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Training Structure - Gym and Track Emphases

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Training Structure - Gym and Track Emphases

Old 09-28-15, 07:22 AM
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Training Structure - Gym and Track Emphases

Folks,

I'm sorting out my training blocks for the next year or so, and was curious how you all arrange your training emphases between the gym and the track. For example, in my last training block I was working on leg speed on the track, and hypertrophy in the gym. Results were fairly meh. Legs are bigger and faster, but nothing spectacular.

A mate of mine (who has a similar physiology knowledge base, and experience as a sprinter) suggested similar emphases on between the two modes. Hypertrophy in the gym + speed endurance on the track, for example.

Going forward I was looking at doing blocks of Strength/Speed and Strength/Speed Endurance weather permitting. Programming wise: 3 sets of 5s in the gym with 85+%RM loads in the first with Flying 100m, 150ms efforts. Second block would be 3x3 at 87+%RM loads and 250-500m efforts. The gym work will be variants of push/pull/combo days utilizing barbell back squats, deadlifts, Straight leg (Romanian) deadlifts, Cleans (various starting positions), Snatches (various positions), Overhead squats, and some other accessory lifts.

These blocks fit in to my annual plan as off-season training. General strength makes EVERY athlete better, and the sprint speed should be beneficial for most track racers. When the spring rolls around I'll kill all my speed with volume, and work on enduro training.

Appreciate any thoughts or comments! Thanks!
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Old 09-29-15, 02:07 AM
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Wait...are you talking about doing Gym+Track two-a-days in the winter? You'll be burnt out before April.

Also, why are you doing max speed training efforts in the fall/winter? (assuming that you are in the US). Typical programs reserve this period for relaxing, weight loss, and/or gaining base strength.
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Old 09-29-15, 07:34 PM
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How much/how often were you lifting when you got your 'meh' results?

Under your new program are you proposing to ramp up the efforts?

I had an off and on season concentrating on heavy weights. The end result was very little gain. After that season, I moved focus from strength to short bunch racing with a leaning towards kilo type training. Less weight, more reps, more plyo explosive stuff = good gains especially and surprisingly in the sprint area. During the season I hardly did any gym work. This season, I started with the same gym type work, but for the last 2 months I've dropped weights altogether in favour of on the bike/trainer efforts. Yet to see how that goes, but our season is about to begin, so we'll see soon enough.

If you were getting heavily into weights before and you got no results, and you are proposing to do the same again, don't beat a dead horse. It can take time for some to see, but weights is not the be all and end all of sprinting. Your body may have different responses, so heavy weights may not be your answer. Prepare to be dynamic in your training approach, but also make sure you give any training change time to prove itself beneficial or not.
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Old 09-30-15, 09:31 AM
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Yeah I wouldn't want to be doing flying 100-200s all year round. If its off season with a big gap before any competition (4+ months) I would drop those for now and just work on strength for a while, maybe some endurance mixed in to keep you on the bike. Not that you can't mix speed and strength work, and not that you should spend all winter without a single hard session on the bike, but I would balance it differently.

Max efforts require a lot of physical and psychological burning. roadies can run tempo all year as thats what humans were designed for, if you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
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Old 09-30-15, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
Yeah I wouldn't want to be doing flying 100-200s all year round. If its off season with a big gap before any competition (4+ months) I would drop those for now and just work on strength for a while, maybe some endurance mixed in to keep you on the bike. Not that you can't mix speed and strength work, and not that you should spend all winter without a single hard session on the bike, but I would balance it differently.

Max efforts require a lot of physical and psychological burning. roadies can run tempo all year as thats what humans were designed for, if you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
Hahahaha! That's my new signature.

You should print up some t-shirts (sized up to XXL pls )
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Old 09-30-15, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Wait...are you talking about doing Gym+Track two-a-days in the winter? You'll be burnt out before April.

Also, why are you doing max speed training efforts in the fall/winter? (assuming that you are in the US). Typical programs reserve this period for relaxing, weight loss, and/or gaining base strength.
No, not two-a-days! I can't make that work with my schedule, for better or worse. I'm thinking in more broad terms. For the first time in a couple years, I'm not planning any body mass changes. If anything, I might try to get a little bigger. I'm sitting at ~168lbs now, which is a good compromise between surviving road races, rolling crits and track races.

I'm working on max speed now because I can't work out a better time to fit it in to my season training. The spring is going to HAVE to be aerobic fitness. I know maximal strength is hard to lose, and max speed should be easier to regain than aerobic fitness (which is borderline all-time low for me right now). Speed work on the track in the fall; start killing that off with ski touring and endurance/tempo riding over the winter; do some recovery and more speed work in January/February; more aerobic work in early spring tapering in to racing in May-July. In season training will be mostly recovery with just enough stress to maintain results. I hope.

Alternatively, I don't want to screw up my strength training by adding a bunch of endurance training and base miles, which would be my alternative. It only seems logical to try and maximize each block by adding in complementary training goals.

Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
How much/how often were you lifting when you got your 'meh' results?

Under your new program are you proposing to ramp up the efforts?

I had an off and on season concentrating on heavy weights. The end result was very little gain. After that season, I moved focus from strength to short bunch racing with a leaning towards kilo type training. Less weight, more reps, more plyo explosive stuff = good gains especially and surprisingly in the sprint area. During the season I hardly did any gym work. This season, I started with the same gym type work, but for the last 2 months I've dropped weights altogether in favour of on the bike/trainer efforts. Yet to see how that goes, but our season is about to begin, so we'll see soon enough.

If you were getting heavily into weights before and you got no results, and you are proposing to do the same again, don't beat a dead horse. It can take time for some to see, but weights is not the be all and end all of sprinting. Your body may have different responses, so heavy weights may not be your answer. Prepare to be dynamic in your training approach, but also make sure you give any training change time to prove itself beneficial or not.
Last block was 3x10s on Squats and Deadlifts with 3x5s on Cleans and Snatches + a few accessory lifts. I was lifting 2-3 days a week, pull, push, combo. The weights were ~75, 80 and 85% of estimated 1RM scaled for the set/rep scheme. I was alternating that with flying laps in easy gears and recovery rides on the road to bring the cadence up. I pissed away a lot of muscle in the racing season, and it looks like most of it came back during this last month. Max RPMs got up to 157, in an 80" gear, without much improvement in normal racing gears (~130-140rpm in 90"). I turned 192 on rollers a while back. Need to test again on those and see if anything changed.

Next two blocks are 3x5s, and 3x3s, going up to 95% and 3RM for respective peak weeks. So a different loading scheme with similar exercise selection. My estimated 1RM back squat is ~1.3x body mass, so I'm pathetically weak. Which is probably why I'm not getting much response to anything strength/power related.
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Old 10-01-15, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Hahahaha! That's my new signature.

You should print up some t-shirts (sized up to XXL pls )

haha there are some cheetahs at the Toronto zoo, and Ive never seen them do anything more than this

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Old 10-01-15, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by JimiMimni View Post
No, not two-a-days! I can't make that work with my schedule, for better or worse. I'm thinking in more broad terms. For the first time in a couple years, I'm not planning any body mass changes. If anything, I might try to get a little bigger. I'm sitting at ~168lbs now, which is a good compromise between surviving road races, rolling crits and track races.

I'm working on max speed now because I can't work out a better time to fit it in to my season training. The spring is going to HAVE to be aerobic fitness. I know maximal strength is hard to lose, and max speed should be easier to regain than aerobic fitness (which is borderline all-time low for me right now). Speed work on the track in the fall; start killing that off with ski touring and endurance/tempo riding over the winter; do some recovery and more speed work in January/February; more aerobic work in early spring tapering in to racing in May-July. In season training will be mostly recovery with just enough stress to maintain results. I hope.

Alternatively, I don't want to screw up my strength training by adding a bunch of endurance training and base miles, which would be my alternative. It only seems logical to try and maximize each block by adding in complementary training goals.



Last block was 3x10s on Squats and Deadlifts with 3x5s on Cleans and Snatches + a few accessory lifts. I was lifting 2-3 days a week, pull, push, combo. The weights were ~75, 80 and 85% of estimated 1RM scaled for the set/rep scheme. I was alternating that with flying laps in easy gears and recovery rides on the road to bring the cadence up. I pissed away a lot of muscle in the racing season, and it looks like most of it came back during this last month. Max RPMs got up to 157, in an 80" gear, without much improvement in normal racing gears (~130-140rpm in 90"). I turned 192 on rollers a while back. Need to test again on those and see if anything changed.

Next two blocks are 3x5s, and 3x3s, going up to 95% and 3RM for respective peak weeks. So a different loading scheme with similar exercise selection. My estimated 1RM back squat is ~1.3x body mass, so I'm pathetically weak. Which is probably why I'm not getting much response to anything strength/power related.
I don't know, man. I think that any speed work you do 8-9 months from the *beginning* of the season and like 11 months from the heart of the season, will simply be wasted time. Max Speed is the fastest to train up and the fastest to detrain, in my opinion. Use that time for something else.

Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
haha there are some cheetahs at the Toronto zoo, and Ive never seen them do anything more than this

There's the pic for your t-shirt.

Do you accept PayPal?
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Old 10-01-15, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
haha there are some cheetahs at the Toronto zoo, and Ive never seen them do anything more than this


Love it ! -- thats how i feel half the time
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Old 10-01-15, 10:58 AM
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That's a leapard. This is a cheetah.
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Old 10-01-15, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
That's a leapard. This is a cheetah.
Why you gotta spoil the fun?

See, David, this is what we mean by, "You are too smart for your own good."
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Old 10-01-15, 06:11 PM
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Not smart, I just watch a lot of youtube nature stuff with my four year old. I'm now a big cats expert.
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Old 10-01-15, 07:21 PM
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Your training plan in the gym reads like a kilo rider come sprinter. The rest of your training reads like a strong track enduro rider. If you're going to apply yourself so hard in training, IMO you'd be better off picking one or the other and smashing it out.

Originally Posted by JimiMimni View Post
I pissed away a lot of muscle in the racing season
This is a defining statement from you IMO. During the racing season, you should be able to maintain what you have built up in the off season with racing and some maintenance gym and bike training. The fact that you lose all that muscle to me means that you don't need it for the racing that you're doing.

You can be a fast sprinter and good track enduro by doing less base miles, less endurance training and more short high intensity work. Do a hard bunch ride with a sprint finish that is no longer than 55km/35mi if there's any around. Stop looking at your body mass ratio for lifts as an indicator. Stick with the squats and deads but up it to 4x8-10 for squats and down to 4x6 for deads. Ditch the cleans and snatches and sub in 4x6 box jumps and 4x6 jump squats. Do strength endurance work on the trainer and on the track (500m+). Keep the F200s to a warmup for the strength endurance. You're still training the punch, but not concentrating on it.

That should make you fast all round. You can be competitive at everything. Jack of all trades master of none. When it comes to open competition in any particular discipline, you may find yourself competitive but not the best. It's likely that the people that concentrate on the particular disciplines will leave you behind.
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Old 10-02-15, 02:21 PM
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I'm embarking upon a winter training period myself to give track racing/track training a go as a means of fitness and fun.

When I was a track runner I was a jack of all trades, being very fast but able to keep up with the distance runners on the road.
My coach had me earmarked as a 400M runner but being 5ft 7in put pay to that.

For the past few months I've been trying out sprints on my fixie, short fitness rides. I found I put on a ton of muscle on my lower body very quickly, it became a problem as my work trousers were getting so tight. With my all round ability I assume the Kilo would suit me best.

Our basic winter training consisted of a weekly run of around 6 miles with around 10 short efforts, intervals (pyraminds of 100, 200, 300, 400 or 4 sets of 400m) and a session of around 8 x 100M sprints.

My plan was to do the following up until xmas and see how I go from there:
1. 100m sprint intervals with 30 secs rest - 4-8 efforts
2. endurance ride around my local park 2.43 miles
3. 1-2 days weight training (squats, deads, dips (upper body))
So I might do session 1 on mondays, weights on wednesday and session 2 on friday. Then add in another weight session on a weekend as an optional.
I tried 4 days and was too tired and likely overtrained. 3 days should be optimum at my level of fitness??
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Old 10-02-15, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by jt_uk View Post
I'm embarking upon a winter training period myself to give track racing/track training a go as a means of fitness and fun.

When I was a track runner I was a jack of all trades, being very fast but able to keep up with the distance runners on the road.
My coach had me earmarked as a 400M runner but being 5ft 7in put pay to that.

For the past few months I've been trying out sprints on my fixie, short fitness rides. I found I put on a ton of muscle on my lower body very quickly, it became a problem as my work trousers were getting so tight. With my all round ability I assume the Kilo would suit me best.

Our basic winter training consisted of a weekly run of around 6 miles with around 10 short efforts, intervals (pyraminds of 100, 200, 300, 400 or 4 sets of 400m) and a session of around 8 x 100M sprints.

My plan was to do the following up until xmas and see how I go from there:
1. 100m sprint intervals with 30 secs rest - 4-8 efforts
2. endurance ride around my local park 2.43 miles
3. 1-2 days weight training (squats, deads, dips (upper body))
So I might do session 1 on mondays, weights on wednesday and session 2 on friday. Then add in another weight session on a weekend as an optional.
I tried 4 days and was too tired and likely overtrained. 3 days should be optimum at my level of fitness??
Welcome to the forum.


1) You should not do sprint intervals on a track bike anywhere but a track. This is unsafe.

2) Training 4 days a week is nothing. You should be able to train 6 days a week easy, on the right program.

3) You don't need to train on your fixed gear.
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Old 10-03-15, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Welcome to the forum.


1) You should not do sprint intervals on a track bike anywhere but a track. This is unsafe.

2) Training 4 days a week is nothing. You should be able to train 6 days a week easy, on the right program.

3) You don't need to train on your fixed gear.
1. I do them by my local park on a quiet residential road with a dead end, I can see the cars coming out at all times. My fixie has brakes.

2. I have no intention of doing more than 4 days , I've been down that training 6-7 days a week for competitions and it yields no rewards. I'm not going to become a National veteran champ or win any titles, so I see no point. Its all about enjoyment and staying fit.

3. I've just had a quote for a new boiler and its going to cost 800 so the fixie is all I can use at present
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Old 10-03-15, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jt_uk View Post
1. I do them by my local park on a quiet residential road with a dead end, I can see the cars coming out at all times. My fixie has brakes.

2. I have no intention of doing more than 4 days , I've been down that training 6-7 days a week for competitions and it yields no rewards. I'm not going to become a National veteran champ or win any titles, so I see no point. Its all about enjoyment and staying fit.

3. I've just had a quote for a new boiler and its going to cost 800 so the fixie is all I can use at present
-And I disagree with Carleton here. Especially if your track bike has a brake, no reason not to train on it. Especially for training starts, nothing beats a track bike on the road if you have limited/no track access. Just ask Jimmy Watkins.
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Old 10-03-15, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by gtrob View Post
if you want to be a cheetah, lay around and lick your paws more.
Just want you to know that I am totally stealing this line. Thank you.

Originally Posted by carleton View Post
2) Training 4 days a week is nothing. You should be able to train 6 days a week easy, on the right program.
This is a bummer for me. My work schedule, as well as type of work (restaurants), prohibits me in a number of ways, from training more than 3 or 4 times a week in any combination of ways. I believe that this has in fact been a big limiter for me in my progression.

Last edited by Jared.; 10-03-15 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 10-03-15, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Jared. View Post
This is a bummer for me. My work schedule, as well as type of work (restaurants), prohibits me in a number of ways, from training more than 3 or 4 times a week in any combination of ways. I believe that this has in fact been a big limiter for me in my progression.
There may be a way. Quinn (Quinn8it here on BF) is a chef and owns (I think) 2 restaurants and trains harder than most and has the jerseys to show for it. I'm not saying that you can. I don't know your situation. But, there is a precedent. I think the key is a home setup (trainer, gym, or something like that). You don't have to do your training at the track.

Last edited by carleton; 10-04-15 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 10-28-15, 06:36 PM
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So what are you Northern Hemisphere guys doing in regards to training now that we are well into Autumn?
Bike work - lighter rides, workin endurance
Gym
Diet - bulking up

Could do with a few pointers etc
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Old 10-30-15, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jt_uk View Post
So what are you Northern Hemisphere guys doing in regards to training now that we are well into Autumn?
Pretty much shut it down after States in July (couldn't swing the trip to Nationals). I lift year round, but it has been the priority since then. Only been riding twice/week... not much intensity, but not coffee rides either. November will be what most people would call base miles I guess. At some point in December, I'll start throwing in just a few intervals so that January isn't a total shock to the system.
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