Bad Lag

That little black badge by the valve hole looks FANTASTIC!

Overall, a seriously excellent bike. What size/model are the tires?

RiddleOfSteel

Thanks! It's a very classy touch by H Plus Son on these rims. Fun, lovely details.

Tires are Grand Bois (company) Cypress (model) 700x30mm. They actually measure pretty true to the height, perhaps just a touch under. Width, thanks to the wider rims, is 32-33mm. I have all the specs on things buried in my "Stats" post as well as other posts. It's a lot to look through, so peruse if you wish, and at your own pace.

rccardr 

Great write up and a super set of wheels. Have built up several sets of DA hubs to TB14’s and each pair is a pleasure to ride.

due ruote 

Beautifully done. Very tasteful. But what happens if you get thirsty?

Steelman54 

I built up these same rims for a Waterford build last year, for my purposes been very happy with them. Solid rims and the polish look is simply great. For whatever its worth, I'd have replaced the spokes unless I knew there was low mileage on them; otherwise, great writeup.

speedevil 

I have built two sets of wheels using TB14 rims, polished silver with the machined brake track. They are superb rims, if a little heavier than some. Flat, round, and they build and true easily. The two sets I built have not needed any truing in the 3-4 years after I built them. If I was building another box section clincher wheetset for a classic steel bike, I would choose these rims without a second thought.

My next set of wheels will use White Industries T11 hubs, H+Son Archetype rims, and DT Swiss DB Competition black spokes. Silver nipples just for sparkly fun.

RiddleOfSteel

Thank you!

Thank you! You know, I sometimes wonder if, when I had the bike in for repairs and mild modifications, I should have requested two bottle cage mounts. It would have looked a bit weird though. At present, for longer rides, I mount a TT-style twin bottle cage setup that mounts off the back of the seat post. It's clean, even aero ()! Most importantly, it doesn't scratch the paint because it doesn't mount as a clamp around any frame tube. I've entertained the idea of hanging a pair of bottle holders off the front of the handlebars a la very vintage bikes, but the modern ones stick them much too high, and finding vintage ones is difficult. I really like the idea, so maybe I will devise a method or mount myself to get them where I want them.

Thank you. I went back and forth a little on the spokes, knowing their age. Not knowing their mileage, but knowing mine (and my storing indoors situation), and knowing their overall condition, I took the chance. I set an "escape route" with myself, deciding that if the spoke threads looked bad then I would have to replace spokes. The threads were immaculate. I may yet replace them at some point to drop a little weight and (really) gain some extra compliance.

Glad you are another satisfied TB14 owner. I do like the Archetypes, I just don't know what bike I'd build them for. They're like a much bolder Mavic CXP33.

RiddleOfSteel

So we're in full numbers break down mode over here. Like I had stated, I wanted to list the weights of individual wheel components and see what we were looking at. Specifically, I wanted to see how heavy the current spokes are and what weight savings could be had by running DT Swiss Revolution (2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0) and Competition (2.0 - 1.8 - 2.0) spokes like I have on a few other builds. I calculated the spoke weight by averaging all the weights after adding and then dividing them. I know there are variances in spoke length, but it is so minor that it is inconsequential--so, 6.2 to 6.3g a spoke let's say. The brass nipples weigh 1g each, so that is used. Some weight listings, like for the 7400 hubs, I had to research. There is some float or fudge in online reported numbers as well as my reconciling slight differences. Maybe we put a +/- 10g disclaimer on my extrapolated theoretical rim builds.

[Note on DT Swiss spokes: 32 Revolutions would be employed for the front wheel, and a 16/16 split between Revolution and Competition (used on the drive side) would be employed in the rear]

Let the approximation begin:

TB14 front: 507g......7400 hub front: 145g.......Nipples: 32g.......Spokes: 196g/32.......FRONT TOTAL: 880g
TB14 rear: 503g.......7400 hub rear: 360g........Nipples: 32g.......Spokes: 206g/32.......REAR TOTAL: 1101g

Wheelset Weight 0: 1981g

Approximate current spoke weight: 6.3g
DT Swiss Competition spoke weight: 6.45g (calculated, 292mm length)
DT Swiss Revolution spoke weight: 4.8g (calculated, 292mm length)

Theoretical wheel weight savings - front: 42.4g.......NEW FRONT TOTAL: 838g
Theoretical wheel weight savings - rear: 26.8g........NEW REAR TOTAL: 1074g
Theoretical new Wheelset Weight 0: 1912g

Low 1900g range, nice! We're getting there (aka lower)...

Velocity A23 (23mm wide): 450g
Pacenti Brevet (23mm wide): 455g (Rene Herse/Compass)
Mavic CXP33 (20mm wide): 460g (reported avg, previous build of mine employing these rims)

Brevet for TB14 front weight savings: 52g.......NEW NEW FRONT TOTAL: 786g
Brevet for TB14 rear weight savings: 48g........NEW NEW REAR TOTAL: 1026g
Theoretical new new Wheelset Weight 0: 1812g

Around 1800g is what I consider a decently light wheelset for someone of my size and weight, so this makes me excited. DT Swiss spokes are readily available, but 32-hole Pacentis are sold out everywhere.This means that at present, this build is not possible. Thinking about it, if I'd go to all that trouble and money to drop 169g--a non-trivial number certainly--I may just want to see what else is at my disposal that I could build the "ideal classic-looking wheelset" in lightest, practical form.

Enter my 7700-era Dura-Ace hub set. Bought a year or two ago at Bike Works for not a lot. They spin very well, are actually 32-hole, and just need a touch of polishing to be 100%. Great find for $40 or so (and now people care about them, so they're worth a lot more). 7800 and 7900 still offered traditional "silver" (anodized, not polished), but they start walking up in price pretty quickly. They also drop some grams out of the rear pretty well (but add a few in the front?...).

Aaaaanyway, how about we run the numbers on a light, pretty, traditional, shiny theoretical wheelset that doesn't cost a bazillion dollars:

Brevet front: 455g.......7700 hub front: 118g.......Nipples: 32g.......Spokes: 154g/32.......FRONT TOTAL: 759g
Brevet rear: 455g........7700 hub rear: 312g........Nipples: 32g.......Spokes: 180g/32.......REAR TOTAL: 979g
Theoretical Ideal Classic Yet Light Wheelset Weight 0: 1739g

I may just have to build this up! But first, more BB work...

repechage

Not cheap but I kind of appreciate the Pacenti Brevet rim look and weight, 450 grams +/-15grams, but $80. US each...
Looks like they might have less of a brake track height.

RiddleOfSteel

The Brevet was one of the two rims to come to mind when I initially began this journey (Post #1 ). $80 is fine to me for a pretty, wider, capable and light new rim in a (now) niche look (everybody is into black/carbon, disc, and deep dish), but there simply aren't any 32-hole versions available. 28- and 36-hole sure, but 32s are all sold out. And Pacenti's supply/restock timeline has been slow and/or iffy for a number of years. Can't buy or build 'em if they don't exist, you know?

Classtime 

Santa delivered a pair of 36 hole polished TB14s and I put them on my '79 Competition G. S. and while it is no 74 Paramount, it was as pretty with the black, chrome , and polished alloy. The rims have since moved onto some Lowly Normandy hubs and latched onto my 74 Grand Jubile. They have transformed 25 and 28mm Continental GP4000s. Next stop I think will be some 7400 FW hubs and they will go on my new TREK 620..

p.s. RiddleOfSteel , I don't dont know your Covid Situation but, before you take your spoke wrench to perfect your wheels, consider backing off the spokes and rotating the hubs so a parallel pair flank the valve stem. You can't live 30 years dealing with that. 💕

RiddleOfSteel

Competition G.S.'s are plenty nice, especially in black! Don't get too down on it.

I have chosen my battles with the valve stem alignment, ease of rim transfer, and "Dura-Ace" text-to-valve stem alignment. I could get the parallel spokes, but at the cost of the "Dura-Ace" being at some random angle. That is something I can not live with for 30 years. I will do my best to keep your tip in mind if/when at some point I change spokes. Airing up the tires is still easy, so I'm not bothered.

Dfrost 

My 650B wheels (used sometimes on the Marinoni) have Pacenti Brevet rims, and 700C sets for both bikes are tb14’s. I was actually waiting for a set of 700C Brevets when they were first announced. But several manufacturing delays drove my decision. And BTW, I went to some trouble and expense to special order a 28H tb14 to go with the NOS 600 tricolor 28H front hub that came my way.

The brake tracks aren’t noticeably different between the two brands, and I’d call the rim quality and build ease equivalent. The weight difference between tb14 and Brevet is probably due to the Brevet spoke ferrules being single-wall, so spoke loads don’t carry up to the second surface, assuming that those double-wall tb14 ferrules actually do distribute spoke loads. OTOH, the Brevets are tubeless compatible. All of mine have been reliably true from the start.

If one wanted seriously light wheels, start with the tires and tubes. Go tubeless (if you’re willing to deal with all that entails!), or at least use EL tubes in smaller section EL tires. Use aluminum nipples, much lower spoke counts, and shorter spokes (radial and 2X). But calling tb14’s “such heavy wheels” seems like quite an overstatement.

Before the tb14’s, I used OpenPro and Open4CD rims with smaller 26 and 28mm tires (all Grand Bois or Compass), even aluminum nipples on the front, so the wheels were clearly lighter, especially out at the periphery. When I switched to the heavier tb14 rims and 32mm (also GB or Compass) tires, I did NOT notice the difference other than the nicer ride and more confident handling. FWIW, I’ve also had some Velocity Synergy rims with Grand Bois Cypres tires on a Rivendell at the same time as the other two bikes listed, and spent many 36-mile bike commutes considering differences, including swapping wheels and tires between bikes. In every case, qualities of each bike frame FAR over-shadowed any effects of wheel weight.

As @RiddleOfSteel knows (and he does know me and these bikes well), I choose to go with long-term reliable wheels like those he’s built here. These days, I am a fan of DT Revolutions everywhere except rear DS, always 3X. That 28-spoke front is nice on its kind of unique hub, but who actually counts spokes after a wheel is done?

repechage

I like 32 or 36. Prefer 32, but there has always been a slight cost increase, well way back anyway.
Tires are definitely a primary factor.
I wont be going tubless. Light tubes, yes.
I have a set of Soma Supplevitesse SL tires, 28mm 204,208 grams each. (pretty close mfg tolerances)
They ride well, not tubulars, will no doubt will wear and puncture like a tubular- but pretty darn light.
Easier to fix. Avoid sidewall damage... the price of performance.
If I felt more flush, I would buy tubolito tubes... 37grams each!
With rim strip now near the weight of a Clement 250 seta.

Caliwild

Yes, mine are polished... they still look brand new after many miles... My wheel builder commented on how well they are made (and easy to build with).

Thank you! Are your TB14s polished as well, or did you go dark anodized or black? Can't loose with any of them really.

RiddleOfSteel

Second and third test-ish ride update:

The Grand Bois tires have that Compass-esque wobbly hot dog motion when you're rolling down the road. No matter how much I 'true' the tire, some just do that, and the Grand Bois' do that. Drives me nuts. They also exacerbate a slight out-of-true portion of the front rim under braking. Which I've re-trued. But still, it persists, and very noticeably so. I have never encountered a rim that causes that much brake pulsing when it is only barely out of true. Baffling, and very irritating.

So I'm back to the Soma Supple Vitesse EX (all these tires I buy used for cheap at Bike Works) "33mm" tires, which I liked before, and I still really like! They spin dead straight (what a concept!), are about 25g lighter each (measured), and introduce different dampening characteristics that work more in concert with the TB14s than the Grand Bois'.

Add to that two more BB spindle setup changes--with the assorted shifter-and-triple-FD-tuning struggles, and it's been a busy, somewhat trying couple of days getting the Paramount sorted. I let the 7803 front derailleur and the 7803 left shifter sit overnight and think about what poor teammates they were being with the chain, shift cable, and tripleized crankset. They had a discussion and in the morning the bike shifted into and out of all three rings satisfactorily.

It's stuff like this that reminds you and reminds me that bikes can be and often are a progression. We have the goal in mind, and know how to put all the pieces there. And most of the time it all falls into place. Other times, not so much. I grumble at having to redo something twice, something that I think I don't need to be redoing, but it ain't gonna fix itself. So here I am. Perks of being laid off, perhaps. But then, the struggle in solitude directly effects the mental and emotional state. Live by the tune, die by the tune.

The bike still absolutely rails turns with these rims though. Bigger tires on a big, heavier frame and it's a non-event.

I'll get there...

merziac

I simply don't know how you manage to outdo yourself time after time, this is fabulous, looks absolutely smashing and is without a doubt one of the coolest veteran Paramounts anywhere, period.

RiddleOfSteel

Thanks, man! This is--I am very sure--her final form, apart from perhaps a future spoke set replacement, which is a bridge I will cross when I eventually get there, though not a moment too soon, haha. I am very satisfied with the composition, and will maintain her regal nature and rideable status among other veteran Paramounts for the foreseeable future.

*****

I failed to mention on my two test rides last night (along my test ride loop), there is a mild 3-4% grade for about an eighth of a mile that comes after a mirrored descent of roughly the same angle. It's usually a big ring, out-of-saddle affair that serves to show me 1) how strong I am feeling 2) if my left DT shift lever is tight enough (doesn't slip under frame flex) 3) how strong is or simply what does the wheelset feel like in big, smooth, power pulses at a high-ish speed. A mushier wheel and tire combo is something you will feel in flex or seeming deflection. Even with big tires and a big bike, the TB14s did not give, and thus it did not feel like I was pushing/losing energy into the ground. It was just a big smooth flywheel feel, fully focused on moving forward. That is a great feeling.

noglider 

I got burned by that batch of defective Pacenti rims so I'd hesitate before buying another even if people say the problems are solved. I got a partial warranty replacement from Velomine where I bought the rims, and they sold me a TB14. That is an excellent rim, and it's really not heavy for what it is.

It's interesting how you comment on lateral stiffness. I'm small and weak enough that I can barely make a rear wheel deflect, but I imagine it's important for bigger riders.

Overall, good job and good choice of components. I'm a part-time bike mechanic, and I like to use sensible materials with conservative methods (like 3x spoking). So you checked all the boxes.

merziac

Sounds like you and the Paramount are back to full active duty, good to hear.

RiddleOfSteel

Thank you!

Looking back, my use of 'deflection' should have been more 'deformation' or something that connotes the rim becoming more oval or squished (when viewed from the side) when really worked on when pedaling hard out of the saddle. Deep section wheels as we know have none of this deformation capability, and TB14s also possess great rigidity. Sometimes lateral deflection or movement (into the brake pad) happens on some wheels, but that is a rare occurrence. These wheels won't ever.

noglider 

Well I have made my rear wheel deflect to the side while climbing. Maybe I'm not so weak? I've never heard of ovalizing wheels from torque, but I'm not saying I don't believe you.

mechanicmatt

I'm curious, are Sun CR18's out of favor now a days? I thought they were a light nice box design.

noglider 

I still like them. They're a little heavier, but since they're cheaper, they're a good choice, too. I think all the rims in current production are better than the ones I built up in the 1980s.

RiddleOfSteel

I have no idea, but it's hard to beat the beauty of a TB14 or Pacenti, especially when the quality backs it up (TB14 for sure). The CR18 is a good rim, and I've had a set built up. At 611g vs 500 for the TB14, that's a massive difference. Yes, the CR18 is a touring rim and a good one, but I'm not looking to go super slow or haul 200 lbs somehow, so lighter yet still plenty strong does the trick.

The other factor for me is the profile. If you like the MA2 or MA40 etc, then you'll like the TB14 or Pacenti. They are just so pretty. The CR18 has chamfers in it and a tall brake track, both of which add to the visual bulk and busy/semi-tech look. Neither of those things was I going for. The Sun M13 II is perhaps a truer comparison in dimension to the vintage wheels, and I've rim swapped a black one on an old Ross (replaced the soft Rigida 1320 on it from factory). 20mm wide, with a nice profile. they are chamfered at the shoulders, but its soft and their polished finish looked great. I can't find weight specs. The TB14s have the look, the finishes, the price, the profile, and build really well. It's a tough combo to beat.