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How do you convince people you love to use daytime running lights?

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How do you convince people you love to use daytime running lights?

Old 07-03-20, 11:42 AM
  #1  
lyf
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How do you convince people you love to use daytime running lights?

Would love to hear tips and links to research. I've seen a few studies on daytime running lights reducing accidents in motorcycles, cars, and bicycles. It is interesting how they do the studies -- because the argument is always that having lights on may make someone drive more safely.

It's taken time but I have convinced a few cyclists to spend more money on ultra-bright front lights (daytime, 1000+ lumen flashing) and rear lights (300 lumen) and have them on at all hours of the day.

One argument that works is showing before and after photos of a cyclist in shadows (whether a building or tree shadow). There is a clear difference in visibility, and it's obvious you can't plan in advance at high speeds if you hit shadows and don't know what's behind you. It is too much cognitive load, so worth spending the extra money up front to feel safer should you happen to bike into shadows.

It can feel wimpy to have lights on all the time, so what have you found works for convincing people you love to get that added bump in safety? This can elicit strong emotions so that's why I'm trying to figure out softer ways to have this conversation and hopefully we might save some lives!
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Old 07-03-20, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by lyf View Post
..It's taken time but I have convinced a few cyclists to spend more money on ultra-bright front lights (daytime, 1000+ lumen flashing) and rear lights (300 lumen) and have them on at all hours of the day...
This reminds me of the old light bulb joke. How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the light bulb really has to want to change.

Having observed how people behave with respect to safety over 5 decades, I do have some observations.

1. Good examples will change some people's behavior. My wife runs DRL because I do.
2. An emotional engagement, not a rational one, is needed to change a deep-seated behavior. Usually, you need a "teachable moment" to get someone to change, and you can't program that.. it is on their schedule, not yours. Outside of a teachable moment, I find that a personal story related directly can have an emotional impact. For instance, if you crashed (or near-miss) because someone pulled out in front of you, relating that and your decision to run DRL can work. But you need some connection to the person and it isn't fast.
3. Teenagers? Fuggedaboutit. My daughter is programmed to not do what I tell her. Once, she asked what road rash was and sure enough, the next day she got a bad dose. I use that now as a reminder to her that the unexpected can happen, but I don't over-use it.. I save it for when she's taking a high risk. It works for me but I have to keep my powder dry.

I'm very interested in this. I'm always searching for ways to help people understand that their objective should be that no one gets hurt on their trip.
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Old 07-03-20, 12:39 PM
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Joe Bikerider
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How about not shining your ultra bright lights in my eyes? Yes, we maybe didnít crash but did you notice me turning my head away from your rude display? I guess you think thatís my problem. Sigh.
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Old 07-03-20, 01:14 PM
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I tend to agree with Joe Bikerider

I have been using my lights during daytime riding for the last four or five years. Not the super bright lights, but some small Bontrager Flares that I think are only 100 maybe 200 lumen at the most. However these other cyclist with the ultra bright lights are more annoying than safe IMO. At least not safe with any concern for others that can't see after getting flashed close up.

You only need something that will help others pick you out from the background. I don't need a light shined in my face and glares so much that I can't see the path in front of me when on a very shaded section and the bright flash of the oncoming light destroys the adaptation of my eyes to be able to see in the shady areas.

I'm not saying don't use lights during the day. I'm just against some of the lights that put out more than is necessary to be seen. If you only are on a open road in bright sun and no shade then a 1000 lumens might be fine. But on a MUP with dense foliage limiting the sun in some spots, being hit square on by a 1000 lumens isn't fun in close quarters.
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Old 07-03-20, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I tend to agree with Joe Bikerider
You only need something that will help others pick you out from the background. I don't need a light shined in my face and glares so much that I can't see the path in front of me when on a very shaded section and the bright flash of the oncoming light destroys the adaptation of my eyes to be able to see in the shady areas.

I'm not saying don't use lights during the day. I'm just against some of the lights that put out more than is necessary to be seen. If you only are on a open road in bright sun and no shade then a 1000 lumens might be fine. But on a MUP with dense foliage limiting the sun in some spots, being hit square on by a 1000 lumens isn't fun in close quarters.
plus one for this. ^^

also: STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -
- ok you get the point. If you want to convince me to run a head light on a bright sunny day....... STOP THE STROBING!
Otherwise I'm just gong to do the opposite of what you say. Whatever it is. You'll be able to get all my money by telling me not to give you my money. I really can't stand the strobing.
- Yes, a sore spot. I really can't stand it and don't understand it. So just stop it.
I dread the day I read the news that a strobing cyclist helped a motorist learn they have epilepsy because the strobing head light of a cyclist gave the motorist a seizure https://www.epilepsysociety.org.uk/p...y#.Xv-ciud7mUk

OK. Rant done. Thanks for bringing this up. Remember, you brought it up. I just went off the rails.
Cheers. Cioa. Have a nice day.
STOP THE STROBING
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Old 07-03-20, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mrv View Post
plus one for this. ^^

also: STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -
- ok you get the point. If you want to convince me to run a head light on a bright sunny day....... STOP THE STROBING!
Otherwise I'm just gong to do the opposite of what you say. Whatever it is. You'll be able to get all my money by telling me not to give you my money. I really can't stand the strobing.
- Yes, a sore spot. I really can't stand it and don't understand it. So just stop it.
I dread the day I read the news that a strobing cyclist helped a motorist learn they have epilepsy because the strobing head light of a cyclist gave the motorist a seizure https://www.epilepsysociety.org.uk/p...y#.Xv-ciud7mUk

OK. Rant done. Thanks for bringing this up. Remember, you brought it up. I just went off the rails.
Cheers. Cioa. Have a nice day.
STOP THE STROBING
Agreed. The German government bans flashing bike headlights. I use daytime running lights on my bike because it has a hub dyno, so why not. My car came with daytime running lights and I see no reason to reprogram it. In both cases, i think that the higher visibility has been demonstrated.
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Old 07-03-20, 05:58 PM
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Running lights, no matter how bright, or not bright, depend on the motorists seeing them, and they are sometimes distracted. That being said, I do like them for bright, sunny days, while riding on lightly travelled, dirt roads here in Vermont. Ironically, the deep shadows after the bright sunshine as one goes under trees makes an un illuminated bike difficult, at best to see. And, of course, it is exactly the type of road the motorist might expect to be empty. Still depending on someone else's vigilance, but at least you're giving them a fighting chance
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Old 07-03-20, 06:38 PM
  #8  
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Please don't use strobing lights.

Especially NOT on bike trails.
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Old 07-03-20, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I tend to agree with Joe Bikerider

I have been using my lights during daytime riding for the last four or five years. Not the super bright lights, but some small Bontrager Flares that I think are only 100 maybe 200 lumen at the most. However these other cyclist with the ultra bright lights are more annoying than safe IMO. At least not safe with any concern for others that can't see after getting flashed close up.
I ride in the very dangerous and chaotic streets of Manila Philippines. I already had a couple motorcyclists stopped on the side the of the street, suddenly starts moving and swerve into my path during daytime - they didn't see me.

Motorists also tend to drive really close to each other, in the tight roads of Manila, tailgating is very very common and I also drive a lot here in Manila. It is a bit harder to be behind someone with broken tail lights. Having your lights on front and back makes it easier for motorists to see you.

I only ride during the day, never at night. So I'll be using the lights for daytime riding only, especially when it's raining. The streets of Manila is littered with plenty of stuff that can flat your tires, a lot easier to see them a far and avoid them during the day.
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Old 07-03-20, 09:17 PM
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A big N-O to blinky headlights

Youíre on a bike, not running a discotheque. A steady front light with a lowish brightness for a DRL seems to work fine because I think itís main safety impact is at intersections where everyone is at close quarters and boosting your visibility without blinding or annoying folks is what youíre going for.

For rear lights I think as bright as possible either blinking or steady because you want to be seen from far away. If you have two lights, one on the sear stay and one on the seat post I think it helps cars judge the distance to you a bit better than a single light.

But, if youíre in a group ride please change your rear light from blinking to steady, youíre hypnotizing the guy behind you.
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Old 07-04-20, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by mrv View Post
plus one for this. ^^

also: STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -
STOP THE STROBING
Most lights are hard to adjust after setting out, and this is a problem.

How does the slow pulse that Light&Motion lights use work for you?
There is a slow pulse on the Cygolite tail lights, too, I'll have to use that more
I often ride a recumbent trike, and they need all they can get, I use a highviz hard hat cover on my helmet.
When out after dark , joggers on the MUP and streets without lights are almost invisible as are the 50% of bikers who ride without lights or reflectors.

Last edited by bikebikebike; 07-04-20 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 07-04-20, 09:45 AM
  #12  
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I always thought that strobe lights were illegal on bicycles?

Am I mistaken? Or is it a regional thing?

Cheers
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Old 07-04-20, 11:27 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels View Post
I ride in the very dangerous and chaotic streets of Manila Philippines. I already had a couple motorcyclists stopped on the side the of the street, suddenly starts moving and swerve into my path during daytime - they didn't see me.

Motorists also tend to drive really close to each other, in the tight roads of Manila, tailgating is very very common and I also drive a lot here in Manila. It is a bit harder to be behind someone with broken tail lights. Having your lights on front and back makes it easier for motorists to see you.

I only ride during the day, never at night. So I'll be using the lights for daytime riding only, especially when it's raining. The streets of Manila is littered with plenty of stuff that can flat your tires, a lot easier to see them a far and avoid them during the day.
Not certain why my comments were important to your comments. But I don't think anyone here has said don't use lights.

The only thing being tossed about in comments that are outside what the OP ask is whether or not very very bright lights are always a good idea in all situations.

Most lights have a control for both brightness, steady or flashing. And even among the flashing there are several settings for the way they flash. Many lights now can be controlled with your Garmin or other ant+ or Bluetooth device making it easy to change settings while riding. Some might need to think about that when they leave the bright sunny open roads and get on shady trails.

I personally don't mind the strobe or flash settings. They just don't need to be set to max all the time. Some states do prohibit use of flashing lights.
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Old 07-04-20, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bikebikebike View Post
Most lights are hard to adjust after setting out, and this is a problem.

How does the slow pulse that Light&Motion lights use work for you?
There is a slow pulse on the Cygolite tail lights, too, I'll have to use that more
I often ride a recumbent trike, and they need all they can get, I use a highviz hard hat cover on my helmet.
When out after dark , joggers on the MUP and streets without lights are almost invisible as are the 50% of bikers who ride without lights or reflectors.
- when i was cycling home from work, i would turn on my head light until I got to the local MUP. Turn it on solid, not strobing. Then turn it off on the MUP, until I was almost off of the MUP. I do not strobe a front light that's more than 200 lumen. it's just not....... something I agree people should do.
- A lot of the time I'll run a low lumen tail light blinking. I have no complaints with a 50 or 75 lumen red light flashing or pulsing. If a person is only on a MUP, then I see no reason to run any lights. If you're on a MUP with lots of road crossing that use traffic lights, sure, yes, OK, a solid DRL is not a bad idea. No problem No reason to strobe the thing.
- Small red tail lamps are small - therefore small batteries. A person can double run time by blinking the light. I understand that OK. Got it. I do it. They are also 50 ~ 75 lumens! Not a 250 or 400 lumen strobing light. To me it's a huge difference.

If you're out after dark why in the world would you strobe a bright front light? Out after dark means you lights are no longer DAYTIME running lights. They are ...... lights. Did I miss something as I listen to a podcast and type this? (multi-tasking: doing several things at once poorly......)
-- some cycling current events: https://bikepacking.com/news/war-on-...reetridersnyc/
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Old 07-04-20, 03:51 PM
  #15  
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Why is it necessary to convince anyone one way or the other?
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Old 07-04-20, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
Why is it necessary to convince anyone one way or the other?
Exactly my thoughts as well, I try not to offer advice unless Iím asked for it.
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Old 07-04-20, 08:37 PM
  #17  
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I use daytime running lights when I ride, but you don't need, and I don't use 1,000 lumen light, during the day all I use is a 400 lumen headlight on strobe mode, and a 300 lumen tail light on daytime flash mode. At night I will run with two headlights, the 400 one on strobe mounted to my helmet, and a bar headlight using 700 lumens, which can go up to 1,200 but I rarely need that much light; then in the rear I put the 300 lumen light on steady high, and add another one to my helmet and that one runs on alternation flash mode at around 150 lumens.

You're not ever going to be going as fast as car down a highway, so you don't need anything real bright, 700 lumens is plenty up front unless it's a dark raining night out in the country then you might need 1,000 to 1,200 lumens.

I know a lot of people are going to sneer at me for saying that, and that's fine, I'm not going to debate you about it, if you feel safe running 25,000 lumen light on your bicycle, hey, whatever floats your boat. But remember, the brighter the light the less your night vision in your peripheral will be.
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Old 07-04-20, 10:17 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by mrv View Post
plus one for this. ^^

also: STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -STOP THE STROBING -
- ok you get the point. If you want to convince me to run a head light on a bright sunny day....... STOP THE STROBING!
Otherwise I'm just gong to do the opposite of what you say. Whatever it is. You'll be able to get all my money by telling me not to give you my money. I really can't stand the strobing.
- Yes, a sore spot. I really can't stand it and don't understand it. So just stop it.
I dread the day I read the news that a strobing cyclist helped a motorist learn they have epilepsy because the strobing head light of a cyclist gave the motorist a seizure https://www.epilepsysociety.org.uk/p...y#.Xv-ciud7mUk

OK. Rant done. Thanks for bringing this up. Remember, you brought it up. I just went off the rails.
Cheers. Cioa. Have a nice day.
STOP THE STROBING
I will use a strobe headlight in certain daytime situations, usually on higher speed downhill situations with cross traffic, then I will turn off the strobe afterwards under slower roadway conditions, and I will never use a strobe headlight at night.
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Old 07-04-20, 11:14 PM
  #19  
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I was at a recreational day tour a number of times over the years. At the lunch venue (an arena) they also had some vendors. One fellow sells these really bright extremely obnoxious strobe lights for either front or rear on a bicycle. They are obnoxious even in daytime.

A number of years ago I was riding back into town along a two-lane pave road when an idiot coming the other way on his bicycle was running a very bright strobe light. It was so bright I had to pull over because I could not see where I was going any more. Took a while to recover. I had a light on my bike but it was totally overpowered by that guy's strobe.

Going to use a strobe light? Please turn it on, walk away from your bike a bit and then turn and look back at it to see just how it can affect approaching traffic.

Cheers
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Old 07-04-20, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
Why is it necessary to convince anyone one way or the other?
Love is the reason. The OP states that they want to save the life of their loved one(s), hence promoting their safety in the form of DRL presumably for the purpose of reducing risks of collisions or whatnot.
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Old 07-05-20, 07:24 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Joe Bikerider View Post
How about not shining your ultra bright lights in my eyes? Yes, we maybe didnít crash but did you notice me turning my head away from your rude display? I guess you think thatís my problem. Sigh.
During day light??? This thread is clearly about DAYTIME RUNNING LIGHTS. Are you having an issue with "ultra bright lights" in the daytime?
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Old 07-05-20, 07:26 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
Please don't use strobing lights.

Especially NOT on bike trails.
During the DAY???
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Old 07-05-20, 08:56 AM
  #23  
Joe Bikerider
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Yes, daytime. I am objecting to the excessively bright lights in the daytime.
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Old 07-05-20, 09:02 AM
  #24  
Jim from Boston
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How do you convince people you love to use daytime running lights?
Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
Why is it necessary to convince anyone one way or the other?
Originally Posted by Tomm Willians View Post
Exactly my thoughts as well, I try not to offer advice unless Iím asked for it.
I have previously posted to this more egregious thread, ď
Riders without lightsĒ:
Originally Posted by Rubble View Post
Ö There are two guys I regularly see - one always going the opposite direction and another I always pass - that have no lights at all. On Friday the guy I pass was wearing black shorts and a black shirt. It's pitch black outside!

While I want to call out "hey pal, get some lights" I've kept my mouth shut and hope the local cop will stop him.

Should I say something or is this a Ron White 'you can't fix stupid' deal?
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston
I'm inclined not to give advice. Most frequently when I encounter a ninja while riding, my surprised "Whoa!" hopefully indicates to them that I didn't see them.

On one occasion I did admonish a cyclist with oncoming too-bright, blinding lights on a darkened MUP, and though I couldn't make out the words, it sounded like a Mind-Your-Own-Business reply.

On my AM commute currently as now it's in the dark, it seems there are not a few riders who (self-righteously) overdo the lights to the detriment of oncoming riders, but that's another topic.
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Last edited by Jim from Boston; 07-05-20 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 07-05-20, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bikerider View Post
How about not shining your ultra bright lights in my eyes? Yes, we maybe didnít crash but did you notice me turning my head away from your rude display? I guess you think thatís my problem. Sigh.
From this thread, "
Daytime running lamps = Safer cycling ??Ē
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Further questionable evidence of the alleged safety benefits of Daylight Running Lights for bicycles are the anecdotes and claims of being detected much sooner and/or at much greater distances than without DRL.

Just how much sooner and at what distance does it really have any significant effect on reducing collision events under normal cycling conditions? Perhaps on those sun dappled forest and canopy shrouded paths that some cyclists find themselves on so frequently sharing with speeding cars these lights really do prove their worth.

I suspect for some hyper safety conscious cyclists, more is always better which also explains the quest for mega-lumen flamethrower lighting used by some bicyclists to allegedly enhance safety. And they are still here to tell all, providing all the anecdotal evidence they need to convince themselves of the value of blindingly powerful headlights.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
+ 1 dittoes. Iím a decades long commuter through Metro Boston. Some additional comments I might add after skimming the thread:

One of my safety aphorisms is ďMake yourself as visible as possible visible and assume nobody sees you Another one is ďWhen riding at night, look for cars, not just headlights.Ē As a corollary to that, active illumination IMO is preferable to reflective gear. Indeed, I think the driver without headlights on is more likely a distracted driver.

Regarding overkill, the few instances I have encountered have been on MUPS with oncoming cyclists with blazing, blinding headlights. I often think that they believe a cone of light is a force-field that will protect them, even from oncoming cars, so the more the better. Here in Boston, most of my route is visible even with just ambient street illumination.
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