PeteHski

It’s not that I would run 87 psi with a 30 mm tyre. It’s the fact that there is a lot more margin that inspires confidence. For example I run 30 mm tyres on hooked rims at 65 psi. With hookless rims that would be within 8 psi of max vs 22 psi margin on hooked rims. I just feel more comfortable with the extra margin and don’t really see any meaningful compromise in performance.

Sy Reene

Not that I think ETRTO has a lock on fully understanding everything, but per the same chart referenced earlier, the max PSI for a 30mm tire is supposedly the same as for a 34mm tire, which is 65psi. So, 'officially' you'd be living on the edge with a hookless rim :-)

DaveSSS 

There's always plenty of safety margin included in the published limit values. There has to be, just to cover variations in pressure gauge readings. There is no need to add your own extra safety margin. Using 75 psi instead of 73 isn't going to cause a problem. If your gauge isn't accurate, you could pump up to 70 and really have 65 or 75. I calibrate my gauges against a gauge that's been compared to several other new gauges. You can also buy expensive gauges with guaranteed higher accuracy.

https://www.mcmaster.com/products/pressure-gauges/

PeteHski

I agree with you, but a lot more margin is better if there is no downside, which in this case there isn’t. If I bought a bike that came with hookless wheels then I would be fine with then, but I would always choose hooked rims given a free choice.

eduskator

Yeah, people need to follow the manufacturer's instructions. Period.

jonathanf2

I've been riding my hookless gravel wheels for a few weeks now and I'm completely sold on their benefits...at least for wide tires. They just feel really stiff with great power transfer, especially when doing those seated, high cadence climbs. Also the other day, I slipped in a road crack with the tire being squeezed hard on one side and the bead held strong. Mounting my 38c gravel tires on a 25mm internal width rim was already tough as-is. It would have to be a massive force to blow the bead out of the rim. I'd be curious to see how hookless wheels would handle on a narrow 25/28c tire.

eduskator

If his wheels would have been hooked, this thread would still exist but would have the following title instead : ''Thomas De Gendt no fan of Vittoria''.

Trakhak

Here's a recent video from the Peak Torque YouTube channel, posted a few days ago. The guy who makes the videos for that channel is a bike racer and engineer.

For the video, he calculated the complexity of design requirements and the costs involved in producing a hooked rim versus hookless and the benefits of each design. (Apparently, the main benefit for hookless is the substantial reduction in the cost of the molds.)

DaveSSS 

They work fine if you follow the manufacturer's instructions on rim width and tire pressure. 25mm tires mostly require hookless rims with 21mm IW or less. Most 28mm work with 25mm IW, per manufacturer instructions, but ETRTO says no. I've had no problems with 28 tires on 25mm IW hookless rims. Eventually I'll just use 30mm. My rear tires are all 30.

https://www.sram.com/en/zipp/campaig...-compatibility

tomato coupe

"Thomas De Gendt no fan of gravity."

79pmooney

Fascinating. And, though he never mentions it, a really elegant argument for tubulars. Go to 18:00 on the video and look at his advantages for each, hooked and hookless. Tubulars have all of them. Any pressure that tire can handle. Rim simply isn't a factor. Road damage - as long as the rim is still a hoop, tire stays on. Yes, it does require a good glue or tape job, but we are talking a technology worked out completely 125 years ago. There is no flange that needs to stay more or less intact. No flange - easier and cheaper to make. Lighter. Much simpler from the molding, layup and QC angle. Virtually any tire can be run on any rim.

And yes, I know, such an observation is completely unacceptable here.

Trakhak

Not so much unacceptable as bemusing.

Might become a moot point soon, now that so few of the European pro teams are still using tubulars. Two? One?

I wonder how long it will be before manufacturers scale back on production. Just like manual transmissions in cars, tubulars won't disappear entirely, of course, since there's going to be a cosplay market for at least another decade or so. (Not referring to you, obviously. But most of the comparatively few riders on tubulars use them on vintage bikes that they ride only occasionally, it appears, doing most of their miles on more modern bikes.)

Sy Reene

I think he also mentions that hookless issues would be solved by simply building the tires with steel beads. Oh, and bringing a hydraulic tire press with you on your ride for when you flat.

phrantic09

I just have a hard time believing that any cyclist that’s going to go out and spend 1000+ on a set of wheels or get stock hookless on a new bike isn’t going to do exactly this, especially if they buy from an LBS. And if their LBS doesn’t point them in the right direction, that’s just shameful.

Dave Mayer

The tubular advantage: yes, it is obvious from the perspective of weight, impact and pinch flat resistance, manufacturing ease and cost, blowout safety etc., tubulars are superior in every respect. The advantage is in the rims, not the tires. You eliminate the hooks that are the cause of most of the problems with clinchers.

Yes, there are rolling resistance tests that show that some tubeless tires and clinchers (with latex tubes) roll a trivial amount of watts faster than tubular tires with butyl tubes (an unfair comparison), but there are tubeless tubulars that should bring both tire technologies in line. But again, rolling resistance is tiny in the grand scheme of things, unless we're comparing slow farm tractor tires (32mm pumped to 60psi) vs. much faster narrow tires pumped to an appropriate 110 psi.

Nevertheless, I can accept that tubulars are an almost non-existent market for the following reasons:

• One: your weekend warrior does not need the performance and safety advantages offered by tubulars, and should opt for the lower fuss of clinchers.
• Two: the pros (in every discipline) absolutely should be riding tubulars in every race on every stage, but the pro circuit exists to sell stuff, whether lotteries, jeans or bike stuff. Since you cannot sell tubulars to weekend warriors, the pros are forced to ride on an inferior tech (hookless) for marketing purposes. And when their tire blows off, personally accept all blame for the resulting carnage.

PeteHski

I see that the tubular loonies have arrived.

genejockey 

Wasn't that the theme from "The Exorcist"?

Koyote

I ride on most weekdays and weekends, and I’m not interested in tubulars. Is your mind blown?

genejockey 

But do you have a Platinum Card for your ride to the coffee shop?

elcruxio

I've never used tubulars, but what happens if you get a puncture? Dave is such a fan that roadside repairs must be a breeze.

I watched a video tutorial about glueing a tubular tire once and the whole process took a fairly long time and seemed quite esoteric. There may have been a sacrificial goat and cymbals involved at some point...The video was made by Zipp if I recall correctly.

But if the goat lives or you only have access to a pet bunny, is it possible for the tire to roll off the rim when cornering?

tomato coupe

You're truly delusional if you think tubular tires are easier to manufacture and cost less than clinchers.

Dave Mayer

Right on schedule, the industry sycophants, apologists and influencers come out. None of whom have ever used tubulars.

Once again, tubeless and hookless is an attempted kludge a of a solution to the insurmountable advantages of tubulars. Against the frustrating paradox that weekend warriors, the sales target demographic of the bike industry, are not going to buy tubulars due to the preparation fuss, and the chance of getting glue on ones hands. And the riders who really need and want tubulars: high performance riders, get their gear for free. So the industry has zero motivation to flog tubulars.

Tubular rims are considerably easier and less costly to build than clinchers, hookless or otherwise. One continuous piece of carbon fabric folded over on itself: no hooks. So tubular rims can be built lighter and stronger than clinchers. And the tubular rim profile sheds braking heat better than a clincher rim, so carbon tubular rim brake wheels are more viable than clinchers.

This represents another huge performance advantage: carbon clinchers are a no-go due to the chance of overheating the brake track. But this is not as much of a problem with tubulars, so that a rim brake system could be used, avoiding the performance penalty of discs on road bikes (weight).

Again: THE ADVANTAGE OF THE TUBULAR SYSTEM IS THE RIM.

elcruxio

I suppose a great rim design is great and all, but what happens if I flat using tubulars?

And also, are bunnies sufficient? They're much easier to get than goats.

tomato coupe

Yeah, that's how it works. You post your usual silliness, and people respond ... right on schedule. And then they all collect their fat checks from Big Clincher.

choddo

I only have one cycling compadre who still uses tubulars and he spends BY FAR the highest percentage time of all of us not riding his bike when he should be. Only some of this is down to punctures but all the other issues and lack of Campag chainring availability goes with the territory