Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > Masters Racing (All Disciplines)
Reload this Page >

Just hanging out shooting the bull

Notices
Masters Racing (All Disciplines) Race on the track or road or on your mountainbike in the Masters Category? Want to talk tactics, strategy and training with your peers?

Just hanging out shooting the bull

Old 08-25-17, 11:09 AM
  #10926  
Hermes
Version 3.0
 
Hermes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 11,961

Bikes: Too Many

Mentioned: 294 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 292 Posts
Here is an interesting pic of @Racer Ex and @Cleave in a race. One can guess who is passing whom in this pic but to be fair, I have been passed by R Ex in a 2k pursuit in Carson. So the passed by R Ex club is very elite.



This pic offers a chance to compare and contrast the two riders but not to criticize but observe and learn what may work for the individual.

I have somewhat poor neck flexibility. I cannot look up the way R Ex does in the pic. So if I use a lower position, my forward visibility is not great. I did the aero testing at Velo Sports Center and a Retul fit, so I have the optimized position for best aerodynamics and fit.

I can ride the ERO position but I my up road visibility is not great. So I tend to train in a higher position so I can see the traffic and etc ahead. The same is true on the track if there are other racers using the track.

Also, if one brings their arms together, it may cause the head to pop up. Head position is probably the greatest impact on CdA so gains by having the arms together may be offset by the head coming up.

So being able to turtle ones head while having the arms close together may result in a lower CdA.

Control is another major factor in determining speed. The bike goes the fastest when it is going straight and not turning. At the track, slight changes in position in the pole lane scrubs speed. And at VSC, this is even more apparent due to the short radius turns. So if one can keep the arms together, turtle ones head and ride the turns in a constant radius turn, you are there.

Crank length is another interesting discussion. ERO told me that team New Zealand showed up for testing with 155 mm cranks. The only way to know which is faster is to test.

I have found that shorter cranks allow me to stay on top of the gear better. Also, since I have been sprint training, I find I produce more power and spin faster in the ERO position on my pursuit bike than riding on the hoods of my road bike. Likewise if I ride my road bike and do a lot of climbing I will not do well in the ERO position at high cadence on my pursuit bike.
Hermes is offline  
Old 08-25-17, 02:20 PM
  #10927  
Hermes
Version 3.0
 
Hermes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 11,961

Bikes: Too Many

Mentioned: 294 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 292 Posts
To my friends in TX and LA...be safe and try to stay dry.
Hermes is offline  
Old 08-25-17, 02:54 PM
  #10928  
Bandera 
~>~
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: TX Hill Country
Posts: 5,935
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked 150 Times in 99 Posts
Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
To my friends in TX and LA...be safe and try to stay dry.
The 1st bands of Harvey just blew through.
In the spirit of my Gulf coast culture we're as prepared as can be so I'm organizing a Hurricane Party tonight.

Laissez le bon temps rouler!

-Bandera
__________________
'74 Raleigh Internat'l. '77 Trek TX900 FG. '90 Vitus 979. '10 Merckx EMX3. '13 Soma Stanyan
Bandera is offline  
Old 08-25-17, 04:38 PM
  #10929  
revchuck 
OMC
 
revchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 6,919

Bikes: Specialized Allez Sprint, Look 585, Specialized Allez Comp Race

Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 449 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 16 Posts
@Bandera - Thanks for the reminder, I need to buy some more beer.
__________________
Regards,
Chuck

Demain, on roule!
revchuck is offline  
Old 08-25-17, 05:23 PM
  #10930  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,136

Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, CAAD12, Felt DA, Dolan

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 23 Posts
Just got back from HEB. Everybody buying bread, etc. I picked up a 12 and a bag of ice Not supposed to get too bad in SA but from the look of the shelves you would think the end of the world was near. It was insane.

Hermes, interesting pic. Many ways to get it done. TT is new to me, I'm evolving and experimenting quite a bit so it's great to see and hear others thoughts. My last race is early October, going to spend a month or two after that looking at crank length among other things.

The most recent "action" shot I have isn't of much use, although the start is probably the best part of my race
Attached Images
Voodoo76 is offline  
Old 08-25-17, 06:02 PM
  #10931  
Cleave
Old & Getting Older Racer
 
Cleave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 5,338

Bikes: Bicycle Transportation: 2017 Chevrolet Bolt, 2010 Toyota Prius

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Here is an interesting pic of @Racer Ex and @Cleave in a race. One can guess who is passing whom in this pic but to be fair, I have been passed by R Ex in a 2k pursuit in Carson. So the passed by R Ex club is very elite.



This pic offers a chance to compare and contrast the two riders but not to criticize but observe and learn what may work for the individual.

I have somewhat poor neck flexibility. I cannot look up the way R Ex does in the pic. So if I use a lower position, my forward visibility is not great. I did the aero testing at Velo Sports Center and a Retul fit, so I have the optimized position for best aerodynamics and fit.

I can ride the ERO position but I my up road visibility is not great. So I tend to train in a higher position so I can see the traffic and etc ahead. The same is true on the track if there are other racers using the track.

Also, if one brings their arms together, it may cause the head to pop up. Head position is probably the greatest impact on CdA so gains by having the arms together may be offset by the head coming up.

So being able to turtle ones head while having the arms close together may result in a lower CdA.

Control is another major factor in determining speed. The bike goes the fastest when it is going straight and not turning. At the track, slight changes in position in the pole lane scrubs speed. And at VSC, this is even more apparent due to the short radius turns. So if one can keep the arms together, turtle ones head and ride the turns in a constant radius turn, you are there.

Crank length is another interesting discussion. ERO told me that team New Zealand showed up for testing with 155 mm cranks. The only way to know which is faster is to test.

I have found that shorter cranks allow me to stay on top of the gear better. Also, since I have been sprint training, I find I produce more power and spin faster in the ERO position on my pursuit bike than riding on the hoods of my road bike. Likewise if I ride my road bike and do a lot of climbing I will not do well in the ERO position at high cadence on my pursuit bike.
Actually, I don't think the "Being Passed by Racer Ex During a Race Club" is that elite. Membership is probably in the thousands.

I have a short and inflexible neck too. I frequently end up looking over the tops of my glasses to see forward which is a problem as I am near-sighted. Maybe that's why I didn't see the pothole during my last TT.

One of these days we'll have our Green Dream Home finished and I'll hit a few numbers in the CA Lottery so that I can afford to do the aero testing at ERO.
Save
__________________
Thanks.
Cleave
"Real men still wear pink."
Visit my blog at https://cleavesblant.wordpress.com/
Lightning Velo Cycling Club: https://www.lightningvelo.org/
Learn about our Green Dream Home at https://www.lawville.org/
Cleave is offline  
Old 08-26-17, 12:22 AM
  #10932  
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Very cool day out riding the MTB with Heathpack. Petroglyphs, old cemeteries, geology, natural history, mining, human settlement history...many topics covered. Water bottles can be chilled in mountain streams fed by snowpack btw.
Racer Ex is offline  
Old 08-26-17, 04:52 AM
  #10933  
revchuck 
OMC
 
revchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 6,919

Bikes: Specialized Allez Sprint, Look 585, Specialized Allez Comp Race

Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 449 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 16 Posts
Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
Just got back from HEB. Everybody buying bread, etc. I picked up a 12 and a bag of ice Not supposed to get too bad in SA but from the look of the shelves you would think the end of the world was near. It was insane.
Pretty much the same in Lake Charles, though we're going to be on the "wet" side. 4+" predicted for Monday, but <1"/day the rest of the week except for Wednesday. My rain bike is going to get a workout next week.

My thoughts go out to the people getting nailed now.
__________________
Regards,
Chuck

Demain, on roule!
revchuck is offline  
Old 08-26-17, 08:20 AM
  #10934  
Heathpack 
Has a magic bike
 
Heathpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,556

Bikes: 2018 Scott Spark, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone

Mentioned: 696 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4425 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 138 Posts
Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
Very cool day out riding the MTB with Heathpack. Petroglyphs, old cemeteries, geology, natural history, mining, human settlement history...many topics covered. Water bottles can be chilled in mountain streams fed by snowpack btw.
Petroglyph. From the time before mountain bikes.



Reno has really beautiful riding, all kinds of trails. It's kind of a mountain biking paradise.

Pro tip: in addition to cooling a bottle, mountain streams are good for dousing your hot head.
Heathpack is offline  
Old 08-27-17, 08:08 AM
  #10935  
Bandera 
~>~
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: TX Hill Country
Posts: 5,935
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked 150 Times in 99 Posts
First my thoughts go out to all affected by Harvey, which is far from being over.

We lucked out.
By chance landfall put my area on the dryer/less active West side of the Hurricane.
Rainfall was minimal here (so far) and winds only 40-45mph gusts ( so far ).
The local low water crossings are impassable as usual and more rain forecast for days, so far so good.

That was one good Hurricane Party.
Had a house full of neighbors, the power was amazingly still on, a big pot-luck supper ( my sea food gumbo ) and some adult beverages eased the anxious while we hunkered down like a Neolithic tribe in an open floor plan cave.
Cleared the furniture out of the way, put Stevie Ray Vaughn , BeauSoleil and Buckwheat Zydeco on and we danced all night.

Hang in there HOU and my LA relatives!

Texas Flood
Stevie Ray Vaughan

Well there's floodin' down in Texas
All of the telephone lines are down
Well there's floodin' down in Texas
All of the telephone lines are down
And I've been tryin' to call my baby
Lord and I can't get a single sound
Well dark clouds are rollin' in
Man I'm standin' out in the rain
Well dark clouds are rollin' in
Man I'm standin' out in the rain
Yeah flood water keep a rollin'
Man it's about to drive poor me insane

__________________
'74 Raleigh Internat'l. '77 Trek TX900 FG. '90 Vitus 979. '10 Merckx EMX3. '13 Soma Stanyan

Last edited by Bandera; 08-27-17 at 08:49 AM.
Bandera is offline  
Old 08-28-17, 01:01 PM
  #10936  
sarals 
Idiot Emeritus
 
sarals's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 60 Miles South of Hellyer
Posts: 6,741

Bikes: Yes.

Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
My thoughts to those of you in harms way of Harvey, too. I know that area too well....
__________________
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
sarals is offline  
Old 08-28-17, 01:04 PM
  #10937  
sarals 
Idiot Emeritus
 
sarals's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 60 Miles South of Hellyer
Posts: 6,741

Bikes: Yes.

Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
@Cleave and @Hermes. I've been passed by Ex, but it was a little different. I wasn't racing with him. I was simply trying to stay in the same county with him.
@Cleave. My neck exactly! I have HELL in match sprints trying to watch the other rider if I'm in front. I'll make use of the big screen at VSC, if they put the live shot of the match(es) I'm in up there - I'll watch it to see where the other rider is. I saw the Cuban woman do that in the London Olympics. Great idea!
__________________
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
sarals is offline  
Old 08-28-17, 04:59 PM
  #10938  
sarals 
Idiot Emeritus
 
sarals's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 60 Miles South of Hellyer
Posts: 6,741

Bikes: Yes.

Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
I think everyone must still be up next to that lake in those hills or something. Very quiet around here...
__________________
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
sarals is offline  
Old 09-07-17, 02:15 PM
  #10939  
Bandera 
~>~
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: TX Hill Country
Posts: 5,935
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked 150 Times in 99 Posts
Film Review:

Now available on Amazon Prime streaming "Bicycle", a documentary by M.B. Clifford does a creditable job of presenting the history of the bicycle and it's impact on the culture and sport of Britain in a humorous non-pedantic vein .

Blending interviews with key figures, historical photos and films with an episodic time line it's got some great "stuff".
Penny-farthings, the 1st safety bike, the time trial culture, lousy roadway planning, recent Junior Women's World track racing, the banned Lotus aero bike, national bike paths, and Chris Boardman. What's not to like?

Highly recommended while imbibing Newcastle Brown Ale.

-Bandera
__________________
'74 Raleigh Internat'l. '77 Trek TX900 FG. '90 Vitus 979. '10 Merckx EMX3. '13 Soma Stanyan
Bandera is offline  
Old 09-11-17, 09:54 PM
  #10940  
sarals 
Idiot Emeritus
 
sarals's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 60 Miles South of Hellyer
Posts: 6,741

Bikes: Yes.

Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
@Bandera, yeah! It's on my "to watch" list. Thank you!!
__________________
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
sarals is offline  
Old 09-12-17, 10:41 AM
  #10941  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,136

Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, CAAD12, Felt DA, Dolan

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 23 Posts
Not the best pic, tooling around the sub to sort things out, a little up hill. This is my Road position within a couple mm, with the pad width +40mm. I've been refining and acclimating over the last 6 months. I have room to drop the pads 30mm or so. Going to do some hard efforts as is Saturday. It will be a while before I can get on the Track.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
FullSizeRender 11.jpg (61.6 KB, 61 views)
Voodoo76 is offline  
Old 09-12-17, 10:50 AM
  #10942  
Heathpack 
Has a magic bike
 
Heathpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,556

Bikes: 2018 Scott Spark, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone

Mentioned: 696 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4425 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 138 Posts
Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
Not the best pic, tooling around the sub to sort things out, a little up hill. This is my Road position within a couple mm, with the pad width +40mm. I've been refining and acclimating over the last 6 months. I have room to drop the pads 30mm or so. Going to do some hard efforts as is Saturday. It will be a while before I can get on the Track.


Dude I have no comments on your position but do want to point out that I'm jealous of how skinny you are.


Heathpack is offline  
Old 09-12-17, 08:35 PM
  #10943  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,136

Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, CAAD12, Felt DA, Dolan

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
Dude I have no comments on your position but do want to point out that I'm jealous of how skinny you are.


Good quality bottles of Red will do that 😀
Voodoo76 is offline  
Old 09-13-17, 10:05 AM
  #10944  
sarals 
Idiot Emeritus
 
sarals's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 60 Miles South of Hellyer
Posts: 6,741

Bikes: Yes.

Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
Dude I have no comments on your position but do want to point out that I'm jealous of how skinny you are.


Yeah. That!

Your position looks quite good to me. I'm not the expert, though....
__________________
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
sarals is offline  
Old 09-13-17, 11:05 AM
  #10945  
Bandera 
~>~
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: TX Hill Country
Posts: 5,935
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked 150 Times in 99 Posts
We've all had the experience of a mass start field sprint for the finish line.
We grab a wheel that looks good for the lead out and then something interesting happens.
A shoulder wide gap opens at the right distance/time and:
Without conscious thought we are through the gap and fully committed to an all-out sprint for the line.

So, what's going on here?

An old teammate with a powerful well executed sprint and many wins says:
The sprint itself is a Zen experience: Mindless-Mindfulness as Action.
Be in the moment.

My Evil Twin Skippy believes that:
When presented w/ a discrete stimulus a well conditioned subject responds w/ a specific conditioned response.
If presented w/ A, then B will result. Conscious thought not required or desired.
Train like you race, race like you train.

I think the adrenaline/hormonal Fight or Flight autonomic system kicks in with the danger of the herd at full-chat.
We just Flee for the line trying to keep from being trampled and prove our Alpha herd status w/o conscious thought.
Fear is the automatic reptile-brain motivator: Flee and fight like a beast.

So, what do you think?
D.T. Suzuki, B.F. Skinner, David Attenborough sprinting or something else?

-Bandera
__________________
'74 Raleigh Internat'l. '77 Trek TX900 FG. '90 Vitus 979. '10 Merckx EMX3. '13 Soma Stanyan

Last edited by Bandera; 09-13-17 at 05:40 PM.
Bandera is offline  
Old 09-13-17, 08:46 PM
  #10946  
sarals 
Idiot Emeritus
 
sarals's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: 60 Miles South of Hellyer
Posts: 6,741

Bikes: Yes.

Mentioned: 228 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 331 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
@Bandera, ummmmm....


Jules: "You read the Bible, Brett?"

Brett: "Yes!"

Jules: "Well, there's this passage I've got memorized that sort of fits this occasion. Ezekiel 25:17. The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of the evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and goodwill, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper, and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee!"
__________________
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
sarals is offline  
Old 09-16-17, 11:28 AM
  #10947  
revchuck 
OMC
 
revchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 6,919

Bikes: Specialized Allez Sprint, Look 585, Specialized Allez Comp Race

Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 449 Post(s)
Liked 28 Times in 16 Posts
Tuesday I got tired of trying to look through a translucent veil in my right eye, so I went to an ophthalmologist to find out what was going on. She examined me and told me the retina had partially detached from my eyeball and set me up an appointment for surgery. The surgery was Thursday evening and went well, or so I'm told since I was heavily sedated. Yesterday I was severely hung over from the sedation; no pain as such, just super lethargic. I'm much better today, feel just about normal. I'm pretty frustrated though - I was on a roll on the bike, now I'm off it again for an undetermined amount of time. And of course, we're in the nicest season for riding here.

I really shouldn't be bitter about this. Other than the prostate cancer thing, this is the first "old guy" malady I've had. But dammit, I wanna ride my bike! I'll probably be back on it next week, so it shouldn't mess me up too much.
__________________
Regards,
Chuck

Demain, on roule!
revchuck is offline  
Old 09-17-17, 12:12 PM
  #10948  
Hermes
Version 3.0
 
Hermes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 11,961

Bikes: Too Many

Mentioned: 294 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 760 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 292 Posts
@revchuck Boo. Sending healing retina thoughts your way.
Hermes is offline  
Old 09-17-17, 12:25 PM
  #10949  
Cleave
Old & Getting Older Racer
 
Cleave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 5,338

Bikes: Bicycle Transportation: 2017 Chevrolet Bolt, 2010 Toyota Prius

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
@revchuck, are you sure someone doesn't have a voodoo doll of you? Recover well and a quickly as possible.
__________________
Thanks.
Cleave
"Real men still wear pink."
Visit my blog at https://cleavesblant.wordpress.com/
Lightning Velo Cycling Club: https://www.lightningvelo.org/
Learn about our Green Dream Home at https://www.lawville.org/
Cleave is offline  
Old 09-17-17, 07:16 PM
  #10950  
Heathpack 
Has a magic bike
 
Heathpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,556

Bikes: 2018 Scott Spark, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone

Mentioned: 696 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4425 Post(s)
Liked 345 Times in 138 Posts
@revchuck, sorry to hear about the eye. Heal up and dont worry to much about getting back on the bike. You'll get there when you get there.

Heathpack is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.