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Old Campy Brakes/levers identification?

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Old Campy Brakes/levers identification?

Old 02-27-20, 09:38 PM
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Old Campy Brakes/levers identification?

Had these brakes and levers in my pile of old parts for a while now. I had intended to build a campy bike but never ended up doing it. The set came in an original box labled campy "freni super record," however, I was always under the impression that these brakes/levers didn't match the box (because we all put old parts in boxes, that's just what happens.)

So I want to know what the brakes actually are. I looked everywhere for any part number to no avail.

The only words on the brakes themselves are "Brev. Int." and "Brev. Camp."

Here are the pictures.












I appreciate any help, thanks.
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Old 02-27-20, 10:03 PM
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The non-drilled levers indicate NR more than SR. That was really the bigger reason for the SR designation because of the weight savings. Which was minimal. If they have never been installed they are likely worth more to a collector, even with the wrong box. For some reason the boxes have a value as well which is hard for me to comprehend as you don't carry the boxes down the road with you as you ride. But then again I'm not very smart. Smiles, MH
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Old 02-27-20, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
The non-drilled levers indicate NR more than SR. That was really the bigger reason for the SR designation because of the weight savings. Which was minimal. If they have never been installed they are likely worth more to a collector, even with the wrong box. For some reason the boxes have a value as well which is hard for me to comprehend as you don't carry the boxes down the road with you as you ride. But then again I'm not very smart. Smiles, MH

They've definitely been installed... albeit briefly. They're not clean and the levers have obvious scratches from being wrecked and scraping along the ground. Although the brakes themselves will LOOK new once I give them a quick scrub. (I'd never advertise them that way though.)

The pads are campy and they look brand new, so my guess is someone bought a bike that had these installed, then decided they wanted SR stuff instead (perhaps after wrecking once or twice.)
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Old 02-28-20, 07:06 AM
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Post CPSC changes.
short reach ( piccolo)
nutted attachment- probably early 80’s due to the nylock inserts. Pre shield logo hoods.
missing the cardboard retainers for the adjusters
assuming the cables, furrels and housing are missing. Those lived under the cardboard retainer.
very nice set.
hoods age which is typical - they can live a long life still but the clock is ticking.
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Old 02-28-20, 11:23 AM
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It's a bit pedantic but they are Record (2040/1) brakes. There was never a Nuovo Record brake set.

The only difference between Record and Super Record was the brake levers. SR were drilled out, Record were not. Calipers were the same. The drilled SR levers were actually slightly heavier, due to a thicker gauge aluminum being used to compensate for the weakening of the holes. Most of the old timers here will remember this lore. The smart thing was to go with the regular Record. SR were purely for fashion.

IIRC originally SR were supposed to have Ti center bolts, but that never happened in production.

BTW is there any suitable modern replacement for the old 1.8mm campy brake cables? That was a big part of the feel of those brakes.

Oops. EDIT. I found a source myself a couple years ago. Haven't tried them. Old cables work fine. These claim to be 1.8mm but maybe they are just 1.6 with a coating.
https://www.bikeforums.net/19635462-post4.html

Last edited by Salamandrine; 02-28-20 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 02-28-20, 11:25 AM
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Too bad about the busted wheel guide, though. The pads/pad holders for these brakes always go for big bucks on Ebay. A broken wheel guide suggests the pad holders are alloy, which would mean the calipers are Super Record but the levers are Nuovo Record.

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Old 02-28-20, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
A broken wheel guide suggests the pad holders are alloy, which would mean the calipers are Super Record but the levers are Nuovo Record.
Oh that's right, SR had the alloy pad holders. Calipers were otherwise the same.
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Old 02-28-20, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
It's a bit pedantic but they are Record (2040/1) brakes. There was never a Nuovo Record brake set.

The only difference between Record and Super Record was the brake levers. SR were drilled out, Record were not. Calipers were the same. The drilled SR levers were actually slightly heavier, due to a thicker gauge aluminum being used to compensate for the weakening of the holes. Most of the old timers here will remember this lore. The smart thing was to go with the regular Record. SR were purely for fashion.

IIRC originally SR were supposed to have Ti center bolts, but that never happened in production.

BTW is there any suitable modern replacement for the old 1.8mm campy brake cables? That was a big part of the feel of those brakes.

Oops. EDIT. I found a source myself a couple years ago. Haven't tried them. Old cables work fine. These claim to be 1.8mm but maybe they are just 1.6 with a coating.
https://www.bikeforums.net/19635462-post4.html
That is what I get for looking at this on my phone- you are correct, also another tire guide is bent out of typical shape.
no good, no good. Expensive replacements this pair needs.
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Old 02-28-20, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Oh that's right, SR had the alloy pad holders. Calipers were otherwise the same.
There's no difference between the Record and SR calipers that were shipped at the same time. Changes happened over time, but affected both models.

Original SR brakes had steel pad holders. The alloy came along later. Later Record came with alloy holders too, so alloy holders doesn't indicate SR calipers, it just indicates a later production year.

The first alloy holders had the same dimensions as the steel ones, and tended to break, typically from grabbing them to squeeze the brakes. Later alloy holders were significantly beefed up. Again, on any given day, the Record and SR holders were the same, whether steel or alloy, black plastic coated or not, thin (weak) or beefed-up alloy.

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Old 02-29-20, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
It's a bit pedantic but they are Record (2040/1) brakes. There was never a Nuovo Record brake set.

The only difference between Record and Super Record was the brake levers. SR were drilled out, Record were not. Calipers were the same. The drilled SR levers were actually slightly heavier, due to a thicker gauge aluminum being used to compensate for the weakening of the holes. Most of the old timers here will remember this lore. The smart thing was to go with the regular Record. SR were purely for fashion.

IIRC originally SR were supposed to have Ti center bolts, but that never happened in production.

BTW is there any suitable modern replacement for the old 1.8mm campy brake cables? That was a big part of the feel of those brakes.

Oops. EDIT. I found a source myself a couple years ago. Haven't tried them. Old cables work fine. These claim to be 1.8mm but maybe they are just 1.6 with a coating.
https://www.bikeforums.net/19635462-post4.html
Some of the evolutions through the ages, but I don't know enough to show a chronology:

On my 1980 Masi the brakes were what we would now call medium reach, in the 50 mm range. The bike also had Clement 30 mm hand-made tubulars, so the reach was needed on that frame. I can't say it was standard for California Masis. They were secured with external hex nuts. The pivots were secured with acorn nuts, 10 mm wrench (I think!). The QR lever tabs were pressed into a rounded shape. The earlier ones (early/mid '70s) were, I believe, a flat blade. This could have been a CPSC feature. Several years later (mid '80s) bikes in shops had similar calipers, but shorter reach and with the recessed Allen hex nuts. I don't know when the tire guides on the brake pad holders came or went. My Masi certainly has non-drilled levers.

I have more modern SP and DP calipers on more modern bikes and I sense no lack of feel or that iconic firmness with modern cabling like Jagwire or Campagnolo for Ergopower. When I first realized how critical cables and their termination were to good braking I bought a set or two of Campy "supplies" but I also discovered American Cyclery in San Francisco selling Modolo cable/sheath sets for fire sale prices. Those made for quite solid braking, as well. If you can find some original great Campagnolo brake sheath with their cable, buy enough for two bikes. Boulder Bikes (Mike Kone's company) gets them from time to time. You might also contact Vecchio's Bicicletteria in Boulder, Colorado and see what they would recommend. But I think the difference between vintage Campagnolo cables properly terminated and Jagwire cables properly terminated is far less than what's lost if either cable system in not terminated correctly.
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Old 02-29-20, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
The non-drilled levers indicate NR more than SR. That was really the bigger reason for the SR designation because of the weight savings. Which was minimal. If they have never been installed they are likely worth more to a collector, even with the wrong box. For some reason the boxes have a value as well which is hard for me to comprehend as you don't carry the boxes down the road with you as you ride. But then again I'm not very smart. Smiles, MH
Me either...
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Old 02-29-20, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
There's no difference between the Record and SR calipers that were shipped at the same time. Changes happened over time, but affected both models.
Thanks for clarifying this. Now that you mention it, it starts to come back. My memory of the details of that era are getting a bit fuzzy. IIRC I bought a set of record brakes around '82 that still had steel holders. Alloy must have been introduced after that -- probably around the same time as those dumb alloy toe clips and revised shift levers that didn't work very well.
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Old 02-29-20, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Some of the evolutions through the ages, but I don't know enough to show a chronology:

On my 1980 Masi the brakes were what we would now call medium reach, in the 50 mm range. The bike also had Clement 30 mm hand-made tubulars, so the reach was needed on that frame. I can't say it was standard for California Masis. They were secured with external hex nuts. The pivots were secured with acorn nuts, 10 mm wrench (I think!). The QR lever tabs were pressed into a rounded shape. The earlier ones (early/mid '70s) were, I believe, a flat blade. This could have been a CPSC feature. Several years later (mid '80s) bikes in shops had similar calipers, but shorter reach and with the recessed Allen hex nuts. I don't know when the tire guides on the brake pad holders came or went. My Masi certainly has non-drilled levers.
Hmm, that's interesting. It's a bit late for medium reach, but it was still somewhat in the transitional time. Maybe it was a custom spec. My 78 California Masi has short reach brakes. Despite that it still has enough room for 28mm tires no problem. Probably 30mm tubulars would fit, I think. Those fat Clements were still a thing when I got the bike. It was a special edition made from Columbus instead of 531 though, maybe that had something to do with it.

Yeah, the bulged QR levers were a CPSC feature.

I agree that correct use of correct ferrules is imperative. I actually can feel the difference between 1.6 and 1.8 cables. Tried it once. Current cables are still in fine shape so I'll keep those as long as possible. I don't think there was anything magical about the vintage campy housing. Like most people I swapped it out pretty quickly because I didn't want gray. The old Masi isn't currently being ridden anyway. I have to send it to Ed Litton or someone for a repair at some point.
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Old 02-29-20, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Hmm, that's interesting. It's a bit late for medium reach, but it was still somewhat in the transitional time. Maybe it was a custom spec. My 78 California Masi has short reach brakes. Despite that it still has enough room for 28mm tires no problem. Probably 30mm tubulars would fit, I think. Those fat Clements were still a thing when I got the bike. It was a special edition made from Columbus instead of 531 though, maybe that had something to do with it.

Yeah, the bulged QR levers were a CPSC feature.

I agree that correct use of correct ferrules is imperative. I actually can feel the difference between 1.6 and 1.8 cables. Tried it once. Current cables are still in fine shape so I'll keep those as long as possible. I don't think there was anything magical about the vintage campy housing. Like most people I swapped it out pretty quickly because I didn't want gray. The old Masi isn't currently being ridden anyway. I have to send it to Ed Litton or someone for a repair at some point.
Masi between 1978 (maybe late 77) to 1980 was in a weird period.
At some point the geometry got sorted out. When Mario left, the knowledge went with. The jig frames were OK is some sizes, not OK in others.
Nobody asked him to document the alterations he made. He left and ?!?
There were other changes, clearances got tightened up a bit by 1981, chainstays got a touch shorter. The dropouts were still long... probably using up existing stock.
They were late to using recessed brake fixing even though there had been a trade show bike that had recessed mounting before Mario departed.
The original stock of Campagnolo probably also contributed to using "normal" reach brakes till gone.
I felt the Cinelli MC crown was a cost measure, they had tooled up an investment cast crown during the Carlsbad period, but maybe no $$$ to buy a second run, the Cinelli crown was a buyout.
in the later middle-ish 80's they went to a new fittings set through Henry James. Why not re-run the 1975 tooling? Good quality, but a style drop on the head lugs I think. The crown is OK, the Bottom bracket shell purposeful.
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Old 03-01-20, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Hmm, that's interesting. It's a bit late for medium reach, but it was still somewhat in the transitional time. Maybe it was a custom spec. My 78 California Masi has short reach brakes. Despite that it still has enough room for 28mm tires no problem. Probably 30mm tubulars would fit, I think. Those fat Clements were still a thing when I got the bike. It was a special edition made from Columbus instead of 531 though, maybe that had something to do with it.

Yeah, the bulged QR levers were a CPSC feature.

I agree that correct use of correct ferrules is imperative. I actually can feel the difference between 1.6 and 1.8 cables. Tried it once. Current cables are still in fine shape so I'll keep those as long as possible. I don't think there was anything magical about the vintage campy housing. Like most people I swapped it out pretty quickly because I didn't want gray. The old Masi isn't currently being ridden anyway. I have to send it to Ed Litton or someone for a repair at some point.
As far as brakes, I've read from the gurus that US Masi bikes were sold with a standard specification, a special specification, or the "Plant" supplied a finished frame+fork to the customer's LBS, which then built it up to the customer specification. Among other details, customers could specify Reynolds or Columbus. I don't know whether they could call out what each tube is. I'd expect someone with Faliero's reputation for fitting the machine to the rider would not have followed a spec dictated by the customer if he did not agree with the spec. So I think brake reach should be expected to be a variable.

I also have rarely seen tubing stickers, suggesting mixed tubing was the norm. I'd love to see where in 1978 - 1980 there was a standard tubing was identified. In our little vintage club (Detroit Vintage Bicycle Mafia) there have been quite a few Masis in members' hands, and "tubing is a mystery, but they ride great" has been the common view. My particular bike has been looked over very thoroughly by folks like Bob Hovey, and while he agreed it has odd points, it is a Gran Criterium built in late 1980, but not at the Carlsbad shop. I bought mine about 1985 from a college student who got it from his mom, who raced it in S Cal. We can make of that what we will - the young man did not know much about the bike. It was also a little patinated, and still is. Masi remains mysterious.
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Old 03-01-20, 02:21 PM
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The best guess as to Masi tubing is to look at the fork.
That will tell the tale of Reynolds or Columbus for the most part. Imperial oval, Reynolds, Continental oval, Columbus.
In the Carlsbad days, Columbus was a $25. up-charge and not advertised.
In Autumn 1976 I wanted a Columbus Masi, was advised it was not available at that time, Mario was out of the building.
Rob Roberson's build lists provide some light during "the Ranch" interval.
A few of the Columbus bikes received Columbus transfers. Not all.
Remember, Reynolds was cheaper. When demand was strong, no need to market the more expensive tubing.
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Old 03-01-20, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
The best guess as to Masi tubing is to look at the fork.
That will tell the tale of Reynolds or Columbus for the most part. Imperial oval, Reynolds, Continental oval, Columbus.
In the Carlsbad days, Columbus was a $25. up-charge and not advertised.
In Autumn 1976 I wanted a Columbus Masi, was advised it was not available at that time, Mario was out of the building.
Rob Roberson's build lists provide some light during "the Ranch" interval.
A few of the Columbus bikes received Columbus transfers. Not all.
Remember, Reynolds was cheaper. When demand was strong, no need to market the more expensive tubing.
I guess we are digressing a bit into the subject of Masi, but I appreciate your insights.

My 78 Masi indeed has a little bird on the steer tube. The fork is pretty obviously Columbus even without that. This was a special edition and they made a handful, or rather Keith Lippy did. (supposedly). Black paint, Columbus tubing, and originally equipped with Duracce rather than Campy. That solves the short reach brake issue and the need to use up old inventory. I've seen one other one a long time ago. I broke most of the Duracce pretty quickly, and it got replaced with NR piece by piece.

Despite this being made during a transitional period, it's definitely one of the nicer Masi frames I've ever seen. It's a bit small for me by 70s standards, and by my current requirements. In the 80s smaller frames were in fashion -- lighter, stiffer and more aero. Thanks to LeMond for that trend. I keep it for sentimental value.


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Old 03-01-20, 06:15 PM
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Handsome bike.
in the Carlsbad period, black was not an official color. I saw one built in late ‘74-early ‘75 interval. Like yours with MASI only on the downtube. That one was Custom with a capital C. Brazed on stops for terminating bar end shifter cable housings, Columbus Tubing, no chrome.
a Darth Vader bike before Star Wars.

my ‘76 bike was black- “no flags”. Masi America seat tube bands. They put up with most of my requests.

”support your Flag, buy American, buy a Masi”
it was a handsome bike.
sold it a number of years later at a profit to help pay for school. Sad, but for a worthy cause.
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Old 03-01-20, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Salamandrine View Post
Hmm, that's interesting. It's a bit late for medium reach, but it was still somewhat in the transitional time. Maybe it was a custom spec. My 78 California Masi has short reach brakes. Despite that it still has enough room for 28mm tires no problem. Probably 30mm tubulars would fit, I think. Those fat Clements were still a thing when I got the bike. It was a special edition made from Columbus instead of 531 though, maybe that had something to do with it.

Yeah, the bulged QR levers were a CPSC feature.

I agree that correct use of correct ferrules is imperative. I actually can feel the difference between 1.6 and 1.8 cables. Tried it once. Current cables are still in fine shape so I'll keep those as long as possible. I don't think there was anything magical about the vintage campy housing. Like most people I swapped it out pretty quickly because I didn't want gray. The old Masi isn't currently being ridden anyway. I have to send it to Ed Litton or someone for a repair at some point.
I don't care about the cable housing colors, I certainly don't get obsessed about them. When I first tried Campy housings I was trying to get teh bike to as-new functionality, not intending a repaint. I had read so many knee-jerk negatives about Record brakes that I just had to try an as-original rebuild for brakes, derailleurs and shifters. I also did all the bearings - wheels, BB, headset. Overall the bike was transformed. Everything worked like I remembered new Campy bikes from my old days, 1972 or so (excepting brakes, no friends in the '70s had the Campy brakes). And the "new" brakes were far better than the old Weinmann sidepulls I got in 1969, and the Shimano 6207-600 sidepulls on my 1984 Trek 610 - by far the worst I have owned. I believe the contribution of the Campy housings was in comparison to the Shimanos. The Shimanos were visibly squishig together as I worked the lever, where the Campys (with proper end treatments transferred all the motion to the calipers, and the Shimanos didn't. Visible flexibility in the Shimano levers and calipers also greatly hurt my impression. The Campy Record emphasized brake control and modulation, so no lost motion, no play at cable end, no lateral motion between inner cable and outer able, teflon linings, minimal flex in the calipers and levers. Today I would agree (as I said) there are a lot of good cables on the market. When I was "blueprinting" my Masi in the mid-80s I bought Campy cables because they were designed to work with the Campy levers and calipers. They still function so I'm sticking with them.

What kind of frame repair does your Masi need, and what size is it? Have you ever measured the frame tubes, angles, and fork offset? Maybe we can jointly begin a Masi geometry database. I have never seen such a list.
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Old 03-01-20, 07:47 PM
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I have started one for the size ranges I have.
I have 5 - 55cm road bikes.
4 - 56cm as Masi measures
a few bigger and a few smaller beyond that.

fork take is the biggest variable and I attribute that to how Falerio was reported to do that task by Brian Baylis - it was similar to what I saw but when the Maestro performed the task there was no review. Brian reported that he added a bit more effort at the end, cranking the crown or adjacent. I believe that.

beyond, in the early 80’s the chain stays got shorter. By ‘86 the bike was quite different.
i like that bike but it is a different animal.
i lost an auction on one attributed to the late Dave Tesch- it looked like a Tesch 101.

from casual measures of bikes I could take a tape measure to- the frames that received a .5 cm stamp had a touch longer seat tube and different length top tube.

no idea on the very small or tall. I think the very small frames had compromised handling to keep the front center measure UCI compliant.
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Old 03-01-20, 08:06 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Masi between 1978 (maybe late 77) to 1980 was in a weird period.
At some point the geometry got sorted out. When Mario left, the knowledge went with. The jig frames were OK is some sizes, not OK in others.
Nobody asked him to document the alterations he made. He left and ?!?
There were other changes, clearances got tightened up a bit by 1981, chainstays got a touch shorter. The dropouts were still long... probably using up existing stock.
They were late to using recessed brake fixing even though there had been a trade show bike that had recessed mounting before Mario departed.
The original stock of Campagnolo probably also contributed to using "normal" reach brakes till gone.
I felt the Cinelli MC crown was a cost measure, they had tooled up an investment cast crown during the Carlsbad period, but maybe no $$$ to buy a second run, the Cinelli crown was a buyout.
in the later middle-ish 80's they went to a new fittings set through Henry James. Why not re-run the 1975 tooling? Good quality, but a style drop on the head lugs I think. The crown is OK, the Bottom bracket shell purposeful.
I'm interested in your comment on the jig frames. I assume you are saying something about geometry. Can you say anything more specific about that? Which ones are OK, which ones are not, and what is not ok with them? Mine is an MC53, btw.
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Old 03-01-20, 10:14 PM
  #22  
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the 55cm jig frame was not used.
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Old 03-03-20, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
my ‘76 bike was black- “no flags”. Masi America seat tube bands. They put up with most of my requests.
I think you mentioned that before. Perhaps it was your bike that inspired this 'special' black no flags edition in 1978. Sounds like it. I bought my black Masi from a racer who needed money, around december 1979 IIRC. I'd suppose it must have been something like a year and a half old at the time. I was not quite 15 and could barely stand over it...

Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
What kind of frame repair does your Masi need, and what size is it? Have you ever measured the frame tubes, angles, and fork offset? Maybe we can jointly begin a Masi geometry database. I have never seen such a list.
It needs a new steer tube. Bulged slightly. Not sure what happened exactly. I don't over torque things. Might just be preload plus a gazillion miles plus corrosion from sweat. I was forced to over tighten it before a juniors race once by an overzealous official, but I'd repacked the headset (a few times) after that and there was no damage until many years later. So who knows, but it is what it is.

It's a 61cm. I measured the angles etc decades ago but don't have it written down. It's a bare frame in the closet right now, so can't get to it easily. At any rate, the angles IIRC are 73.5º parallel, and trail is something neutral like 57 or 58. Moderately long chainstays. Handling is about as good as it gets.
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Old 03-03-20, 02:35 PM
  #24  
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I cannot take credit for the black and no flags edition. I saw one earlier and felt it just looked terrific.
The track bikes of the period, granted, very few in number, no flags.
The Black... was a surprise in 1975. There was also a Champagne Pursuit bike with a black head tube.
And a White with yellow head tube.
There were a few "team" bikes from the local Carlsbad club of the period that also got non standard graphics.
They were out there, but few in number.

There were a number of bikes as seen in the movie Breaking Away and in the shops in 1978 (maybe late 1977 too) that received no flags.
I actually attribute it to damaged transfers being used to extend the stock, often these were paired with non color coordinated chain stay graphics.
Also, possibly lack of skill of the person tasked with applying them. Some show... hiccups.
one of the two movie Masi bikes had blue chainstay lettering, white on the downtube. ?!?
paying out for a fresh run of transfers I am sure was not a happy purchase at the time, the market did not really resume until after the film came out.
The production was limping along for near 24 months.
Moving production to an outbuilding on one's property was quite a retreat.
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Old 03-05-20, 12:20 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
I have started one for the size ranges I have.
I have 5 - 55cm road bikes.
4 - 56cm as Masi measures
a few bigger and a few smaller beyond that.

fork take is the biggest variable and I attribute that to how Falerio was reported to do that task by Brian Baylis - it was similar to what I saw but when the Maestro performed the task there was no review. Brian reported that he added a bit more effort at the end, cranking the crown or adjacent. I believe that.

beyond, in the early 80’s the chain stays got shorter. By ‘86 the bike was quite different.
i like that bike but it is a different animal.
i lost an auction on one attributed to the late Dave Tesch- it looked like a Tesch 101.

from casual measures of bikes I could take a tape measure to- the frames that received a .5 cm stamp had a touch longer seat tube and different length top tube.

no idea on the very small or tall. I think the very small frames had compromised handling to keep the front center measure UCI compliant.
My MC53 measures 53 cm from BB center to tippy top of the seat lug, and it's about 51 cm c-c, but it's been a while since I did a careful measurement. So what you call 56's are probably MC56, and then are 54 cm c-c. And your 55s which you do not identify as Masi-sizing are most likely 55 c-c and hence MC57?

I think I would like an MC56, because my MC53 (which is 1980) is somewhat small and my best fits are 53 and 54 c-c.
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