Wooden rims?
05-20-24, 12:42 PM
#126
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Sure. That's why I prefer to look at the numbers. I've seen test results that showed only a tiny (2/100") difference in vertical compliance between an aluminum and a titanium frame. Try as I might, I haven't found any demonstrating significantly greater vertical compliance in a Ti frame.
Ti frames are great in many ways. Wouldn't mind owning one, I guess. But I suspect I'd still prefer my aluminum frame/aluminum fork Specialized Langster fixed-gear bike. Just came back from 3 1/2 hours in the hills of Baltimore County on the Langster. Again, I don't know what "comfort" means in the context of road bikes, but I get a lot of pleasure out of riding that bike.
This topic reminds me of another: the claim that the carbon fabric in carbon forks is configured to absorb shock. Back in the '80's, a teammate damaged his steel fork in a race and got a replacement carbon fork, one of the first I'd seen. I asked him how the new fork felt. "The same," he said.
Now, four of my six bikes in active rotation have carbon forks. How do they feel compared to the steel and aluminum forks on the other two? The same.
Ti frames are great in many ways. Wouldn't mind owning one, I guess. But I suspect I'd still prefer my aluminum frame/aluminum fork Specialized Langster fixed-gear bike. Just came back from 3 1/2 hours in the hills of Baltimore County on the Langster. Again, I don't know what "comfort" means in the context of road bikes, but I get a lot of pleasure out of riding that bike.
This topic reminds me of another: the claim that the carbon fabric in carbon forks is configured to absorb shock. Back in the '80's, a teammate damaged his steel fork in a race and got a replacement carbon fork, one of the first I'd seen. I asked him how the new fork felt. "The same," he said.
Now, four of my six bikes in active rotation have carbon forks. How do they feel compared to the steel and aluminum forks on the other two? The same.
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05-20-24, 01:46 PM
#127
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This topic reminds me of another: the claim that the layup of the fabric in carbon forks is configured to absorb shock. Seems possible, but I'd guess that the main design objective is to provide adequate strength with minimal weight. Not sure how much wiggle room in the design there is for making them more shock-absorptive as well.
https://www.bianchi.com/bianchi-cv/#:~:text=Bianchi%20CV%20cancels%2080%25%20of,our%20carbon%20frames%20and%20forks.
05-20-24, 02:55 PM
#128
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Yeah, I don't think you've come even close to proving "vastly inferior". Carbon rims are notorious for poor braking in the wet, for example, and your contention that wood is heavier got blown out of the water at the top of the thread. You don't like the idea, and they wouldn't be wheels you'd want to use. I think we all get that.
05-20-24, 02:59 PM
#129
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And there goes the last of the ways in which wood is "vastly inferior". Well done.
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05-21-24, 01:46 PM
#130
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Can someone please explain why there is a discussion on wood rims for a bike?
This isn't a thing and never will be save for a novelty one off item that very few people would be interested in.
This isn't a thing and never will be save for a novelty one off item that very few people would be interested in.
05-21-24, 04:17 PM
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I imagine that most of the wooden rims being produced today are bought by people who do Eroica rides, particularly in Italy.
05-21-24, 05:22 PM
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Carbon fibre frames and components generally have very good vibration damping properties. It’s pretty evident to me with carbon bars, especially on mountain bikes. Bianchi took it a step further with their CV frame technology, but I have never ridden one.
https://www.bianchi.com/bianchi-cv/#:~:text=Bianchi%20CV%20cancels%2080%25%20of,our%20carbon%20frames%20and%20forks.
https://www.bianchi.com/bianchi-cv/#:~:text=Bianchi%20CV%20cancels%2080%25%20of,our%20carbon%20frames%20and%20forks.
Most of the "shock absorbing" in a road bike is going to be in the tires. The frame doesn't appear to be able to do much there at all.
Last edited by njkayaker; 05-21-24 at 05:32 PM.
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05-21-24, 06:40 PM
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"Absorbing shock" (compliance?), what @Trakhak was talking about, is not the same as vibration dampening. Vibration dampening might be a thing (I'm not arguing that it isn't) but manufacturers sell the "laterally stiff/vertically compliant" stuff too, Given the variations in designs that apparently always improve this, I'm tending towards seeing this as BS. Look at manufacturers that add and remove shock absorbing "elastomere" elements from frames (even the same basic frame).
Most of the "shock absorbing" in a road bike is going to be in the tires. The frame doesn't appear to be able to do much there at all.
Most of the "shock absorbing" in a road bike is going to be in the tires. The frame doesn't appear to be able to do much there at all.
In any event, the vibration people worry about presumably has to pass through the tires and then through the rim and spokes and fork blades. In other words, I, too, am dubious regarding the idea that vibration damping happens much at all, as well as the idea that differences in vibration between diamond frames made of various materials are perceptible.
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05-21-24, 07:16 PM
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And on the topic of vibration-damping properties of frames built with various metals, both steel and titanium are denser than aluminum and thus transmit vibration more readily.
In any event, the vibration people worry about presumably has to pass through the tires and then through the rim and spokes and fork blades. In other words, I, too, am dubious regarding the idea that vibration damping happens much at all, as well as the idea that differences in vibration between diamond frames made of various materials are perceptible.
In any event, the vibration people worry about presumably has to pass through the tires and then through the rim and spokes and fork blades. In other words, I, too, am dubious regarding the idea that vibration damping happens much at all, as well as the idea that differences in vibration between diamond frames made of various materials are perceptible.
05-21-24, 07:19 PM
#135
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Actually, I think mute captured it. Just as well not to hear it.
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05-21-24, 07:43 PM
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"Absorbing shock" (compliance?), what @Trakhak was talking about, is not the same as vibration dampening. Vibration dampening might be a thing (I'm not arguing that it isn't) but manufacturers sell the "laterally stiff/vertically compliant" stuff too, Given the variations in designs that apparently always improve this, I'm tending towards seeing this as BS. Look at manufacturers that add and remove shock absorbing "elastomere" elements from frames (even the same basic frame).
Most of the "shock absorbing" in a road bike is going to be in the tires. The frame doesn't appear to be able to do much there at all.
Most of the "shock absorbing" in a road bike is going to be in the tires. The frame doesn't appear to be able to do much there at all.
Of course tyres are important in reducing vibration, but if you ride on chip seal, plenty of high frequency road buzz still finds its way through to the bars, so I don’t think it is BS to suggest that frame vibration is a factor. As I mentioned, carbon bars can make a real difference in regard to road buzz.
BTW as a mechanical engineer I really hate the term “shock absorber”. It doesn’t really say anything about compliance or damping.
05-21-24, 08:13 PM
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I mentioned vibration specifically because it is different from stiffness/compliance. Measuring static deflection under load tells you nothing about how a structure would transmit and damp vibration.
Of course tyres are important in reducing vibration, but if you ride on chip seal, plenty of high frequency road buzz still finds its way through to the bars, so I don’t think it is BS to suggest that frame vibration is a factor. As I mentioned, carbon bars can make a real difference in regard to road buzz.
BTW as a mechanical engineer I really hate the term “shock absorber”. It doesn’t really say anything about compliance or damping.
Of course tyres are important in reducing vibration, but if you ride on chip seal, plenty of high frequency road buzz still finds its way through to the bars, so I don’t think it is BS to suggest that frame vibration is a factor. As I mentioned, carbon bars can make a real difference in regard to road buzz.
BTW as a mechanical engineer I really hate the term “shock absorber”. It doesn’t really say anything about compliance or damping.
I wasn’t saying anything about vibration-dampening anyway (I just pointed out it wasn’t what @Trakhak was talking about.) I even said it might be a thing.
I don’t find carbon frames particularly-dampening on chip seal. You’d get much, much better effect from lower pressure.
05-22-24, 02:36 AM
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https://www.sorbothane.com/technical...ion-absorbers/
If you follow this discussion back a few pages you might note that vibration damping properties of wooden wheels (whether significant or not) is what led to this particular discussion.
Last edited by PeteHski; 05-22-24 at 03:50 AM.
05-22-24, 06:06 AM
#140
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There are objective problems with wooden rims and technical solutions to solve them, therefore substantial differences between rims produced by Ghisallo, CBitalia and others, and it would have been useful to discuss them.
Yesterday I spoke with several craftsmen, cyclists who still use wooden rims (not only during Eroica events), people who know the history of cycling and who explained to me why until 1955 they were even preferred to alluminium rims during competitions.
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05-22-24, 06:08 AM
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No, it would be useful if people didn't write nothing but ******** that is only the result of prejudice and ignorance.
Frankly no one in here has ever driven or analyzed a wooden rim, yet you are all ready to write tons of useless ******** that just wastes my time.
There are objective problems with wooden rims and technical solutions to solve them, therefore substantial differences between rims produced by Ghisallo, CBitalia and others, and it would have been useful to discuss them, but no dice.
Yesterday I spoke with several craftsmen, cyclists who still use wooden rims (not only during Eroica events), people who know the history of cycling and who explained to me why until 1955 they were even preferred to alluminium rims.
All things that no one here knows, no one says, no one is willing to invest some time doing personal research, everyone is ready to write miles of ******** on ********, and in the end, I am not even paid to educate no one, nor I am affiliated with Ghisallo, so it's only a waste of my personal time.
This forum is very disappointing, this is the third time I've thought so.
I opened a discussion on the mechanics of the derailleur and it was just a waste of time with really imbecile people who did nothing but inflate their egos, and after solving that specific problem, I would have liked to post all the technical documentation, and I just didn't do it because of the way it is in here.
Then I got nervous again when I spent time describing the simple equations relating to standover and various parameters of a frame geometry, and I didn't like the tone of the answers at all.
And in the end, this topic ... For sure, I won't write anything anymore.
Frankly no one in here has ever driven or analyzed a wooden rim, yet you are all ready to write tons of useless ******** that just wastes my time.
There are objective problems with wooden rims and technical solutions to solve them, therefore substantial differences between rims produced by Ghisallo, CBitalia and others, and it would have been useful to discuss them, but no dice.
Yesterday I spoke with several craftsmen, cyclists who still use wooden rims (not only during Eroica events), people who know the history of cycling and who explained to me why until 1955 they were even preferred to alluminium rims.
All things that no one here knows, no one says, no one is willing to invest some time doing personal research, everyone is ready to write miles of ******** on ********, and in the end, I am not even paid to educate no one, nor I am affiliated with Ghisallo, so it's only a waste of my personal time.
This forum is very disappointing, this is the third time I've thought so.
I opened a discussion on the mechanics of the derailleur and it was just a waste of time with really imbecile people who did nothing but inflate their egos, and after solving that specific problem, I would have liked to post all the technical documentation, and I just didn't do it because of the way it is in here.
Then I got nervous again when I spent time describing the simple equations relating to standover and various parameters of a frame geometry, and I didn't like the tone of the answers at all.
And in the end, this topic ... For sure, I won't write anything anymore.
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05-22-24, 06:12 AM
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05-22-24, 06:31 AM
#143
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Well, you know, if all you wanted was commentary from people who had actually experienced wooden rims, this thread would have been comprised entirely of your initial post, followed by a "Anyone? Hello?"
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05-22-24, 06:31 AM
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I'd like to see pics of the Ti bike with wooden rims but without the accompanying attitude. Doesn't seem likely.
05-22-24, 06:54 AM
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So maybe it would be useful if you could tell us why these riders still prefer wooden rims over aluminium and especially carbon?
05-22-24, 10:03 AM
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05-23-24, 06:02 AM
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Clearly OP has moved this thread beyond salvage. I suggest when he gets the wheels on a bike, start a new thread in C&V with pics and a review.
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05-23-24, 02:47 PM
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