Vintage and classic bicycles without kick stands?
#26
Full Member
To me, any bike without a kickstand isn't complete. There isn't always someplace to lean your bike and sooner or later, it will inevitably end up falling. Its always been my opinion that the better the tubing the more the need for a proper stand. Thin tubes dent easier than do cheaper hi-ten tubes.
I generally always either found a stand that fit or could be made to fit properly for my bikes. Even if it meant spending an hour or so on the milling machine making up a proper top clamp. I always padded the frame with rubber as well. I also remember being able to buy rubber kickstand spacers that were made of plastic, they fit under the frame and around the chainstays with the stand attaching to the flat bottom. All you had to do was Not over tighten the thing.
I generally always either found a stand that fit or could be made to fit properly for my bikes. Even if it meant spending an hour or so on the milling machine making up a proper top clamp. I always padded the frame with rubber as well. I also remember being able to buy rubber kickstand spacers that were made of plastic, they fit under the frame and around the chainstays with the stand attaching to the flat bottom. All you had to do was Not over tighten the thing.
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#27
EngrJack
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To me, any bike without a kickstand isn't complete. There isn't always someplace to lean your bike and sooner or later, it will inevitably end up falling. Its always been my opinion that the better the tubing the more the need for a proper stand. Thin tubes dent easier than do cheaper hi-ten tubes.
I generally always either found a stand that fit or could be made to fit properly for my bikes. Even if it meant spending an hour or so on the milling machine making up a proper top clamp. I always padded the frame with rubber as well. I also remember being able to buy rubber kickstand spacers that were made of plastic, they fit under the frame and around the chainstays with the stand attaching to the flat bottom. All you had to do was Not over tighten the thing.
I generally always either found a stand that fit or could be made to fit properly for my bikes. Even if it meant spending an hour or so on the milling machine making up a proper top clamp. I always padded the frame with rubber as well. I also remember being able to buy rubber kickstand spacers that were made of plastic, they fit under the frame and around the chainstays with the stand attaching to the flat bottom. All you had to do was Not over tighten the thing.
Another issue is the meth heads who will steal a bike that’s unattended. They do exist and are bad news!
#28
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My first two bikes had kickstands (Schwinn with built-in and low-end Bianchi with bolt-on Pletscher), but I have never felt the need or desire for one since.
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
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#30
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check out noobinsf's '76 eisentraut thread. "vile kickstand!"...lol
#31
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I'll echo the above sentiment. Nothing wrong with kickstands, as long as you have a proper mounting arrangement! The Greenfield/Pletscher is probably the lightest one you can get for a standard mount, and still weighs a good bit, but hey, if you make use of it, you can probably find another place to cut weight from.
I just brazed this onto a bike the other day. Had a kickstand on it before, with the bad mounting arrangement. It had tiny dents into the chainstays in spite of hockey tape we'd put down there to prevent it. The mounting plate saves weight because you don't need that top clamp piece or a long bolt to mount the stand. Plus, the stand can't twist, because it's confined by the bent edges of the plate.
I just brazed this onto a bike the other day. Had a kickstand on it before, with the bad mounting arrangement. It had tiny dents into the chainstays in spite of hockey tape we'd put down there to prevent it. The mounting plate saves weight because you don't need that top clamp piece or a long bolt to mount the stand. Plus, the stand can't twist, because it's confined by the bent edges of the plate.
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#32
Junior Member
Why so many bikes do not have kickstand?
Simple, no demand by buyers. How many buyers demand a kickstand? Almost zero.
#33
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You've obviously never been in a shop that sold Trek Navigators in the mid-2000's. One of my local shops did. They'd get an entire case of Greenfields, rip the top off the box, and pull the stands straight out onto newly ordered bikes and customer repairs.
That same shop now has a box of Bontrager integrated kickstands for all the Trek FX and Verve models they sell.
I've also seen a bunch of mid-2000's Specialized Hard Rocks with Greenfield stands shoved in them - even when it was impossible to fit a stand without causing the FD cable to rub. But I've seen this enough times to realize that a lot of people - or shops - didn't care about compromising their FD just for the benefit of a stand.
My theory is that the POS stamped-steel kickstands that littered bicycle shaped objects from the 1970's through the 1990's - you know, the ones that don't work - helped to give kickstands a bad name to the casual rider, while the elitism of road cycling has kept the undeserved negativity going to this day.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 01-25-21 at 05:41 PM.
#34
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Leaning a bike against a wall or fence is unstable at best and rude at worst. The bike is one flip of the handlebars away from falling over. It is a compromise where you care more about low weight than a safe way of parking your bicycle.
The only safe way that is stable is laying the bike on its side. But good luck doing that in a crowded city without people tripping/running over the frame and causing worse damage.
The only safe way that is stable is laying the bike on its side. But good luck doing that in a crowded city without people tripping/running over the frame and causing worse damage.
And I’m not sure where you come up with leaning a bike against a wall or fence being “rude”. Most walls and/or fences I lean my bike against are away from traffic and people. If they fall over, they generally aren’t in anyone’s way. The kickstand bikes I’ve seen topple over are generally near a sidewalk or standing out by themselves. They are more likely to be tripped over than a bike leaning against a wall is.
Use a kickstand or don’t. It’s your choice but don’t try to tell us that a kickstand is more stable then leaning a bike against something. I’ve been without a kickstand for nearly 40 years and haven’t had a bike fall over in ages. I won’t say I’ve never had a leaned bike fall over but I’ve also had kickstand bikes fall over when I used them.
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#35
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Oh, please. Leaning a bike against a wall or fence is not “unstable”. I’ve seen plenty of bikes with kickstands topple over because of a gust of wind. I’ve not seen a bike leaned against a wall or fence topple over.
And I’m not sure where you come up with leaning a bike against a wall or fence being “rude”. Most walls and/or fences I lean my bike against are away from traffic and people. If they fall over, they generally aren’t in anyone’s way. The kickstand bikes I’ve seen topple over are generally near a sidewalk or standing out by themselves. They are more likely to be tripped over than a bike leaning against a wall is.
Use a kickstand or don’t. It’s your choice but don’t try to tell us that a kickstand is more stable then leaning a bike against something. I’ve been without a kickstand for nearly 40 years and haven’t had a bike fall over in ages. I won’t say I’ve never had a leaned bike fall over but I’ve also had kickstand bikes fall over when I used them.
And I’m not sure where you come up with leaning a bike against a wall or fence being “rude”. Most walls and/or fences I lean my bike against are away from traffic and people. If they fall over, they generally aren’t in anyone’s way. The kickstand bikes I’ve seen topple over are generally near a sidewalk or standing out by themselves. They are more likely to be tripped over than a bike leaning against a wall is.
Use a kickstand or don’t. It’s your choice but don’t try to tell us that a kickstand is more stable then leaning a bike against something. I’ve been without a kickstand for nearly 40 years and haven’t had a bike fall over in ages. I won’t say I’ve never had a leaned bike fall over but I’ve also had kickstand bikes fall over when I used them.
And if they fall over they are in people's way. Or you come back to a bike with broken derailleurs or scuffed paint instead. Because people bump into other people's parked bikes by accident. Or because they just don't care.
But that is my experience. Yours might differ.
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#36
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I'm not sure you read my second post that was right behind that one? I live and have lived in cities with bikes parked everywhere. Residents are often sick of other people parking bikes against their homes so most windows have a "no bicycle parking" sticker. And with the sheer number of bikes you often won't find an empty rack or fence to park your bike.
And if they fall over they are in people's way. Or you come back to a bike with broken derailleurs or scuffed paint instead. Because people bump into other people's parked bikes by accident. Or because they just don't care.
But that is my experience. Yours might differ.
And if they fall over they are in people's way. Or you come back to a bike with broken derailleurs or scuffed paint instead. Because people bump into other people's parked bikes by accident. Or because they just don't care.
But that is my experience. Yours might differ.
Riding in cities, I carry a U-lock to secure the bike to a parking meter and and a lightweight cable lock to secure the front wheel to the bike frame---no kickstand needed. Anywhere else, I lean the bike against a tree or whatever's available or prop it by a pedal on a curb or lay it on grass. Never any damage to any of my bikes from doing that, which is more than can be said for bikes with kickstands, which, if and when they fall, invariably fall drivetrain-side down. When that happens, the derailleur or dropout can bend, with the consequent possibility of the derailleur running into the spokes at some point.
So---not everyone wants a kickstand, and better-quality bikes generally should not have chainstay-damaging kickstands installed. If you want a kickstand for a better-quality bike, look into the kickstands that attach at the rear of the bike.
#37
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I've ridden bikes in high-density cities up and down the East Coast of the U.S. for many decades, and I've never before heard of a "No Bike Parking" sign, much less seen one. You're fortunate to live in a city where so many people ride bikes instead of driving. The OP lives in Alaska, where the likelihood of encountering "No Bike Parking" signs is, I would guess, pretty low, as would be the case for nearly everyone reading this thread.
At any rate, it's no reason for anyone here to give the middle finger salute to the cultural norms in those countries. Just because we don't have the same number of utility riders in the US doesn't mean we should belittle what the NL does; if anything, the NL should be laughing at our lack of bicycle infra.
Jacco qualified his earlier post enough for the difference in location to be clear - @cyccommute skipped that clarification by to criticize it from the perspective of a US rider only.
-Kurt
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#38
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Only have one vintage bike with a kickstand, and it came that way from the factory.
Bike is very stable when used, no worry about chain stay, or frame damage, and weight is not an issue, bike weighs a ton anyway.
Would never consider adding a kickstand to my other rides, have yet to come up with a stop, where I couldn’t lean the bike up against something, or lay it down, without harming the bike.
Tim
1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer
Bike is very stable when used, no worry about chain stay, or frame damage, and weight is not an issue, bike weighs a ton anyway.
Would never consider adding a kickstand to my other rides, have yet to come up with a stop, where I couldn’t lean the bike up against something, or lay it down, without harming the bike.
Tim
1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer
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#39
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Sources please.
You've obviously never been in a shop that sold Trek Navigators in the mid-2000's. One of my local shops did. They'd get an entire case of Greenfields, rip the top off the box, and pull the stands straight out onto newly ordered bikes and customer repairs.
That same shop now has a box of Bontrager integrated kickstands for all the Trek FX and Verve models they sell.
I've also seen a bunch of mid-2000's Specialized Hard Rocks with Greenfield stands shoved in them - even when it was impossible to fit a stand without causing the FD cable to rub. But I've seen this enough times to realize that a lot of people - or shops - didn't care about compromising their FD just for the benefit of a stand.
You've obviously never been in a shop that sold Trek Navigators in the mid-2000's. One of my local shops did. They'd get an entire case of Greenfields, rip the top off the box, and pull the stands straight out onto newly ordered bikes and customer repairs.
That same shop now has a box of Bontrager integrated kickstands for all the Trek FX and Verve models they sell.
I've also seen a bunch of mid-2000's Specialized Hard Rocks with Greenfield stands shoved in them - even when it was impossible to fit a stand without causing the FD cable to rub. But I've seen this enough times to realize that a lot of people - or shops - didn't care about compromising their FD just for the benefit of a stand.
My theory is that the POS stamped-steel kickstands that littered bicycle shaped objects from the 1970's through the 1990's - you know, the ones that don't work - helped to give kickstands a bad name to the casual rider, while the elitism of road cycling has kept the undeserved negativity going to this day.
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#40
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I'm not sure you read my second post that was right behind that one? I live and have lived in cities with bikes parked everywhere. Residents are often sick of other people parking bikes against their homes so most windows have a "no bicycle parking" sticker. And with the sheer number of bikes you often won't find an empty rack or fence to park your bike.
As to the sign, you provided the translation which I read as saying “Don’t be stupid and block this door.” I don’t advocate that people lean their bikes against a door...that’s just stupid. The sign also mentions parking bikes in a rack “around the corner” while several kickstand parked bikes can be seen reflected in the window. Frankly, that’s almost as bad as leaning a bike against a door. They are almost as much in the way.
And if they fall over they are in people's way. Or you come back to a bike with broken derailleurs or scuffed paint instead. Because people bump into other people's parked bikes by accident. Or because they just don't care.
But that is my experience. Yours might differ.
But that is my experience. Yours might differ.
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#41
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Ooh, ooooh! I found three more pics today after restoring my RAID array from a hard crash this weekend.
These are three different bikes I've bought off eBay the last 10 years where the seller failed to take pictures of the chainstays and a kickstand was present in the listing and/or at some point in life. With the blue one, the seller felt it was "totally normal on every bike".
The red ones look like the same bike, but it's actually two bikes I bought as a pair.
These are three different bikes I've bought off eBay the last 10 years where the seller failed to take pictures of the chainstays and a kickstand was present in the listing and/or at some point in life. With the blue one, the seller felt it was "totally normal on every bike".
The red ones look like the same bike, but it's actually two bikes I bought as a pair.
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#42
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It's something fairly unique to countries like the Netherlands, as @JaccoW pointed out. The no-parking/leaning signs may exist in some Danish cities as well; not 100% sure.
At any rate, it's no reason for anyone here to give the middle finger salute to the cultural norms in those countries. Just because we don't have the same number of utility riders in the US doesn't mean we should belittle what the NL does; if anything, the NL should be laughing at our lack of bicycle infra.
Jacco qualified his earlier post enough for the difference in location to be clear - @cyccommute skipped that clarification by to criticize it from the perspective of a US rider only.
-Kurt
At any rate, it's no reason for anyone here to give the middle finger salute to the cultural norms in those countries. Just because we don't have the same number of utility riders in the US doesn't mean we should belittle what the NL does; if anything, the NL should be laughing at our lack of bicycle infra.
Jacco qualified his earlier post enough for the difference in location to be clear - @cyccommute skipped that clarification by to criticize it from the perspective of a US rider only.
-Kurt
Additionally, as I pointed out, leaning a bike against a wall or something else is away from where people walk. To “flip the handlebars” someone would have to go out of their way to do so. They aren’t likely to just stumble into my bike leaned against something. The same can’t be said for kickstanded bikes. Those are usually parked close to the foot traffic way...often in a manner that blocks the sidewalk.
My theory is that the POS stamped-steel kickstands that littered bicycle shaped objects from the 1970's through the 1990's - you know, the ones that don't work - helped to give kickstands a bad name to the casual rider, while the elitism of road cycling has kept the undeserved negativity going to this day.
-Kurt
-Kurt
I've also seen a bunch of mid-2000's Specialized Hard Rocks with Greenfield stands shoved in them - even when it was impossible to fit a stand without causing the FD cable to rub. But I've seen this enough times to realize that a lot of people - or shops - didn't care about compromising their FD just for the benefit of a stand.
My...and many peoples... avoidance of kickstands isn’t because I’m a “Lance wannabe” but because we no longer see them as something of much use. In my early days of loaded touring, I watched my kickstand sink into the sand on the side of the road many times as the bike slowly toppled over. After just a few times of that happening, it’s just easier to lean the bike against something and, once I got used to leaning it, the kickstand just became unnecessary.
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#43
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For every bike I see that has suffered damage to the chainstays from the mounting of a kick stand, there is another (or 3) that has dents and scratches in the top tube, fork, seatstays and chainstays from leaning it up against whatever is handy, or laying it on the ground. Not to mention the wear and tear on the saddle and bars. Personally, I would not own a bike without a kickstand. Do what you like. There is no right or wrong.
Last edited by kross57; 01-26-21 at 11:24 AM.
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#44
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For every bike I see that has suffered damage to the chainstays from the mounting of a kick stand, there is another (or 3) that has dents and scratches in the top tube, fork, seatstays and chainstays from leaning it up against whatever is handy, or laying it on the ground. Not to mention the wear and tear on the saddle and bars. Personally, I would not own a bike without a kickstand. Do what you like. There is no right or wrong.
If you lay the bike on the ground all of those issues are even less likely. “Lay” is the operative word. If you “throw” your bike on the ground then, yes, you could damage it. But just laying it on the ground isn’t going to cause damage.
Kickstands crushing the chainstays are a very real issue on lots and lots of bikes. A scratch isn’t a frame killer. A squashed chainstay could be. That bike you posted may have a number of scratches but it is one that would be very susceptible to frame damage if you could even put a kickstand on it. It would certainly have the problem of a kickstand interfering with the front derailer that cudak888 was talking about.
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I agree with “do what you like”. But how about we avoid the “whataboutism”? There is nothing in leaning a bike against something that would make dents to the top tube, fork, seatstays, or chainstays anymore likely than when using a kickstand. Yes, a bike leaned against something can fall over but so can a bike with a kickstand. No, bikes aren’t so delicate that they can be dented when falling over. And, no, kickstands wouldn’t prevent scratches if the bike falls over which, in my experience, is as likely or even more likely than a leaned bike.
If you lay the bike on the ground all of those issues are even less likely. “Lay” is the operative word. If you “throw” your bike on the ground then, yes, you could damage it. But just laying it on the ground isn’t going to cause damage.
Kickstands crushing the chainstays are a very real issue on lots and lots of bikes. A scratch isn’t a frame killer. A squashed chainstay could be. That bike you posted may have a number of scratches but it is one that would be very susceptible to frame damage if you could even put a kickstand on it. It would certainly have the problem of a kickstand interfering with the front derailer that cudak888 was talking about.
If you lay the bike on the ground all of those issues are even less likely. “Lay” is the operative word. If you “throw” your bike on the ground then, yes, you could damage it. But just laying it on the ground isn’t going to cause damage.
Kickstands crushing the chainstays are a very real issue on lots and lots of bikes. A scratch isn’t a frame killer. A squashed chainstay could be. That bike you posted may have a number of scratches but it is one that would be very susceptible to frame damage if you could even put a kickstand on it. It would certainly have the problem of a kickstand interfering with the front derailer that cudak888 was talking about.
I'm not saying some bikes are not difficult candidates for mounting a kickstand. I consider that a design flaw.
I suppose you can be careful about how you lean your bike. You can also be careful about how you use a kickstand. I have never had a bike fall while using a properly mounted and used kickstand.
Laying your bike on the ground is a mistake. One misstep by some poor guy who doesn't see it, and that's that.
Point is, you can make valid arguments either way. As I said, there is no right or wrong.
#46
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For all my defense of kickstands, it's true, I don't use one. It's how I was brought up. On bike tours, I'd rig a guy rope and some tent stakes to hold the bike up, which allowed for easy access to both sides. It was a little bit of work and I only did it when camped, not when stopped for meals or shopping.
If I know it's a good fit, I'm happy to braze a mounting plate onto someone else's bike to make it work!
A lot of motorcyclists take a little piece of metal or wood with them, which they can place under the kickstand when on soft ground to prevent it sinking in.
It is a little crazy to me that nobody makes a nice plastic block to properly secure a kickstand to chainstays. I get that chainstays are all different shapes, but one could probably sell 3 different sizes and have the user file to match. Capitalism prevents this, I guess.
The guys at the bike shop weren't wannabe lances because of the kickstand business - rather it was the other way around. It was a whole toxic culture in a community I was briefly part of in the early '00s and I shouldn't have mentioned it.
If I know it's a good fit, I'm happy to braze a mounting plate onto someone else's bike to make it work!
A lot of motorcyclists take a little piece of metal or wood with them, which they can place under the kickstand when on soft ground to prevent it sinking in.
It is a little crazy to me that nobody makes a nice plastic block to properly secure a kickstand to chainstays. I get that chainstays are all different shapes, but one could probably sell 3 different sizes and have the user file to match. Capitalism prevents this, I guess.
The guys at the bike shop weren't wannabe lances because of the kickstand business - rather it was the other way around. It was a whole toxic culture in a community I was briefly part of in the early '00s and I shouldn't have mentioned it.
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Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Last edited by scarlson; 01-26-21 at 12:07 PM.
#47
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It is a little crazy to me that nobody makes a nice plastic block to properly secure a kickstand to chainstays. I get that chainstays are all different shapes, but one could probably sell 3 different sizes and have the user file to match. Capitalism prevents this, I guess.
Edit: There's a modern version still available. If you search the web for 'pletscher sandwich set' you'll find it. rivendell has them in stock. Although what I remember had four pieces, a pair of top and bottom pieces, one pair for each chainstay.
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Last edited by francophile; 01-26-21 at 12:06 PM.
#48
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Sources please.
You've obviously never been in a shop that sold Trek Navigators in the mid-2000's. One of my local shops did. They'd get an entire case of Greenfields, rip the top off the box, and pull the stands straight out onto newly ordered bikes and customer repairs.
That same shop now has a box of Bontrager integrated kickstands for all the Trek FX and Verve models they sell.
I've also seen a bunch of mid-2000's Specialized Hard Rocks with Greenfield stands shoved in them - even when it was impossible to fit a stand without causing the FD cable to rub. But I've seen this enough times to realize that a lot of people - or shops - didn't care about compromising their FD just for the benefit of a stand.
My theory is that the POS stamped-steel kickstands that littered bicycle shaped objects from the 1970's through the 1990's - you know, the ones that don't work - helped to give kickstands a bad name to the casual rider, while the elitism of road cycling has kept the undeserved negativity going to this day.
-Kurt
You've obviously never been in a shop that sold Trek Navigators in the mid-2000's. One of my local shops did. They'd get an entire case of Greenfields, rip the top off the box, and pull the stands straight out onto newly ordered bikes and customer repairs.
That same shop now has a box of Bontrager integrated kickstands for all the Trek FX and Verve models they sell.
I've also seen a bunch of mid-2000's Specialized Hard Rocks with Greenfield stands shoved in them - even when it was impossible to fit a stand without causing the FD cable to rub. But I've seen this enough times to realize that a lot of people - or shops - didn't care about compromising their FD just for the benefit of a stand.
My theory is that the POS stamped-steel kickstands that littered bicycle shaped objects from the 1970's through the 1990's - you know, the ones that don't work - helped to give kickstands a bad name to the casual rider, while the elitism of road cycling has kept the undeserved negativity going to this day.
-Kurt
#49
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I don't use kick stand on my nice road bikes....mix of no damage, aethetics and weight.
I have seen many abused frames from clamp on kickstands.....
I have also have had my bikes over the years fall from kickstands, vs just leaning them
I do have a kickstand on my utility/commuter and it is the only type I would use the greenfield read stablizer. the way it is mounted I see little risk to tube crushing and it works way better for me than a center kick stand
I have seen many abused frames from clamp on kickstands.....
I have also have had my bikes over the years fall from kickstands, vs just leaning them
I do have a kickstand on my utility/commuter and it is the only type I would use the greenfield read stablizer. the way it is mounted I see little risk to tube crushing and it works way better for me than a center kick stand
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(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#50
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I'm not saying some bikes are not difficult candidates for mounting a kickstand. I consider that a design flaw.
I suppose you can be careful about how you lean your bike. You can also be careful about how you use a kickstand. I have never had a bike fall while using a properly mounted and used kickstand.
Laying your bike on the ground is a mistake. One misstep by some poor guy who doesn't see it, and that's that.
Point is, you can make valid arguments either way. As I said, there is no right or wrong.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!