Kapusta

I think the weight savings being quoted here are way too optomistic if comparing similar levels of components. Lets look at XT 2x10 and 1x11

You will gain weight in the cassettes:
---11-36 10sp ~330g
---11-46 11 sp ~439g
So you gain ~ 110g there

You will lose weight at the crank:
---FC-M7100-1 (32t, 175mm): 631g
---FC-M7100-2 (26-36t, 175mm): 674g
You lose 43g there

Things that go away:
---XT front der: 146g
---XT front shifter 122g
---Cable and housing: guessing ~70g
So you lose 338g of stuff

So this has you netting a ~271g weight loss. So this back-of-the-napkin estimate is around 0.6 lbs.

These weights are taken from a variety of sources that I have not completely vetted. If someone has better number to plug in here, have at.

prj71

Its not more or less reliable than 2x or 3x systems. The whole premise is based on simplification. 1x gets rid of shifter, derailleur, cable and a chain ring...4 less things that need to be maintained or replaced. And with only one derailleur to shift, converting to a 1x drivetrain results in simpler more efficient gearing. You maintain your gear range and eliminate gearing overlap and redundancy that were common with 2x and 3x systems.

As far as weight savings...wheels are where you'll notice the weight savings. Eating one less bag of chips per week will be the same as tossing a 2x or 3x system.

Darth Lefty 

It will be a lot worse than this at a lower price point than XT. I know I'm repeating myself but the weight of the cheap cassettes is astonishing. M6100 is 596g, SX is 615g! So, a wash or worse. The cheapest 1x groupsets also have solid spindles while the most expensive ones have carbon arms. That's the other major weight difference. Between SX and XO1 there's -9 ounces in the cassette and -17 ounces in the crankset+BB. The shifters and chains are about the same, there's a few ounces in the RD.

Kapusta

By "worse" you mean less weight savings going to 1X?

Amt0571

SLX microspline cassettes are not that expensive. Around 70€ here. It's more expensive than an old 3x cassete for sure, but when you consider the price of replacing chainrings, cassette and chain, it ends up being cheaper.

That being said, I don't agree about front shifting sucking, and I have several unresolved minor issues with my "new" 12sp bike that a 3x didn't have. Mainly, bad gear spacing on higher gears and lack of range.

I rode a road bike with a Microshift R8 triple drivetrain and it was harsh when shifting and the paddle and brake feeling was mediocre, but it worked well for 7000km with no significant issues. Considering the bike cost me 399€ new, I can only say good things about it.

prj71

Bad gear spacing? Lack of Range?

Please explain.

70sSanO

Since he is talking about high end, I think it is the 10-12-14 gapping of 12 speed cassettes and not the 11-12-14 that is found on 9/10 speed cassettes.

Range on a 22-32-42 triple will be greater than a 1x12 if you want a top end comparable with a 42-11. You would have run a 38t chainring and the 38:51 is not as low as a 22:32.

John

Darth Lefty 

I thought I'd written this earlier... anyhow.

The 10t-12t shift is a big one, 20%, but that's a very high gear and likely not the cause of complaint. The 16t-18t-21t sequence puts a really short shift next to a tall one, right in the middle of your gears, that sort of thing is pretty noticeable.

If you nerd out on these things you can see the designers are always trying to put the tooth-jump transition in the most benign place they can and also retain already-designed shift sequences (especially the ones around 28t,32t) that date back decades to avoid having to design new ramps. On the 11 speed cassettes SRAM and Sunrace both hung onto the 36t and added 42. Shimano kindly gave us a 37t. The Shimano 11-46 was really ugly, the Sunrace one was ok. The smoothest 11-46 would have started with the Shimano 9x11-34 sequence with 39, 46 added on, but no one made that.

FastJake

Thanks! This is what I was curious about. I need to do more reading on that Microshift group and compare everything to my old 2x8 stuff.

Amt0571

I'm complaining about the 10t-12t jump, mainly, and the lack of range.

If you want the 22-32 equivalent on 26" wheels on a 29" 1x12 bike, you need a 30 chainring coupled with a 51 sprocket. That means that when it's flattish, I'm constantly debating between a too fast cadence on the 12t, or too slow on the 10.

Moreover, pedalling at 40+ km/h with a 30t chainring is uncomfortable. Over that speed is pointless. My max speed on my 26" on most rides was always near or slightly above 60kph. I simply can't reach that speeds with my 1x12 bike unless it can be done without pedalling.

My old 3x9 bike didn't have any of these issues. And don't get me started on the big sprocket jump on SRAM cassettes.

Kapusta

I am guessing you spent more time on the road with your bike than what most MTBs are designed for. More than I do at least.

The issues you describe are why I would not go 1x on my gravel or road bike. At least not until they get to around 14 gears in the back.

But for trail riding I have little need for the tighter gear spacing, in fact I prefer the wider spacing. Tighter spacing just means I am often shifting a more gears at a time when i do shift.

As far as the high end.... I started dropping the big ring off my 3x cranks on my MTBs 20 years ago. The only time I spin out 32/11 is on pavement or a dirt road. And in those cases I really don’t care. Between the fat meaty tires at low pressures and the aerodynamics of a barn door, I just assume coast at that point rather than killing myself for an extra 2 mph for a 30 second stretch.

On single track, the times I COULD spin out 32/11 are when the trail is steep enough that I don’t need to pedal anyway. It is my brakes that decide how fast I am going.

If I were to set up an MTB that also needs to spend a long time on pavement/gravel, I’d be looking at 2x.

Amt0571

My mountain bike rides rarely end up with less than 1000m climbed and I avoid asphalt at all costs. I only ride on the road to get to the trails, a couple of km from where I live at most. I just like being able to pedall downhill if needed, and I like to pedal at a comforatble cadence when it's flat. If I want to ride on the road I have a road bike for that.

I agree that its a minor issue that affects a small part of my rides. Nontheless, it's an issue that 20 year old tramsissions didn't have, and it bothers me.

Kapusta

Different strokes I guess. We all have our preferences. Hopefully they keep making 2x options for folks like you, because like you say, range or spacing still has to give going to 1x. 12sp has reduced the compromise somewhat, but it is still there.

In my case, 20 years ago I was pulling off the big ring to convert 3x to 2x and wishing they made wider range 9 sp cassettes so I could go 1X.

I see Microshift now has an 11-46t 9 speed cassette. I’d have been all over that 20 years ago.

Amt0571

2x still lacks range compared to 3x. And anyway, I ended up with 1x because they don't make decent bikes with anything else.

Kapusta

Now that you mention it, a lot of new MTBs won’t take a front derailleur. Losing that allowed meaningfull frame design improvements, in particular for 29ers and FS bikes.

But even before the frame design improvements were realized a lot of riders were coming to the same conclusion that I was: bigger gaps were fine, 44/11 was an unnecessarily high ratio, and fewer rings had advantages.

As I said, different strokes. And I know it kind of sucks when the trends go in a way that you’re not crazy about.

prj71

You'll soon find out that 1x is all you need.

Amt0571

I've been riding for a year with a 1x system and my opinion has not changed so far.

It works well for singletrack. That's it.

As soon as you ride the bike out of singletrack, it has lots of weakneses.

And I'm not sure if you have ever ridden a mountain bike in Europe, but here not everything are singletracks and purpose-built trails unless you go to a bike park (which most mountain bikers don't anyway). Most of us don't bring the bike to the trailhead with our car. We just ride out of our front door.

You have to ride lots of dirt roads whenever you want it or not, and in some of them you can easily reach 50km/h + if you dare and are willing to pedal. There are also some really steep dirt roads (some simply unclimbable unless you know bike trial and don't run out of breath), which means losing my 30T is not an option.

DMC707

Ive been preaching this to my riding buddies for years when they would say ---- "XTR only has an 11 tooth at the big end -- SRAM is superior because they have a 10 tooth ! " (before microspline ) --- Talk about a cog that just doesnt matter.

That said, i have switched to SRAM because it was the only way i could get 12 speed GripShift. The monster gear ratios are nice, but then again i am rarely using the 50 tooth out back either. A 12 speed 11-(or even 12) 46 would be perfect for me but i havent seen one yet

gsa103

Run wider mountain bike tires. Running standard trail pressure on flat ground, I tend to top out at at 35kph. If you're hitting 50 kph, it's because you're going downhill, and you'd probably hit 45 kph without pedaling. Spinning out on a downhill, especially on a mountain bike, doesn't really matter. Low end is definitely an issue with 1x, especially on conversions. I currently have a 22/32 crank with 11-32 9speed cassette. If you're restricted to a 11t cog due to HG hubs, it basically means you need a 50t rear to get a reasonable range. The new Deore 11-51t cassette is basically the ONLY cassette that means that requirement.

Kapusta

According to my math, a 32 ring with a 11-46 cassette would get you an essentially identical range to a 22/32 crank with 11-32 cassette. Exact same high (32/11) and and an indistinguishably close low end.

Here is the difference in the low end:
22 ring / 32 cog = 0.6875
32 ring / 46 cog = 0.6957
That is a difference of about 1.2%, or about an 1/8 or 1/10 of a typical gear change.

Amt0571

Of course I'm descending when I reach 50kph. I know I could ride at 40 without pedalling. But why should I if the surface is smooth enough and I have nothing better to do than pedal? What if I want to ride faster to jump further?

I'm sorry, but there's no excuse. 1x has a few drawbacks that 20y/o transmissions didn't have. And that's a fact.

prj71

Ummmm...yeah. It's a mountain bike. Different tools for different jobs. They don't build mountain bikes for the purpose of riding gravel roads and they don't build gravel bikes for the purpose of riding single track trails. That's like me taking a road bike to the single track mountain bike trail and complaining about how it handles.

What you describe I've done numerous times. A few times a year a few of us get together and ride gravel roads to a single track trail, then we hop on some more gravel roads and head over to another single track trail and then return back to where we started. About a 50 mile ride when done. It's not a big deal and I'm not expecting my 1x bike (32t Chainring/11-46 cassette) to maintain road bike speeds.

And why don't you bring your bike to the trailhead with a car?

I guess if it bugs you enough you can just get a cheap mountain bike where 2x/3x is offered.

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes-talon-29

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/atx-2021

70sSanO

I do have to say that this is the only thread I can recall where someone actually gave advice on how to ride slower to be able to fit into the limitations of the gearing.

John

prj71

It's not a fact. It's false. The 2x and 3x systems for mountain bikes you had chain drop, more maintenance, more adjustment, more weight, cross chaining etc.

All of that stuff goes away with a 1x system.

https://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/...1x-drivetrains

Reflector Guy

"It's not a fault of the system, it's a feature!"