hph

Hello everyone, nice to meet you all. I recently picked up a free '67 Phillips. I will make a proper project blog soon, but today I rebuilt the 3-speed hub on it.

While I was putting it back together, I took a picture of every step and made an album of it for educational purposes. Even though there is at least 1 video out on this already, when working in the shop it can often be easier to reference some photos and instructions than try to follow along with a video, especially if you don't have good internet in the shop.

Tomorrow I will add disassembly and re-assembly notes to each photo to make it easy to follow. Update: these have been added.

Here is the album: https://imgur.com/a/LDgQXKl

It's roughly 25 steps/photos to disassemble, so around 50 steps in total.

Any comments are welcome. I'm especially interested in opinions on whether Red Grease was appropriate to use. It seemed thicker than what was originally in there, but it's what I had on hand and it seemed to ride better afterward, so I'm not worried for the time being.

Nemosengineer 

A very nice pictorial and very well done.

: Mike

cudak888 

Excellent writeup.

I highly recommend 00 grease slathered liberally on all the internal moving bits, and marine-grade grease on the bearings. The 00 doesn't wash away the marine grade, and the marine grade tends to stay away from the clutch and clutch key where heavy grease tends to gum up the works and result in an unreliable 2nd gear.

So far, have had excellent results with both AWs and FWs. The pawls become near-silent; it's like riding a Sturmey SW that works.

-Kurt

daverup 

Here is a link for the OP's guide,
https://imgur.com/a/LDgQXKl

hph

Thanks Nemo and Cudak,

Looking back I think that it originally had 00 grease in it, or thereabouts. The problem with that was all the bearings were completely dry.

Bearings of course you'd want regular grease, as you mentioned. The gearsets could go either way... I looked at the datasheet for Red N Tacky and it actually suggested open gearsets as an ideal use case.

The only potential problem is that it does seem to gum up the ratchets a bit, but it didn't seem to be a problem when actually riding. Seems to me that as you use the thing more, the grease will thin out and naturally reduce the gumminess over time.

markk900

I am by no means an expert, but I had understood grease was ok on the bearings (and even helpful to retain oil), but the internals should be oil only.

I once bought a NOS hub from the early 80s and while it was bone dry inside when I checked it, it has provided years of good service after the grease/oil treatment.

hph

The correct grade of oil/grease to use depends on only a couple things:
- Heaver lube will tolerate more pressure and rougher components, but the viscosity means that they will not move as nimbly.
- Vice versa.

So bearings you need grease because the contact area is so small. Gears can use whatever; thicker lube will last longer but thinner lube will slightly reduce geartrain loss. The ratchets really should only have grease on the hinge pin, not smothered in grease like I did, but at the end of the day they seem to work no better or worse than before, so I won't change it since it's already together.

cudak888 

I'm not sure of the consistency of Red N Tacky myself, but so long as the pawls engage quickly (thus ensuring you're not engaging only one pawl), it might work.

The issue I've come across with heavier lubricants or cross-contamination is the 2nd-gear engagement issue that I described above. It results in some nasty freewheeling, followed by some nasty words of frustration when one realizes the hub has to come apart again. (Also, as @tcs points out, I'm in a warm, humid climate. YMMV for snowbirds and the like).

Also: I'm all for experimentation for those who find it interesting, but just keep in mind that Sturmey-Archer currently specifies NGLI 00 in the hub and NGLI No.2 rated greases for the bearings in the first place.

The old Sturmey guidelines from back in the day recommended oil. The current Sturmey hubs run a direct equivalent to 00 grease in them - including the modern AW (basically the AW NIG) and its cousin the SRF-3 (an aluminum bodied AW NIG).

I don't have anything against anyone who wants to use oil in a Sturmey hub, but there's no cross-contamination seal between the hub internals and the bearing raceways on these things. If the oil winds up washing up into the raceways (easy enough) and the bearing grease happens to be susceptible to it, the heavier grease could wash into the hub and into the clutch. It depends on the combo used.

I don't foresee that happening with the 00/marine grease combo. As far as I'm concerned, 00 grease overcomes that without any risk that it won't be right the first time. It also overcomes a potential "British reliability" cliché, and I wind up with near silent pawls compared to an oiled hub. Zero drawbacks, many benefits.

I think the easiest way to describe 00 grease would be to call it sticky gear oil without the stink. It's slick as ice, thin as gear oil, but not runny. It's very reassuring to use when you're greasing up all the bits upon reassembly.

-Kurt

markk900

Kurt - when "topping up" on occasion do you use the 00 through the oil port? Or has that been rendered unnecessary? I will check out the grease for my next teardown; I always worry about the pawls getting gummed up as those springs are SO light, and I have had trouble with sticky pawls on one hub.

Edit: Oh BTW I find the ticking pawls quite relaxing!

hph

Thanks Kurt, I'll keep an eye out for those problems and switch to 00 if needed.

pastorbobnlnh 

Kurt and HPH,

I've been a big fan of Super Lube Synthetic grease since jumping into the freewheel servicing hobby/business (sic) back in 2011. Interestingly it says it is 00 weight. Here is the PDF spec sheet. On the freewheels I service; I use the Super Lube in the races with the bearings. On the pawls I drip high grade machine oil on the pivots and surfaces, and rub it on the ratchet teeth.

Since relocating to flat-coastal riding, I've been enjoying riding bikes with SA vintage transmissions. Which raises the question about servicing and maintaining my hubs.

Currently I'm riding regularly a 1950s AM hub, and occasionally a FW hub. I also have a vintage SA 5-speed wheel I hope to use on a bike once I decide on a suitable frameset. On the AM ( which I purchased from @nlerner ), I've only dribbled in high-grade machine oil. The FW was built over 10 years ago and riden very little (in the mountains of NH), and has had no oil since.

What would your recommendations be for service? Should I service my hubs with Super Lube? Or do you recommend a specific 00 grease? Both the AM and FW shift well. There is a bit of lag on pawl engagement when shifting (maybe a 1/4 of crank rotation).

Thanks for your guidance! HPH, thanks for the pictures!

cudak888 

Unless you have a funnel, the 00 bottles I've worked with probably won't play nice between the spokes. I haven't been using it enough to feel obligated to add any additional grease, but since it does not flow like oil, I can't see there being any benefit in pouring it through the port. You'd have to fill the whole hub before it ever reaches the clutch and other bits that really benefit from it. Again, the 00 grease sticks nicely, so I don't expect it to come off the bits located closer to the center.

The new Sturmey hubs are sealed, so I'm pretty sure one can grease the internals and forget about it for a nice long while. It's buttery smooth when greased, so it should be easy enough to tell when the grease needs to be replaced just by pulling the indicator rod. I haven't run them with 00 grease long enough to find out.

If you like the classic ticking sound, you can always go easy on the pawl grease. It's sticky enough that you could grease up the entire inside - clutch, keyway, planet gears, sun gears - and leave the pawls dry (not that I would). I tend to plaster the races with it, so they run really quiet. You can still hear when you click up into third and fourth though. First and second are nearly silent.

Interesting. I'm familiar with Super Lube; Dad used to stock it in his truck. It has a thicker consistency than the grease-in-a-squeeze-tube 00's that I've used; perhaps it has some modifiers in it.

I'd go and get a squeeze tube of 00 grease, personally. This is what I've bought in the past:
Alco Super Lube (no longer available at Amazon): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I'm currently on this huge bottle of Champion 00 grease (also apparently no longer in stock): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 - here's another seller with it: https://www.amazon.com/Rotary-Pourab...s%2C101&sr=8-2

If you don't mind an experiment, absolutely try Super Lube. I wouldn't do so on the AM or FW though; I'd keep it simple and rebuild a "sacrificial" AW to play with on a spare wheel. It won't put one of your bikes out of commission, and the problem points are known - we know what an AW does when it's not happy with the grease inside it. Plus, it's easier to take apart for a mineral spirts dump than either the AM or FW. Do you have any specific bearing grease in mind, or do you plan to do all Super Lube?

As for service - well, I must have run the FG on my '51 Raleigh nearly dry for close to 16 years now. Never a problem. I still haven't opened it up, just like your FW. No ill effects yet, and I usually abuse the daylights out of that one.

-Kurt

gna

Bikesmith, aka MnHPVA Guy , has some SA tips: https://bikesmithdesign.com/SA/SA-tips.pdf
He uses a similar 00 grease as Kurt recommends, which can be found at places that service lawnmowers and snowblowers. It brushes on and stays put, so does not need to be topped up.
I'd be curious about super lube, but I think it's a bit thicker. I do have a tube of super lube, so I suppose I could try it on an old AW hub, but I just rebuilt one using the hybrid method.

Not to derail, but I'm rebuilding an S3C hub right now. The instructions say to use Shell Alvina No. 3 in the bearings. Anyone know what an equivalent is? I think I just used white lithium grease the last time I rebuilt one 10 years ago, and brake grease for the brake band.

hph

Thanks Bob, glad you enjoyed the photo album.

I have Super Lube but because it is the same price for a 3oz tube as Red N Tacky is for a 14oz tube, I only use it when I only need a small amount of odorless grease.

It seems too thick for 00. I would think it's most similar to Mustard (0) or Tomato Paste (1) on this chart. https://thelubricantstore.com/layman...o-nlgi-grades/

tcs

As might be expected for a device that's been manufactured in the tens of millions over the last 120 years, no independent research/experimentation is necessary to maintain these hubs. Feel free to blaze your own trail or promote your own secret formula, but you don't need to. Sturmey worked things out long ago. Sturmey-Archer has info sheets on all their current products on their webpage and historical info sheets at Sturmey Heritage.

If one wants to do oil lubrication,









If one wants to do grease lubrication,






BTW, chapeau to Sturmey for offering generics rather than demanding the use of expensive, company proprietary lubricants (looking at you, Shimano!)

SirMike1983 

I use the Lucas green lithium grease on the bearings and 3-in-1 blue bottle oil for the innards. I haven't had issues with that combination. Don't use the black/red 3-in-1 - it degrades and gums up the hub. I'm sure there are other alternatives that work using modern materials, but I'm happy with my grease and oil combination.

The big issue with "grease" in the Sturmey hub was if someone tried to use the old style, heavy brown axle grease in the hub. For many, many years, coaster brakes were the most common hub in the US by far. Many of these hubs used axle grease in their bearings, and some used heavy grease on the braking surfaces if they were a shoe-friction type hub. Others used gear oil on clutches and discs and brown grease in the bearings. A mechanic familiar with only coaster brakes might be inclined to pack the Sturmey AW with axle grease, because that's what all the other rear hubs he services use. It will gum the hub and make a mess in short order. They probably had this much less frequently in England, where Sturmey hubs were more familiar for many years.

tcs

I see you're in Southern Florida.

cudak888 

I imagine the heavier greases, besides being wrong by Sturmey's own guidelines, are a lot of "fun" in colder climates.

I think the real question here is whether there's any value in trying to find alternatives to the greases that Sturmey has already established for their hubs in the modern age. Modenrn Sturmey has already done the research to come up with better lubricants for these hubs than they had under the classic era, and those who've used the Sunrace-recommended greases in older hubs have found that these are good recommendations. So why try to reinvent the lubricant? It's easy enough to get the right stuff in the first place.

-Kurt

tcs

One must 'top up' the oil because it evaporates and leaks out (& leaves a small mess to be wiped down). I haven't found the NLGI #00 to leak out.

Nailed it. My pre-War Sturmey AW seems very happy with NLGI #00 (personal: John Deer Cotton Picker Spindle Grease) in the works and NLGI #2 (personal: StaLube Marine Grease) in the axle bearings and labyrinth seals. Stays clean, too.


Oil lubrication tip: Fit an oil-tight plastic oiler (HSA106) rather than the old metal flip top oiler (S545, L23).

Bianchi84

Back in 1984 or 1985, the owner of the bike shop I started working at on Long Island, NY sent me to Schwimn School in New Jersey. One of the things we had to do was rebuild SA 3 speed hubs individually. However, once we disassembled it completely, the instructor put all your parts in a metal bin and mixed them all up. No instructions to follow.. just had to remember how to re-assemble from prior instructions.
(Still have my Schwinn Factory Trained Mechanic card!)