PeteHski

That is rich coming from someone who totally ignores and dismisses any technical analysis of the cycling myths and conspiracy bs you continually spout. I would be offended if this came from someone with any credibility. But not so much from the forum village eejit.

VeloNewbie

Tha hell has this thread become?!? LMAO

Dave Mayer

Once again, a post with zero information or analysis. Nothing of substance.

When the UCI posts the results of its current review of hookless, then feel free to provide it here so as to provide some useful content.

genejockey 

Note absence of information and analysis in post whining about "zero information or analysis"

genejockey 

PeteHski

Look, I said what I thought about hookless road wheels on page 1 of this thread. I don’t use them or have any intention of buying any. I just pointed out that Hambini is not IMO a source of credible information and analysis that you should be hanging your hat on.

I’m sure that when the UCI do post their conclusions, you will be the first to discredit them if they don’t fit your own armchair narrative.

elcruxio

I get your point. However that video showed us a small tire on a small rim and it still took the full weight of a grown man hopping on the tire to mount it. Hydraulic tire changer makes the job a lot easier, faster and safer for the tire and rim.

The point in the first video was, that if a hookless tire can be mounted tool free, ie. just by pushing with your fingers, it is not tight enough for it to really be safe.

Mounting tires is and should be much easier than taking them off. That is sorta the point why car rims are made the way they are, so that both beads cannot sit in the bead well at the same time. It is possible to take a car tire off a rim without power tools but you just need really long steel levers to do it.

There's one further major difference in car rims I failed to point out in my last reply on the subject. Car rims have a bead shelf (as tubeless has) that isn't level but is in fact an upwards slope (when looking at the cross section of the rim). When the tire is pressurized, the bead will move up that slope stretching itself tighter and tighter against the increasing circumference of the rim until it can't move up anymore. You'll end up with a really tight stretched seal against the rim. That slope is really useful, because it equates out manufacturing tolerances of tires. Some beads might rest a few mm. closer to the outside of the rim and some might rest bit closer to the inside, but they're all stretched against the rim with enough force to keep them in place.

The end result is that the tire should not come off unless the bead snaps (given how beefy the beads are, unlikely) or there's a rapid deflation and high enough sideways force to the tire (eg. cornering with too little pressure). Technically, you shouldn't need the flange on a tubeless car rim. However it's there and it is quite tall because it's a vital safety feature. If a tire does move, the flange stops it from moving too much or jumping off the rim.

Bicycle hookless rims have a bead shelf that's level. Granted, hooked TLR rims also have a bead shelf that's level but they also have a hook. Without a sloped bead shelf the tolerances need to be exact. If the bead circumference is too large and it doesn't seal against the bead shelf it'll have no choice but to seal against the flange, which is not what you want happening. You want that bead stretched tightly against the bead shelf. One problem that comes from the dimensions of bicycle rims is that they're so narrow that you don't really have enough space to create a slope that's gradual enough so that the tire won't just flop off as soon as pressure is released. Or rather road rims have this problem. With wide MTB rims or even fatbike rims you could achieve a proper slope easily.

I have come across one tire rim combo where I am absolutely positive it would have worked totally fine hookless with no safety issues whatsoever. The rim diameter was oversize and the tire undersize. In the end I needed a bench vise to pry the beads off the rim.

I realize that what I wrote above isn't exactly an endorsement for hooked TLR either. However hooked TLR has proven itself to be reliable and safe. The hook does a lot heavy lifting should the tire burp or move for some reason and it'll work as an additional sealing surface if it has to.

choddo

I think he claimed that page was put up by Absolute Black when he was slating their laughably expensive rear mech cage product. Quite possibly some truth in though.

PeteHski

Far more likely to be someone who knows him IRL who he annoyed (easy to imagine based on his YouTube persona). A company would just sue him.

But I would actually agree with him about the ridiculous cost/benefit ratio of oversized rear mech cages 😂

DaveSSS 

The point of the first video was that even using plastic tools to install bike tires means that the tires don't fit tight enough. That engineer has apparently never used a bead jack. He also overlooks tires from Giant that have beads that aren't steel, but pass pressure tests up to 150% of the maximum recommended value.

For those who haven't got an engineering degree, you need to know that most of what you learn is mathematics, most of which you'll never use, along with some useful formulas like the ones that Hambini presented. New developments may make use of these formulas, but it doesn't eliminate their misuse, or the need to test the products made from their application. The engineer in the video is too young to have much real world experience and has probably never tested a new product design in his life. If steel bead reinforcement is the answer, I'd think that it would already have been tried and tested, but who knows? Maybe some accountant decided that a safe but slightly heavier tire would never sell, so testing was never done.

Not all engineers are professional engineers who have passed a series of exams that prove to someone that they understand theory. It doesn't mean you have any experience. I worked on the development of critical nuclear weapons products, but having a PE wasn't a requirement. Experience and ingenuity were the keys.

I've logged over 15,000 miles on hookless rims and tires with zero problems. I've tested my tire and wheel setups to 85 psi, compared to my normal 55 psi needs. I've used early model Michelin tubeless tires that were not approved for hookless. My last one had so much bead stretch after 9 months that the beads would come off the ledge as soon as the air was let out and I couldn't get air back in fast enough with the valve core in place. I took that tire out of service.
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mstateglfr 

The first video you linked was 90min long and you didnt cite the time within the video that should be watch or which comments should be read. So given that, maybe my question below is redundant and already addressed, but I dont realize that because I wasnt willing to spend 90min watching the video while simultaneously combing thur comments. If it is redundant, my apologies.

- you said that the point of the first video was to show that even using plastic tire levers to install bike tires means the tires dont fit tight enough?...so what are we supposed to use to mount tires on bike wheels if using a plastic tire lever means the tires arent tight enough?

DaveSSS 

Go to 32:00 on the video. This was mentioned before my response. The engineer first says that car tires and the like require huge forces from machinery to mount. Then he says that any tire that can be installed with plastic tools will never stay on the rim adequately. How ridiculous. He's not using any of his alleged education. I have to give credit to Giant for developing strong tire beads and testing at 150% of maximum. Enve has gone up to 140 psi to blow off some tires. If ISO really suggests testing at 110%, someone there is really stupid.

What most seem to worry about is riding with no pressure. In that case a tubular is best, but I never have and never will use one. I've ridden hundreds of high speed mountain descents since moving to Colorado in 2003, but it doesn't make me want tubulars. My most frequent winter route takes me up to 50 mph on every ride.



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choddo

They are in Germany

DaveSSS 

A lot my engineering career was spent working on processes to make critical components for the W82 nuclear weapon. No PE required. No PE required for designing construction projects within the 3 million square foot facility either.

choddo

Sure. I’m just saying anyone in Germany calling themselves an engineer has to be professionally qualified. Not true in the UK either. Even people who install residential satellite TV get called engineers here.

elcruxio

Are your arguments really
1) The engineer in question is too young and thus can't know what he's talking about (Ad Hominem)
2) Surely "they" have engineered this stuff to be safe and decided steel beads isn't necessary (appeal to authority I think, but could be wrong)
3) You've had plenty of trouble free miles (survivor bias)
?

If you look at the actual Peak Torque video, which has been linked here earlier, you'll notice said young engineer has thought about this stuff quite a bit. Enough to draw two rim molds just to elaborate why companies want to switch to hookless.

PeteHski

For me the fact that max allowable pressures on hooked tubeless are significantly higher inspires more confidence.

DaveSSS 

My main argument is the stupidity of comparing heavy car and truck tires with exceptionally strong beads and sidewalls to bike tires. They have nothing in common other than hookless rims. He also claims that these tires require huge forces from special mounting equipment to install (not true). Then he concludes that bike tires are too easy to install so they can't be safe.

Testing is the answer. Tire manufacturers should be able to test tire and wheel combinations at pressures that are far above what the heaviest riders need and test at common rotational speeds, with an appropriate weight bearing on the wheel. I've tested my tire/wheel combinations at 150% of the maximum pressure that I actually use (55 psi), but only while stationary, and not weight bearing. To be thorough, tires really need to inflated for a year or two to evaluate bead stretch over time. The Pirelli P-Zero TLR tubeless tires that I use that stretch very little, so yes they have been proven to hold up over time. I used up 6 Michelin tubeless that weren't hookless approved and the reason was obvious - they suffered from bead stretch. I tossed the last one when the bead unseated when the air was let out and couldn't be reseated with valve core in place. If you let the air out of a tire to replenish the sealant and it immediately unseats, I wouldn't keep using the tire.
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I take fairly high risks riding down steep mountain roads at high speeds. I have to be extremely vigilant to avoid road damage and rocks that fall from canyon walls. It's not everyone's cup of tea. I've been doing it since 2003 and never had a tire problem.

Hooked carbon tubeless wheels are readily available and buyers uncertain about hookless should buy those and quit whining about hookless. You're not being forced to use them.

Koyote

This.

I've been riding these for about 1.5 years. An honest 1410 grams including the rim tape, and they hold onto tires like grim death.

Yan 

​​​​​​Don't forget that anyone who buys a complete bike is forced to buy whatever wheelset the manufacturer specs.

genejockey 

If said young engineer hasn't done any actual testing of the actual products, isn't he just engaging in mathematical handwaving?

eduskator

If you buy a new bike that comes equipped with it, yes, in a certain way. I know, you can always change them.

I rode hookless rims for 5 years and my experience has been nothing but positive. Current bike came with hooked wheels. My 28mm tires inflate at 29mm instead of 30mm because of the hook, but I couldn't care less.

PeteHski

I watched the video and these sort of exaggerated comparisons are always a bit lame, but I don't disagree with his general viewpoint. I thought the conspiracy theory was a bit overboard too, but maybe just a bit of dark humour. Highly speculative at best. I've worked closely with tyre manufacturers at the cutting edge of F1 development and even in that field their engineers are incredibly conservative. It was always a battle between the teams and tyre engineers in agreeing what was a safe minimum hot running pressure! Ultimately, major wheel and tyre manufacturers don't want to be facing injury lawyers.

DaveSSS 

Not necessarily. Buyers can always make a deal to change out wheels, unless you're ordering online. You can also sell those wheels as new.

​​​​​I haven't bought a pre-built bike in the last 30 years.

terrymorse 

The "readily available" argument is tenuous when you look at recent bike tech trends. See rim brakes, mechanical shifting, etc. How much longer before hooked carbon rims become a rarity?