Just *****ing about Trek
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 581 Post(s)
Liked 921 Times
in
518 Posts
I saw the words 'useless' and 'generic' above to describe the manuals that used to come with bikes, and I want to reiterate this.
The best information I ever saw was a package containing the 'useless generic' bicycle owners manual (basically a CYA strategy so if you get run over by a bus they can say they included a document that said 'bicycling can be dangerous'), and a similar generic manual for the suspension fork.
Shimano used to include manuals for their individual components in the form of multiple 36" x 36" (folded into 3" x 4") sheets that gave instructions for setting up their components. All of these sheets are now available online, but I think they still come in the package if you buy Shimano components aftermarket.
The best information I ever saw was a package containing the 'useless generic' bicycle owners manual (basically a CYA strategy so if you get run over by a bus they can say they included a document that said 'bicycling can be dangerous'), and a similar generic manual for the suspension fork.
Shimano used to include manuals for their individual components in the form of multiple 36" x 36" (folded into 3" x 4") sheets that gave instructions for setting up their components. All of these sheets are now available online, but I think they still come in the package if you buy Shimano components aftermarket.
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 6,149
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2362 Post(s)
Liked 1,746 Times
in
1,190 Posts
I interpret the OP's grievance to be about routine maintenance, not "repair". And yes I've seen plenty of car/truck owner's manuals with information on how to change oil, rotate tires, etc. That said, my newest motor vehicle is 25 years old, and with the march of time, there is much less about today's vehicles that is left to the daily user.
Semi-side note -- browsing an antique mall years ago, I came across an owner's manual for a 1950s American car. It included information not just about changing a tire and checking/adding oil, but about repairing a tire puncture and changing the oil and filter.
Semi-side note -- browsing an antique mall years ago, I came across an owner's manual for a 1950s American car. It included information not just about changing a tire and checking/adding oil, but about repairing a tire puncture and changing the oil and filter.
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 8,895
Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2599 Post(s)
Liked 1,924 Times
in
1,208 Posts
I recall back in the early eighties when we'd by a new HP mini- computer at work, it would come with about 20 large binders crammed with technical information on every aspect of the hardware and software; a significant investment of time and money by the seller, but vastly increasing the ability of users to interface and build on the original system.
Those were the days... now you by a tablet that comes in a plastic bag and no instructions to tell you how to turn it on. We get great prices now, though. Before the internet, finding info was brutal, and providing it with products essential. Now, not so much.
Those were the days... now you by a tablet that comes in a plastic bag and no instructions to tell you how to turn it on. We get great prices now, though. Before the internet, finding info was brutal, and providing it with products essential. Now, not so much.
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Queens, NY for now...
Posts: 1,515
Bikes: 82 Lotus Unique, 86 Lotus Legend, 88 Basso Loto, 88 Basso PR, 89 Basso PR, 96 Bianchi CDI, 2013 Deda Aegis, 2019 Basso Diamante SV
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 172 Times
in
113 Posts
Woah, what? Aside from having all of the information you need to install, adjust and maintain the given part (which sometimes involves procedures somewhat specific to Campagnolo parts), they usually include the torque specs for important components. You don't think that is valuable? Do people prefer using their greasy fingers on their phones/computers in the middle of a job to look things up?
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 8,319
Bikes: '93 Trek 750, '92 Schwinn Crisscross, '93 Mongoose Alta
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1438 Post(s)
Liked 1,092 Times
in
723 Posts
That's what makes the forum so valuable!
I recall back in the early eighties when we'd by a new HP mini- computer at work, it would come with about 20 large binders crammed with technical information on every aspect of the hardware and software; a significant investment of time and money by the seller, but vastly increasing the ability of users to interface and build on the original system.
Those were the days... now you by a tablet that comes in a plastic bag and no instructions to tell you how to turn it on. We get great prices now, though. Before the internet, finding info was brutal, and providing it with products essential. Now, not so much.
I recall back in the early eighties when we'd by a new HP mini- computer at work, it would come with about 20 large binders crammed with technical information on every aspect of the hardware and software; a significant investment of time and money by the seller, but vastly increasing the ability of users to interface and build on the original system.
Those were the days... now you by a tablet that comes in a plastic bag and no instructions to tell you how to turn it on. We get great prices now, though. Before the internet, finding info was brutal, and providing it with products essential. Now, not so much.
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 8,319
Bikes: '93 Trek 750, '92 Schwinn Crisscross, '93 Mongoose Alta
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1438 Post(s)
Liked 1,092 Times
in
723 Posts
I interpret the OP's grievance to be about routine maintenance, not "repair". And yes I've seen plenty of car/truck owner's manuals with information on how to change oil, rotate tires, etc. That said, my newest motor vehicle is 25 years old, and with the march of time, there is much less about today's vehicles that is left to the daily user.
Semi-side note -- browsing an antique mall years ago, I came across an owner's manual for a 1950s American car. It included information not just about changing a tire and checking/adding oil, but about repairing a tire puncture and changing the oil and filter.
Semi-side note -- browsing an antique mall years ago, I came across an owner's manual for a 1950s American car. It included information not just about changing a tire and checking/adding oil, but about repairing a tire puncture and changing the oil and filter.
Likes For dsbrantjr:
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Madison, WI USA
Posts: 6,149
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2362 Post(s)
Liked 1,746 Times
in
1,190 Posts
How to avoid "racy-sporty" driving:
1) Purchase a 1967 VW Beetle.
1) Purchase a 1967 VW Beetle.
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: In the south but from North
Posts: 700
Bikes: Turner 5-Spot Burner converted; IBIS Ripley, Specialized Crave, Tommasini Sintesi, Cinelli Superstar, Tommasini X-Fire Gravel
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 406 Post(s)
Liked 389 Times
in
219 Posts
I don't think I agree. Yes, perhaps better or more easily followed tutorials might be found online, but it's a stretch to say their manuals have zero useful information.
Heck the manual that comes with even a Chorus chain (123 pages btw) covers correct way to size, remove, pin and peen, determine wear requiring replacement, etc. The FD manual covers normal operation (2 clicks vs 3 clicks), how to use the barrel adjusters, etc..
Heck the manual that comes with even a Chorus chain (123 pages btw) covers correct way to size, remove, pin and peen, determine wear requiring replacement, etc. The FD manual covers normal operation (2 clicks vs 3 clicks), how to use the barrel adjusters, etc..
Woah, what? Aside from having all of the information you need to install, adjust and maintain the given part (which sometimes involves procedures somewhat specific to Campagnolo parts), they usually include the torque specs for important components. You don't think that is valuable? Do people prefer using their greasy fingers on their phones/computers in the middle of a job to look things up?
For my crankset, there is a little booklet with some information but no torque settings or installation information at all that I could see. The booklet does have a QR scan image that points you to the website with information.
Bleed kit, no manual. The rear derailleur, no manual. Front derailleur, no manual. Just the warranty information. I bought the shifters, the crank and rear derailleur from Merlin and the bleed kit and front derailleur from Glory cycles in the USA. I just assumed that was how everything had gone.
Honestly, my Shimano XT stuff is similar.
#34
Senior Member
Last year I installed Chorus 11 derailleurs with Record crank and brifters. No instructions of any sort were included with the boxed parts that came from QBP. Only thing in there was warranty info. That is it. Even the best stuff relies on internet searches for instructions.
#35
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I don't think calling a component manufacturer will get you much. I doubt many of them have printed instructions to send you. I haven't encountered a current part that didn't have instructions readily accessible online. If the manufacturer doesn't have info on their site there are likely to be You Tube videos. I don't recall bikes ever coming with much in the way of instructions. IMO, there is a more info available now than there ever was before, just in a different format. Plus you can always ask on BF
#36
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I have never gotten an instruction manual with a bike. And years ago there was no internet or youtube. There were generic repair books, but a lot of info came from word of mouth and trial and error. Admittedly, bikes were a bit simpler many years ago.
The concept of being provided all inclusive maintenance instructions over many manufacturers is completely foreign to me.
John
The concept of being provided all inclusive maintenance instructions over many manufacturers is completely foreign to me.
John
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: In the south but from North
Posts: 700
Bikes: Turner 5-Spot Burner converted; IBIS Ripley, Specialized Crave, Tommasini Sintesi, Cinelli Superstar, Tommasini X-Fire Gravel
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 406 Post(s)
Liked 389 Times
in
219 Posts
Personally, I am now concerned that I got short end of the stick. Other people mentioned a document with "all of the information you need to install, adjust and maintain the given part (which sometimes involves procedures somewhat specific to Campagnolo parts), they usually include the torque specs for important components."
I would actually like something like that and am now wondering if I got shafted!
I would actually like something like that and am now wondering if I got shafted!
#38
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I interpret the OP's grievance to be about routine maintenance, not "repair". And yes I've seen plenty of car/truck owner's manuals with information on how to change oil, rotate tires, etc. That said, my newest motor vehicle is 25 years old, and with the march of time, there is much less about today's vehicles that is left to the daily user.
Semi-side note -- browsing an antique mall years ago, I came across an owner's manual for a 1950s American car. It included information not just about changing a tire and checking/adding oil, but about repairing a tire puncture and changing the oil and filter.
Semi-side note -- browsing an antique mall years ago, I came across an owner's manual for a 1950s American car. It included information not just about changing a tire and checking/adding oil, but about repairing a tire puncture and changing the oil and filter.
Moreover: a very small percentage of people adjust and repair their own motor vehicles. A HUGE percentage of people adjust and repair their own bikes.
#39
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Last year I installed Chorus 11 derailleurs with Record crank and brifters. No instructions of any sort were included with the boxed parts that came from QBP. Only thing in there was warranty info. That is it. Even the best stuff relies on internet searches for instructions.
Some premium brands (Airstream) publish their own videos on YouTube. Or make manuals available on line. Trek does neither.
I say: light your torches and grab your pitchforks. It's time to say "no more."
#40
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,631
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4729 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
Personally, I am now concerned that I got short end of the stick. Other people mentioned a document with "all of the information you need to install, adjust and maintain the given part (which sometimes involves procedures somewhat specific to Campagnolo parts), they usually include the torque specs for important components."
I would actually like something like that and am now wondering if I got shafted!
I would actually like something like that and am now wondering if I got shafted!
Did your parts come packaged as in the video above or in individual boxes like eg. below?
#41
Senior Member
Thread Starter
LJSENSE: Did you look at the manual? It has really helpful hints and incisive advice like: "Don't cross in front of a tractor trailer." "When you get on your new Trek, put your left foot on the left pedal and your right foot on your right pedal." And this always helpful rule of cycling: "Before each ride, carefully examine each component to be sure it's properly adjusted and working correctly." Of course how you could know this is unclear given that YOU DON'T HAVE A FR****IN' MANUAL.
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Siberia West .. aka Central Wisconsin... USA
Posts: 308
Bikes: 2000 Litespeed Appalachian, 1998 Litespeed BlueRidge.. 1977? Schwinn LeTour 12.2 'Rain Daze'
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 64 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 17 Times
in
14 Posts
Go to wally-world and find the guys gals who stick those 'over the pond' boxed junk together. 'treek' is nearly the same unit now.. they could help.
'treeeeek' is just another online marketing company... for some time.. selling by chance ...........bicycles.
And you want.. what a man-U-el... LMFAO.... THAT... would cost another couple bucks to produce. No way.... that'd limit their cocktail coins.
************
Oooops.. another add-end-um. wallyworld guys and gals sure as nice to me when I venture in the few times I do.. in search of something. 90% of the employes are excellent.. try hard... working best they can to make it. Kudos. Yet the polyester group via the southern slum lord company........... head in the dark end.. mostly.
'treeeeek' is just another online marketing company... for some time.. selling by chance ...........bicycles.
And you want.. what a man-U-el... LMFAO.... THAT... would cost another couple bucks to produce. No way.... that'd limit their cocktail coins.
************
Oooops.. another add-end-um. wallyworld guys and gals sure as nice to me when I venture in the few times I do.. in search of something. 90% of the employes are excellent.. try hard... working best they can to make it. Kudos. Yet the polyester group via the southern slum lord company........... head in the dark end.. mostly.
Last edited by Aladin; 07-09-20 at 08:11 AM.
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Queens, NY for now...
Posts: 1,515
Bikes: 82 Lotus Unique, 86 Lotus Legend, 88 Basso Loto, 88 Basso PR, 89 Basso PR, 96 Bianchi CDI, 2013 Deda Aegis, 2019 Basso Diamante SV
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 172 Times
in
113 Posts
Personally, I am now concerned that I got short end of the stick. Other people mentioned a document with "all of the information you need to install, adjust and maintain the given part (which sometimes involves procedures somewhat specific to Campagnolo parts), they usually include the torque specs for important components."
I would actually like something like that and am now wondering if I got shafted!
I would actually like something like that and am now wondering if I got shafted!
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: In the south but from North
Posts: 700
Bikes: Turner 5-Spot Burner converted; IBIS Ripley, Specialized Crave, Tommasini Sintesi, Cinelli Superstar, Tommasini X-Fire Gravel
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 406 Post(s)
Liked 389 Times
in
219 Posts
You definitely got shafted. Below are just a few parts that I have picked up very recently. Some from the UK online sites (including Merlin), some from Planet Cyclery. Almost all of them have been packed like this, aside from a couple that were clearly sold as 'open box' or whatever the terminology is. Also, these all had the clear Campagnolo seal sticker fully intact, so that might might be an indicator.
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 1,851
Bikes: Lemond '01 Maillot Jaune, Lemond '02 Victoire, Lemond '03 Poprad, Lemond '03 Wayzata DB conv(Poprad), '79 AcerMex Windsor Carrera Professional(pur new), '88 GT Tequesta(pur new), '01 Bianchi Grizzly, 1993 Trek 970 DB conv, Trek 8900 DB conv
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 809 Times
in
471 Posts
And that's why I'm b****ing, not merely complaining. All these makers (who are now merely assemblers) and parts manufacturers will be quick to void a warranty if I botch a repairment or adjust because I follow bad advice on the internet.
Some premium brands (Airstream) publish their own videos on YouTube. Or make manuals available on line. Trek does neither.
I say: light your torches and grab your pitchforks. It's time to say "no more."
Some premium brands (Airstream) publish their own videos on YouTube. Or make manuals available on line. Trek does neither.
I say: light your torches and grab your pitchforks. It's time to say "no more."
Lots of 'reality tv' drama....as in drama for drama's sake..here. Thirty years ago you might have had a point. Today..there's a nearly infinite amount of text and video information available on the web, in addition to an extensive amount of first-hand experience right here on BF. Let's face it..product manuals are primarily for clarifying any (lack of) liability concerns associated with the use of the product or the box or bag it came in and a equally generic reference to a warranty, if any. Any other useful info is of such a generic nature that it's useless to anyone with an IQ over, say, 70.
If you have questions about your bike(s)..ask away or google it. All the info is readily available.
.
#46
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Drama for drama's sake
Lots of 'reality tv' drama....as in drama for drama's sake..here. Thirty years ago you might have had a point. Today..there's a nearly infinite amount of text and video information available on the web, in addition to an extensive amount of first-hand experience right here on BF. Let's face it..product manuals are primarily for clarifying any (lack of) liability concerns associated with the use of the product or the box or bag it came in and a equally generic reference to a warranty, if any. Any other useful info is of such a generic nature that it's useless to anyone with an IQ over, say, 70.
If you have questions about your bike(s)..ask away or google it. All the info is readily available.
.
If you have questions about your bike(s)..ask away or google it. All the info is readily available.
.
It also never ceases to amaze me how people will be blatantly rude in a conversation on line in a way that they would mostly not be face to face.
Likes For Elbeinlaw:
#47
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,631
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4729 Post(s)
Liked 1,531 Times
in
1,002 Posts
Could be explanations for the not infrequent "LBS screwed up xyz service" stories..? unless every LBS is putting a laptop up on the workbench for their mechanics to reference while they work. The home mechanics otoh are evidently bringing their laptops (wifi permitting) out to their garages to follow along on the youtube video tutorials while they work.
#48
Senior Member
Here is what the intro to the manual actually says:
OUR BEST ADVICE FROM 40+ YEARS OF HAVING FUN ON BIKES
Make damn sure your front wheel is on right and tight. Check it before every ride. Seriously. If you’re not sure how the wheel attaches, the details are inside (see p. 17).
You only get one brain. Helmets are really inexpensive compared to the cost of crashing without one. We’re gonna preach now: just wear one.
Avoid anything that can get stuck in your front wheel. For example: a shopping bag in your hand, purse, backpack straps, or sticks on the trail. If the front wheel stops suddenly, you’re going to have a bad time.
Use bike lights on every ride, day and night. Light technology is amazing these days. Using them on every ride, even when the sun is shining, is the single best way to stand out to motorists.
If it doesn’t feel or sound right, get it checked out. Just like planes, bikes are easier to fix before you take off. Trek retailers are there to help.
We’ll take care of you. No matter what. If you ever have a problem your local Trek shop can’t solve, connect with Trek customer service or write Trek President John Burke directly at j.burke@trekbikes.com.
Read the rest of this manual. 40 years on the road and trail have taught us a lot of stuff worth sharing.
So, there you go. Visit the Trek shop where you supposedly bought these bikes. If they can't personally explain or provide resources to help whatever it is you want to know -- like this Bluetooth system you say your bike has -- you can email the president of Trek directly and complain that they don't have a YouTube channel.
Likes For ljsense:
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,801
Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1943 Post(s)
Liked 2,164 Times
in
1,323 Posts
However, in looking back, I do recall that prior to those purchases I bought a couple of Sears Free Spirit bikes and I believe the bikes with some instructions.
I do find this discussion pretty intense and a sense that bicycle manufacturers need to supply hard copy manuals for their products. The discussion of hard copies should happen over on C&V.
I agree that it should be necessary for Trek to provide information online to enable the safe operation of the bike. I will never agree that Trek should provide information necessary to setup and bleeding hydraulic brakes or any other component that would impact the safe operation of the bike.
While I understand the OP’s complaint, I would hardly feel secure allowing him to do maintenance on my bikes since I have no clue how competent he is. Why would Trek encourage a customer to do maintenance on a bike and then possibly get injured? I don’t think we were all born last night.
There is an unbelievable amount of information online. Anyone who has done anything on a bike can attest to the plethora (and not piñatas) of YouTube videos out there that can guide someone to work on a bike and not kill themselves Honestly if someone can’t find it online, how much can will some sheets of paper help?
John
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Queens, NY for now...
Posts: 1,515
Bikes: 82 Lotus Unique, 86 Lotus Legend, 88 Basso Loto, 88 Basso PR, 89 Basso PR, 96 Bianchi CDI, 2013 Deda Aegis, 2019 Basso Diamante SV
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 943 Post(s)
Liked 172 Times
in
113 Posts
I've also purchase "take off" cranks and they came the same way, but that was expected. No big loss, although some of the Campagnolo boxes (not sure about cranks) can be transformed into a little display version, which is sorta fun if you want to leave them around like that prior to installation.
You have a right to your opinion. It never ceases to amaze me how people don't just accept the new corporate attitude of pay-your-money-and-don't-ask-us-for-any-customer-support, but embrace and defend it. If a self-repair or self-maintenance that lead to damage didn't void the warranty, then you might have a point. But them's not the facts, ma'am.
That said, a small amount of blame lies with customers as well. Modern business practices generally mean paring expenses down to the bare bones to cover small margins, and that leaves little room to adequately meet the demands of all customers, because 'the customer is always right' has essentially created some monsters. Keeping things at arms length and pushing as much as possible onto other people's plates is sometimes the only viable way to go. Treating people right seems to be an invitation for people to take advantage of you, and nobody can afford that unless they are charging a big premium.
To be clear, it's not good. Not at all. But it's just part of the race to the bottom that has been in full effect for a few decades now. When the lowest common denominator is the most profitable market segment, the rest of us are often left to suffer...