure climbers are winning on disc brake bikes and no one cares, so has the argument been settled?
Last weekend, Nairo Quintana blazed up the notorious 10km climb to Chalet Reynard on Mont Ventoux, to win stage three of the Tour de la Provence and take the overall race lead.
After the stage, chatter across the cycling media was focused almost entirely on the return to form of a rider whose star has waned slightly in recent years. What didnt warrant a mention, however, was that Quintana rode a bike equipped with disc brakes.
Bike Radar
Pure climbers are winning on disc brake bikes and no one cares, so has the argument been settled?
Last weekend, Nairo Quintana blazed up the notorious 10km climb to Chalet Reynard on Mont Ventoux, to win stage three of the Tour de la Provence and take the overall race lead.
After the stage, chatter across the cycling media was focused almost entirely on the return to form of a rider whose star has waned slightly in recent years. What didnt warrant a mention, however, was that Quintana rode a bike equipped with disc brakes.
Bike Radar
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For the locals: What's the story behind the section of "cobbles" at one of the tourist turnouts? Mini speed bumps?
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That said I have had to call on the tools more than once. The amount of money that you can charge for a CK service makes them worth buying them if you are a shop and a dealer. If you are a rider who does your own maintenance then .... I can see buying them just because you want them but it's a bit like buying a paint booth for your house so you can re-paint 1 door panel for a car you won't have for much longer.
You can indeed get away with not having all of the tools if you want to do some basic maintenance but that's also like saying you can change spark plugs with an adjustable wrench and a hammer.
In meantime rim brakes have had no development whatsoever. None. Nada. Zip. Best brake design out there - and still in production from multiple shops - is 70 years old. For that neglect they deserve to lose out. Most wheel builds are still mediocre and rim brakes don't work if the wheel isn't straight. Calipers are mostly badly set up. Cable runs are mostly badly set up. As Psimet keeps telling us riders don't come in to have their rim brakes worked on. If it halfway works they leave it alone. Half good is acceptable. Most have never experienced rim brakes that work as well as they can work. So yeah, perfect discs are better than mediocre rim brakes.
No argument on that.
#193
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Docs brakes
Hydraulic disc brakes/ what can go wrong will go wrong. Also, the concept destroy the "elegant symplicity" of the bicycle made up of simple frame, balanced spoke forces supporting over a hundred pounds on 2 inches of easily collapseble rim, propelled by human effort and stopped by "elegant sympicity" of pulling on the brake cable and squeezing easily replaced super low cost rubber brake pads (available everywhere in drugstores ) on the wheel rim.
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I like the elegant simplicity of using a servomotor to shift gears.
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Hydraulic disc brakes/ what can go wrong will go wrong. Also, the concept destroy the "elegant symplicity" of the bicycle made up of simple frame, balanced spoke forces supporting over a hundred pounds on 2 inches of easily collapseble rim, propelled by human effort and stopped by "elegant sympicity" of pulling on the brake cable and squeezing easily replaced super low cost rubber brake pads (available everywhere in drugstores ) on the wheel rim.
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I look at this from an engineering perspective -
to slow the bike, you exert a force on the pavement, opposite the direction of motion. With a rim brake, that force is being transferred directly from the rim, to the tire to the pavement, and the force being applied by the rim brake to the rim is almost the same as the braking force.
With a disk brake, the force is applied to the disk, and transferred down to the hub, then up to the rim via the spokes, and finally to the tire to the pavement. Because of the lever force since the disc is smaller diameter than the rim, you have to apply about 3.5x as much force to the rim as what gets applied to the pavement. All this force is transferred laterally through the spokes, which means that you shouldn't lace a wheel for disc brakes radially, and it should have more spokes for an equivalent strength. If the UCI weight limit were not artificially high, this would make a difference on the bike weight, but it is easy to take weight from other places to add to wheels, resulting is a less safe bike.
I would put disc brakes on a commuting or touring bike, where weight is not so much of an issue, and I am going to build a bullet-proof wheel, but absent UCI weight wierdness, it makes more sense to have a light weight, radial laced wheel, with rim brakes, than a heavier wheel, laced for disc brakes.
to slow the bike, you exert a force on the pavement, opposite the direction of motion. With a rim brake, that force is being transferred directly from the rim, to the tire to the pavement, and the force being applied by the rim brake to the rim is almost the same as the braking force.
With a disk brake, the force is applied to the disk, and transferred down to the hub, then up to the rim via the spokes, and finally to the tire to the pavement. Because of the lever force since the disc is smaller diameter than the rim, you have to apply about 3.5x as much force to the rim as what gets applied to the pavement. All this force is transferred laterally through the spokes, which means that you shouldn't lace a wheel for disc brakes radially, and it should have more spokes for an equivalent strength. If the UCI weight limit were not artificially high, this would make a difference on the bike weight, but it is easy to take weight from other places to add to wheels, resulting is a less safe bike.
I would put disc brakes on a commuting or touring bike, where weight is not so much of an issue, and I am going to build a bullet-proof wheel, but absent UCI weight wierdness, it makes more sense to have a light weight, radial laced wheel, with rim brakes, than a heavier wheel, laced for disc brakes.
#198
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My $0.02
I have disc brakes on my new mountain bike and absolutely love them. The control and stopping power are beyond compare.
However, where I ride and how I ride, I don't see the benefit of discs on my road bike. I live is South Jersey; it's so flat we call the wind "South Jersey hills". It's not as flat as some areas of the Midwest, but there are no major climbs that require exceptional stopping power. I almost never ride in the rain, and I don't ride carbon rims. So I don't see what I would gain by switching to discs. I've never had an issue stopping my road bike with my rim brakes; if you do, you might need some training on the proper way to brake (I teach it in my bike safety class). Again, not saying there isn't benefit for some riders, just saying they don't justify the additional complexity and weight for others. If I'm missing something, let me know.
However, where I ride and how I ride, I don't see the benefit of discs on my road bike. I live is South Jersey; it's so flat we call the wind "South Jersey hills". It's not as flat as some areas of the Midwest, but there are no major climbs that require exceptional stopping power. I almost never ride in the rain, and I don't ride carbon rims. So I don't see what I would gain by switching to discs. I've never had an issue stopping my road bike with my rim brakes; if you do, you might need some training on the proper way to brake (I teach it in my bike safety class). Again, not saying there isn't benefit for some riders, just saying they don't justify the additional complexity and weight for others. If I'm missing something, let me know.
#199
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King themselves say that it is unnecessary to pull out the bearings in order to clean them. The only real exception is the roller bearings which that tool is available separately anyways. Isn't a matter of wrong tools, more like, I need to change the oil in my car, let's pull the oil pan to do it. I bought the tools through their EP program and found the price palatable as I knew the day would come when I'd move on from being a tech for a living. With 6 sets of hubs in the house between the wife and I and plans to pick up some used sets for the kids' race bikes I'm not worried about the cost.
Dual pivot are 70 years old and mediocre? Cause the first set of Shimano 600 were night and day better than any brake I'd ever experienced before their arrival and modern ultegra are a good argument for rim brakes being good enough for most people.
😂😂😂
No argument on that.
Dual pivot are 70 years old and mediocre? Cause the first set of Shimano 600 were night and day better than any brake I'd ever experienced before their arrival and modern ultegra are a good argument for rim brakes being good enough for most people.
😂😂😂
No argument on that.
#200
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