Would You Protest?
03-23-09, 04:33 PM
#26
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Don't get me wrong - I agree completely. "Ok" and "most of the time" wasn't meant as an endorsement. It does sucker officials into thinking that they can get away with using chips for results. Like I said, I'm skeptical of the things. I don't really see why they use chips at all. My point was that they should just get a finish line camera and use the damn thing. If nothing else will reliably give you finish order, why use chips at all?
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
03-23-09, 04:41 PM
#28
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How hard is it to pick out the top three? Well that depends on a lot of things (sun position , relative speed of the racers, which racer is on the side of the road that the judges are placed etc) and I have seen national level judges call for a finishline photo to confirm the results. I have also seen said judges change their unofficial visual call based on the photo.
I have talked to numerous judges and they are all of one mind - unless there is no alternative:
a) get an adequate photo finish set up
b) don't use timing chips.
I have talked to numerous judges and they are all of one mind - unless there is no alternative:
a) get an adequate photo finish set up
b) don't use timing chips.
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03-23-09, 04:45 PM
#29
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You will get those "lectures" even if there is no camera. Why - because it is very hard to score a race visually, quickly and accurately if numbers are upside down; in the middle of the back, with a ponytail over part of the number etc etc etc). And, any competent official who has allowed the use of timing chips will still ask for someone to score the race manually - just in case the chip timing equipment fails. Then number placement, rain jackets etc still matter.
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03-23-09, 04:45 PM
#30
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How hard is it to pick out the top three? Well that depends on a lot of things (sun position , relative speed of the racers, which racer is on the side of the road that the judges are placed etc) and I have seen national level judges call for a finishline photo to confirm the results. I have also seen said judges change their unofficial visual call based on the photo.
I have talked to numerous judges and they are all of one mind - unless there is no alternative:
a) get an adequate photo finish set up
b) don't use timing chips.
I have talked to numerous judges and they are all of one mind - unless there is no alternative:
a) get an adequate photo finish set up
b) don't use timing chips.
If people think they're in the money, they'll stick around for the results. Through some deductive reasoning, it's pretty reasonable to expect to get everyone in the money in their correct position.
03-23-09, 04:50 PM
#31
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You make it sound like this is even a question. If the top 3 are even close, like within a bike length, it should go to the camera. Hell, I think they camera-confirm the top 20 positions at some races around here.
If people think they're in the money, they'll stick around for the results. Through some deductive reasoning, it's pretty reasonable to expect to get everyone in the money in their correct position.
If people think they're in the money, they'll stick around for the results. Through some deductive reasoning, it's pretty reasonable to expect to get everyone in the money in their correct position.
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03-23-09, 05:02 PM
#32
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Everything's got good points and bad. When you use a finish line camera, you get to start lecturing racers on number placement, rain jackets, glare, etc. Every timing technology has it's good points and bad. Redundancy would be great, and that's what they do for pro racing, but what amateur racing organization has money for both?
In NM there is a debate about going to chips and from the people who have been in contact with the manufacturers it seems that their precision is not great for a mass finish. It looks like NM is going to be sticking with cameras for the time being.
03-23-09, 07:05 PM
#34
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If nothing else will reliably give you finish order, why use chips at all?
03-23-09, 07:09 PM
#35
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Here in Florida they score 25 deep for the state-wide points series, so it makes sense. But I still think they need a camera. Not that I've ever been in a position to be filmed.
03-23-09, 07:14 PM
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To those that are using chip systems - are you still manually scoring the finish?
03-23-09, 07:29 PM
#37
Making a kilometer blurry
WR: I don't quite know how these timing mats work, but I assume that they spot the time where the sensor is directly over the mat. The signal from the chip will start weak, build to a peak, then decrease. It's a simple algorithm to locate the peak; and where the peak is is where the chip is directly over the mat.
Point is that they probably do only measure linear distance, which means that 0.007s is 3.7" worth of travel at 30mph, which is greater than 2". For 0.007s to be less than 2", your sprint would have had to be less than about 16mph, which seems unlikely. The officials were probably right on this one, I'm afraid. But who knows, which is exactly the point. Timing chip, camera, spotters... just different ways of estimating the finishing order. The officials make the best of the tools they are given.
Congrats on your podium!
Point is that they probably do only measure linear distance, which means that 0.007s is 3.7" worth of travel at 30mph, which is greater than 2". For 0.007s to be less than 2", your sprint would have had to be less than about 16mph, which seems unlikely. The officials were probably right on this one, I'm afraid. But who knows, which is exactly the point. Timing chip, camera, spotters... just different ways of estimating the finishing order. The officials make the best of the tools they are given.
Congrats on your podium!
There are specific rules for positioning the chip (halfway up the fork, facing forward, etc.). These specific rules are a clue that the implementation is likely a "record it exactly when I first see it" method.
A really easy test would be to put two chips on a stick, one at regulation height, and one on the bottom end, hold the stick vertically with the bottom dragging, and walk over a mat. I'll bet the bottom chip will "win" every time.
03-23-09, 09:07 PM
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You did the right thing by protesting. I would have protested, too.
As a promoter I wouldn't use a chip system for picking places-- I've seen *way* too many sprints that are won or lost by a few inches or less. There's too much ambiguity in exactly where the chip measurement gets made relative to the front edge of the wheel. A camera measures the finish correctly and unambiguously-- front of the wheel crossing the line.
As a promoter I wouldn't use a chip system for picking places-- I've seen *way* too many sprints that are won or lost by a few inches or less. There's too much ambiguity in exactly where the chip measurement gets made relative to the front edge of the wheel. A camera measures the finish correctly and unambiguously-- front of the wheel crossing the line.
03-23-09, 11:20 PM
#39
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Congrats on the podium! But... you are right to protest but I don't think it would go anywhere.
This is why I'm ambivalent about using timing chips for races other than TT's and MTB.
Using our Finishlynx we're able to score everyone.
See e.g. https://app.obra.org/results/2009/Road/13821
The camera wasn't set up correctly, but here's the latest close finish that I have on file (from Mar. 1)
This is why I'm ambivalent about using timing chips for races other than TT's and MTB.
See e.g. https://app.obra.org/results/2009/Road/13821
The camera wasn't set up correctly, but here's the latest close finish that I have on file (from Mar. 1)
03-24-09, 04:44 AM
#40
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Sheesh, when I was running track in college many many (ok, one more, many) years ago we had electronic timing and photos for a tight finish...today, I suspect that a sufficiently sophisticated camera is likely available for a low/reasonable cost...for example, here is a soon to be released digital camera with a video/movie mode that has the capability to shoot at 1000 frames per second...
One of my sons does road races with a timing chip...I guess I should be telling him to forget about leaning forward and thrusting out his chest at the tape...instead, kick out/forward the foot/shoe with the timing chip!!!!!
One of my sons does road races with a timing chip...I guess I should be telling him to forget about leaning forward and thrusting out his chest at the tape...instead, kick out/forward the foot/shoe with the timing chip!!!!!
03-24-09, 07:10 AM
#41
Making a kilometer blurry
Congrats on the podium! But... you are right to protest but I don't think it would go anywhere.
This is why I'm ambivalent about using timing chips for races other than TT's and MTB.
Using our Finishlynx we're able to score everyone.
See e.g. https://app.obra.org/results/2009/Road/13821
The camera wasn't set up correctly, but here's the latest close finish that I have on file (from Mar. 1)
This is why I'm ambivalent about using timing chips for races other than TT's and MTB.
Using our Finishlynx we're able to score everyone.
See e.g. https://app.obra.org/results/2009/Road/13821
The camera wasn't set up correctly, but here's the latest close finish that I have on file (from Mar. 1)
03-24-09, 07:15 AM
#42
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I've seen Georgia Cup guys screw up their timing. Last years Perry-Roubaix to be exact. I saw a guy who got lapped by the field credited with the KOM while my teammate who had earned it was given 2nd.
There's a few reasons I won't do another Georgia Cup race, timing issues are just one of them.
There's a few reasons I won't do another Georgia Cup race, timing issues are just one of them.
03-24-09, 08:01 AM
#43
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Timing chips are great for stage races or road/mtb races were getting lapped is possible, but for overall placement, they shouldn't be used.
03-24-09, 08:07 AM
#44
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Sheesh, when I was running track in college many many (ok, one more, many) years ago we had electronic timing and photos for a tight finish...today, I suspect that a sufficiently sophisticated camera is likely available for a low/reasonable cost...for example, here is a soon to be released digital camera with a video/movie mode that has the capability to shoot at 1000 frames per second...
One of my sons does road races with a timing chip...I guess I should be telling him to forget about leaning forward and thrusting out his chest at the tape...instead, kick out/forward the foot/shoe with the timing chip!!!!!
One of my sons does road races with a timing chip...I guess I should be telling him to forget about leaning forward and thrusting out his chest at the tape...instead, kick out/forward the foot/shoe with the timing chip!!!!!
The finishlynx we have goes at 3,000 fps and the new ones that we're considering go up to 10,000 fps. (1,000 pixel height)
Last edited by obra3; 03-24-09 at 08:11 AM.
03-24-09, 08:39 AM
#45
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1F10 makes for a standard of timing and this seems to meet it. It could do with clarification for determining results IMHO. so we move to the queen mother of the finishing rule (Crits and RR):
Hence a good line camera like the lynx is the gold standard.
BUT- if they were to call it a dead heat, they have another more entertaining option:
1P4:
A grudge match drag race. Gotta love that one.
1P. Finish of a Race
1P1. Judging. The finish of a race shall be judged when the front tire first penetrates the imaginary vertical plane passing through the leading edge of the finish line.
1P1. Judging. The finish of a race shall be judged when the front tire first penetrates the imaginary vertical plane passing through the leading edge of the finish line.
BUT- if they were to call it a dead heat, they have another more entertaining option:
1P4:
(c) In road races, should two or more riders make a dead heat for first place only, they shall reride the final sprint for 1,000 meters on road bicycles to determine the winner.
03-24-09, 08:54 AM
#47
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Done that on the track in an Australian Pursuit-- down to me and one other guy exactly across the track, and neither was gaining. They let us go til we were jelly, then made us do a match sprint. I could barely keep the bike upright at the start.
03-24-09, 09:07 AM
#48
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03-24-09, 10:05 AM
#49
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