choddo

so you still haven’t said what happens in the gears that “don’t work”. Skipping/attempting to change gear?

I edited my post but nothing major. If it’s just skipping try tweaking this and test riding/shifting.



if it will unscrew anti-clock but that makes it worse and it won’t screw in tighter, the cable pinch bolt on the derailleur needs opening up and cable allowed to loosen very slightly, maybe 5mm (and back out the adjuster 3-4 turns before reclamping the cable) to give the adjuster some breathing room. Just needs a hex key to do that and do it with the gears in the smallest cog so it’s not under much tension when you release it and you’ll have more control.

I don’t think you’d be allowed / encouraged to put steel and aluminium in most landfill facilities in this country - mostly because they can make money from it - and I’m guessing you’re in ths country from the wall/meter box, high quality of English and timezone.

choddo

Oh and I meant to say - it could be a bent hanger, that can cause weird issues which you can’t adjust your way out of, but if it worked ok for a few weeks that doesn’t seem very likely.

This Wreckage

Yes, the gears skip. Number 7, the top one, doesn't select at all. I've fiddled with that knob but nothing changes. I'll have a go at opening that bolt. From experience, my utter hamfistedness will make it much worse and destroy the entire derailleur.

There's a van that comes round our street every week calling 'Any old iron', so they could have it. I'm not sure if I want another bike, although it's the only transport I have. I'm just so fed up with gears and brakes.

choddo

The fact it won’t go into a gear at the big cog end, but did before and the limiter hasn’t been adjusted, suggests to me the cable has stretched/ loosened a bit.

hub gears are definitely more reliable/robust but complete mystery to me once they have a problem. My first bike had them and I still to this day have no idea how I kept that thing going for 4 ternage years with no proper tools and even less of a clue.

stratman

Dear OP,

I sense your deep frustration with derailleur geared bikes. But I am certain it is almost certainly possible to get beyond that. Resources like this forum are a wealth of knowledge, though one does have to learn how to separate the wheat from the chaff, in terms of advice. BTW, I may be wrong, but I get a sense you may be in the UK. If so there are a couple of forums with mainly UK posters which might be useful, if nothing else because they might point you to UK suppliers of bits and pieces. This forum is excellent though.

My story: I started cycling, a little bit, about 10 (?) years ago, on hub geared bikes. Yes, they are apparently simple and do have some advantages. But if they go wrong, which my last one did, it can be just as complex to sort out, and as all the workings of the gears are in a metal can, you can't really see the problem. So five years ago I built up, from a bare frame, a 9 x 3 derailleur bike. I had never ridden one before, much less built one. I'm not an engineer or mechanic or anything like that. I'm reasonably competent at DIY, and spent a few years in the construction industry, but didn't have any specific bike fixing skills when I started. I suppose I like to think I'm careful about using tools, and like to learn. When I built my bike, at first it took a while to get it right, including the indexing. But now I have I never touch it. I can get all 27 gear combinations, including the silly ones that you shouldn't really use, and it shifts perfectly, pretty much every time.

I think you can almost certainly achieve the same outcome, with a little patience. Though I understand your patience is running thin, that is obvious. But at the moment you aren't getting what you want - a bike that works. Plus you are spending money, maybe a lot of money, paying supposed professionals who can't make it work either. The thing about a bike is that it's one of the few machines in modern life that it is possible to completely understand and maintain on your own, and in my case, build from scratch. And once you've learnt to do that, you've got practically free transport.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. A bike stand is invaluable to me. Now that I know what I'm doing (sort of!) I could probably do most things without one. But it would be more awkward, a lot more awkward. And I'm a bit precious about the cosmetic condition of my bike, so leaning against walls and suchlike risks scratches. Certainly being able to run through the gears with the bike on a stand was essential to me in understanding what change (cable tension, limit screws, B screw) made what difference. So having a stand helped me when I was learning.

I think you said you're in a small flat and your bike lives in a shed? But if you've got room to keep a bike somewhere, you've also got room for a stand. They pretty much all fold up, so you can put them away when you've finished. I'm fortunate in have a patio door and a partner who tolerated a bike stand and bike in the dining room, so I could work inside/outside and move between them easily. Though that toleration is coming to an end now!

If there is any way at all you can get and use a stand, do so.

When it comes to gears (or any part of a bike), understanding the purpose of each component - what it's for - is essential. Various instructions will say things like "turn this screw until this thing doesn't happen" but don't really explain the underlying purpose or principle. So, here's my take on a few things.

1. Limit screws just stop the chain falling off the inside or outside. They prevent the derailleur pushing the chain past the smallest or largest sprocket (let's call the things on the rear cassette "sprockets").

2. The tension in the cable, which is adjusted by turning the adjuster either at the lever or the derailleur, acts against the tension of the spring in the derailleur. These are the two things that need to be balanced. When you want to move from a smaller sprocket to a larger one, you push the lever and that action, via the tension in the cable, moves the derailleur, overcoming the force of the derailleur spring, so that the chain moves onto a larger sprocket (or chainring, on the front). When you want to move from a larger sprocket to a smaller one, your press the appropriate lever, you will feel some sort of click, and the spring in the derailleur pulls the derailleur sideways, and the chain on to the next sprocket, so long as there isn't too much tension in the cable. When my rear derailleur is on the smallest sprocket there is hardly any tension in the cable. I can feel that be trying to move the inner cable that is exposed on the downtube (on my bike). But if there's not enough tension it won't move up onto the second sprocket. This is, I think, a fairly standard test for cable tension - does the derailleur move the chain from the smallest sprocket to the next one easily. I think the opposite also sometimes applies - too much cable tension and the derailleur spring can't overcome the cable tension to drop the chain from the largest to next sprocket down.

Testing 2. above was a piece of cake with a bike stand. Get one, if you possibly can. Or maybe find a bike co-op with one, if you can.

There is always the possibility of course of a more fundamental problem with your setup. The levers don't match the derailleur(s) in terms of "speed" (7,8,9,10 speed etc.). Bent derailleur, incorrect mix of road and mountain bike drive train components. Wrong speed chain (maybe). But if any of those are the case, and the bike shops you've been taking the bike to haven't spotted then, ask for your money back, as they are clearly incompetent.

Replacing cables isn't that hard, but again, needs to be learned. And buy proper cable cutters, it makes the job way easier.

This Wreckage

Thanks for taking the time to give me such excellent and detailed advice. No one I know is so helpful.

- Yes, I have had it with derailleurs. I was much happier with a single speed bike as a child or my mum's bike with its 3-speed Sturmey Archer that was never maintained in any significant way.
- Despite decades of trying, I am utterly incompetent with my hands at DIY, painting, whatever. I've watched many videos on adjusting gears & brakes and I still can't do it. Perhaps a 1-2-1 training course might do it, but there are no bike co-ops or anything similar around here in Darlington. The shop I bought my used bike from was a public interest company that occasionally ran courses which I now wish I'd attended, but it went bust. There's nothing else I know of.
- The bike shops have, over the years, made my bikes work fine. It's the fact it doesn't last more than a few weeks that frustrates me. I can't blame all those different people. I blame the derailleur system, which appears absurdly complex and innately prone to problems. No motor vehicle and few e-bikes have transmissions open to the elements. That's asking for trouble.
- No room for a bike stand here and I'd not make good use of it anyway.
I was out on my bike just now and maybe 5 of the 7 speeds worked, sort of. I aim for drain gratings that give the bike a bump and that sometimes shifts the gear. Either I'll abandon cycling completely - I'm 58 so I get a bus pass soon - or I'll splurge my savings on what must be my final bike, a fancy Dutch-style with disc brakes and maybe 7 hub gears. I'm looking at the Gazelle Esprit Low-step: heavy, expensive, but seems ultra reliable and low maintenance. Its chain is enclosed - what a great idea.

Thanks again!

stratman

Sure, I understand.

That Gazelle might be a better option then. I thought when I looked at the picture in the link you posted that the bike had roller brakes. Roller brakes sometimes look similar to disc brakes, because there's an external heat sink that is, well shaped like a disc. But roller brakes work internally. Some people think they are even better, as far as maintenance is concerned, than disc brakes. Everything is internal and there's nothing much to wear, and they aren't at all affected by weather. But some people think they aren't quite as effective. I've got roller brakes (and hub gears) on a bike I hardly ever ride. And I think they're fine.

A bit of searching finds that the 2022 Gazelle Esprit did indeed have roller brakes, though gears listed as "3,7" which is confusing. The info on the link you gave is wrong - it says "rim brakes". It seems there are a few versions of the Gazelle Esprit. At that price though I would say it's good value, especially with built in lights. I don't know what the terrain is like in Darlington (I'm in slightly hilly Leeds) but hub gears are probably OK in flattish territory.

So if you're going to get a Gazelle Esprit, or a similar bike, check carefully:

1. Is it really hub gears?

2. Does it have roller brakes (sometimes called hub brakes), disc brakes or rim brakes?

As I say, some people think roller brakes are the ultimate low maintenance brakes, for "city" type riding. I think I agree. The only caveat is that most bike shops won't be used to working on them, on the rare occasions they need attention. Whereas they should be used to disc brakes. And you almost certainly can't change the brakes on a bike like that, because there won't be mountings for disc or rim brakes.

wheelreason

Are you storing the bike in an outdoor shed? could be the chain and cables rusting.

This Wreckage

Thanks for that. The bike I linked to has hub gears (according to the over-designed Gazelle website) and roller brakes which I've read are not great on hills. Apparently roller brakes are quite heavy, which I suppose is partly why that bike weighs nearly 19kg. There's a really fine, more expensive version of the same bike here that has disc brakes and a fabulous belt drive. But it's a thousand pounds which I could stretch to but would be about eight times more than I've ever spent on a bike. I live a really austere life that enabled me to save up my pocket money for a few years... Darlington is a bit hilly, though nothing like, say, Bradford that I visited recently where I saw not a single other cyclist for the entire day I was there. If roller brakes would be okay for the kind of simple, short journeys around town and occasionally in the countryside, then I'd be content with the cheaper model.

This Wreckage

Yes, it's a shed (though I suppose that makes it indoors!). But I keep the derailleur well oiled.

jon c. 

I ride friction so I never have indexing problems. There's something to be said for old school simplicity.

choddo

There shouldn’t be too much to oil on a derailleur. It has 8 pivot points (4 on each end of the arm) which can sometimes benefit from a light oil but mostly it should be dry to avoid accumulating dust and road crud.

Jay Turberville

I was actually going to suggest an internal hub bike as a possibility. You might want to consider a 7 or 8 speed internal hub just to have a bit more versatility down the road.
[edit: Oh - I read further and see that you have.]

Based on your frustration level and situation, I 100% agree that a "Dutch" style bike with an internal gear hub is the way to go. And why not go whole hog with an enclosed chain - something the internal gear hub makes practical.
I personally think that for most people looking for a "practical" bike, inter gear hubs are generally a better option. Enthusiasts generally don't choose them because they are a bit less efficient and enthusiasts are generally willing to spend more money on maintenance or are happy to learn how to do it themselves. I'm the latter type, but I have been thinking about getting an internal gear bike bike ... just because I think they are cool.

The following video gives a nice presentation about the pros and cons in internal gear hubs if you are interested in knowing a bit more.

smd4

Sounds like you bought more bike than you can handle. You just need to get a bike better suited to your needs. An internally geared 3-speed (or more) should be fine and nearly bomb proof.

Don’t give up on cycling because you got the wrong tool for the job.

This Wreckage

I see. I have been oiling the chainrings and the rear derailleur (by which I mean the 7 cogs of varying sizes that the chain is on which probably have their own name), as I thought that would assist in changing gears. If it's not recommended, I'll soap it all off. Doesn't that mean it will go rusty when it gets wet? I haven't oiled the little cogs in the lower mechanism but those get quite filthy and need brushing clean. Another reason I hate derailleurs.

This Wreckage

Thanks for that, I'll take a look.

Jay Turberville

Yeah. You don't want to put oil on those "7 cogs". That's probably why you those "little cogs" get so filthy. But I'll resist the temptation to go over the maintenance points further than that. I edited my previous post after reading some of your further replies and added a link to this video that you might find interesting. The video notes that internal gear hub bikes are perfect for belt drives. Belt drives are even lower maintenance than chains. So that may be something worth considering depending on budget, etc.

This Wreckage

Thank you for that - it's really good that you and others here are so helpful despite my utter ignorance. But I still need to know if the rear cogs, whatever they're really called, and the front chainrings will go rusty if I don't oil them.

One of the bikes I'm considering is belt drive. They're very expensive but, if it's the last bike I ever buy, I suppose that will be okay.

Jay Turberville

I live in a dry climate, so I'm not the best source for rust issues.

People on this forum are very likely to be bike enthusiasts and as such, probably find it hard to not help. Kind of a compulsion really.
If price is an issue, a chain drive on an internal gear hub bike will also be very low maintenance - especially if enclosed and protected from the elements. Also, any bike shop can replace/service a chain in the unlikely event it would need it. When a chain doesn't spend time jumping from gear to gear, it is stressed less and can also be made more robust. So a single enclosed chain could easily last a decade of regular but moderate riding.

This Wreckage

That's good. The cheaper bike I'm thinking of has an enclosed chain.

Jay Turberville

Looks like a fine choice to me. Though I know nothing specific about the brand. BTW, that website says the bike has rim brakes while the photo and the Gazelle website indicate roller brakes front and back. IMO, you want the roller brakes for the low maintenance. The hub is a Shimano Nexus 7 speed or 3 speed. I'd opt for the 7 speed. It isn't that much more and it'll nice if you run into that extra steep hill or headwind. The integrated lights are nice and it seems like they are powered by a dynamo hub. So no batteries to charge or replace. Looks like the whole focus is on low maintenance. Perfect.

choddo

I actually meant the derailleur itself but the cogs (the cassette) definitely don’t need oil. They will always pick up a little from the chain but they have no parts that move relative to each other. They will get slightly rusty if you leave them wet but usually running the chain backwards through a cloth if it’s being stored after going out in a downpour is enough to avoid any problems. I never oil the front chainrings or rear cogs. Oil shouldn’t really be used to avoid rust (wd40 or grease can be but soraying wd40 anywhere in the vicinity of the braking surfaces on a bike is a bad idea so I don’t do that either) but rather to lubricate metals that move against each other, e.g. the plates in the chain as it goes around a cog.

A mate taught me a neat little trick for getting those two little jockey wheels clean. Get a rag and carefully press a small bit of it against the exposed side of the rotating wheel/cog with a fingernail and rotate the pedal backwards. It will peel off any crud on there really nicely.

dedhed

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Russ Roth

Can always put a hook in the ceiling, make sure its in a joist, and use a rope. Tie one end to the handlebars the other to the saddle, nice thing about that is the hook takes up no space and you can always hang a plant from it, the rope stores in a drawer, and the bike can be worked on indoors.

Writing up what goes into adjusting a der and actually doing the work are two separate things. It sounds like a lot but its just being descriptive.

From reading through this it does sound like you'll be happier with the internal, 7sp is a great way to go. There can still be a touch of adjustment on the shifting over time, but it really is just turning a barrel adjuster. There's usually a pair of lines on the bracket at the hub, in a certain gear, usually the middle one, there's a line that will sit between them,, as long as they line up it just works, its easy but you might need to learn to do it. If you have to remove the rear wheel for any reason, like a flat, you have to make sure they still line up. Its 10x easier but internal doesn't make it maintenance free.
Also, just cause it says shimano, doesn't mean its good, a lot of people make that assumption since shimano is used in the pro peleton and by top MTB racers. Unfortunately a lot of bikes come with their tourney line of parts, of which there are several levels of quality starting at bad and only getting worse. In MTB there's altus above them which does work nicely as a general group but still a long way from top of the line, and in the road world there's claris which barely functions well IMHO though also still a long way from top quality.

alcjphil

There are 2 things that come to mind for me. First, good quality derailleurs are not unreliable. I used to commute to work, a 60 km round trip that I used to do 5 days a week, up to 9000 km per year in Montreal where winters can be quite long. Maintaining a bike with a derailleur consists mostly of keeping the chain relatively clean, adjustments are fairly rare, usually only needed when changing worn out cables, cassettes, and chains. I used to have to change chains about 3 times per year, cassettes once per year and cables about once every 2 years(downtube shifters). This notion that shifting goes out of adjustment after a couple of months of use sounds odd to me and makes me wonder about the way the OP is operating their bike.

Next, another point is about the bike itself. Nowadays, 7 speed rear shifting is relegated to lower quality bikes. I do own a bike that has 7 speed shifting, but it was a high quality bike when it was built back in the early 1980's. It's shifting is reliable and predictable, but it was probably a $1000+ bike 40 years ago. The OP's bike looks like the sort of thing you would buy in a discount department store. I bought my first derailleur equipped bike in 1972 and I rode it heavily or a couple of years trouble free. However, I bought a much better bike the following year and rode it for the next 27 years until damaging the frame in a road race crash. The derailleur components were transferred to another bike frame where they served me for several more years until I upgraded to more modern shifters. I still own most of those components today and they are still seviceable after well over 30 years of use.