big john

Lucky you.

Cypress

You really love to strawman the heck out of these arguments. You call others out on "not answering your questions" then cherry pick one tiny aspect of a response while ignoring the rest of the post that proves you wrong.

While you're riding with no hands, try to lean the bike over further and further. You wouldn't do that, right? Why not? Because the front wheel would end up cutting in under the bike and try to go to full lock into the corner. The only way to combat that full-lock-crash situation is to apply pressure to the inside of your handlebar, which is....countersteering.

If you want to know why your bike begins turning when you're riding with no hands, read up on gyroscopic precession. I'm not going to go into lengthy detail on that in this thread because I'm still not convinced you aren't an attention-seeking troll.

tomato coupe

I am not making a straw man argument. I am offering an example to illustrate why a statement is false.

You're leaving out an important tool -- a rider has the ability to shift their weight. Surely you've turned a bike with your hands off the bars?

So, when someone disagrees with a statement made by another poster, and offers reasons why they disagree, they are a troll?

Cypress

Allow me to clarify my own post, since you are having troubles with this, and you still can't seem to stop focusing on minutia instead of the whole post.

You're arguing minutia that isn't relevant to the overall message of the post to save face in your losing argument. That is, by definition, strawmanning. You remind me of my ex-girlfriend.

You're a troll because while everyone is proving you wrong time and time again, you keep changing the tune of your argument to try and sound correct.

It's time to admit you're wrong about this, or you're just a troll desperately looking for attention.

Seattle Forrest

The crazy thing is almost anyone can ride a bike without having to be able to describe the physics of it.

woodcraft

I don't always stick me knee out (in) when cornering,

but when I do, I do it for flair,

and sometimes wonder to myself, "is this actually doing anything?"

tomato coupe

It's not minutia. There have been two very incorrect statements made by posters in this thread. The first is that the handlebars remain turned away from the direction of the turn for the duration of the turn. That is demonstrably false, and is clearly shown in the video linked earlier in the thread, and in many scientific articles. The second false statement is that pressure must be applied to the inside of the handlebars for the duration of the turn to keep the bike from going straight. That statement is also demonstrably false, as anyone who is adept at riding no hands can attest to.

I will repeat my general point: Counter steering is a very effective way to initiate a turn on a bicycle, but it is not the only way to initiate a turn, and it is not always the quickest way to initiate a turn. My statement applies to bicycle, not motorcycles. Techniques that work for bicycles do not necessarily work for motorcycles, because the weight of the rider is dominant on a bicycle, while the weight of the rider is much less than the weight of a motorcycle.

Carbonfiberboy 

And yes to this latter statement. On sweepers, I often initiate the turn by dropping my head into it. That's a slower initiation, but it feels right and it's fast.

Cypress

You're comparing turning while riding with no hands to actual cornering, and that's a false dichotomy. You've also ignored my entire explanation as to why cornering happens with no hands, and obviously (intentionally?) didn't care to read up on gyroscopic precession for the full explanation of the physics. You so desperately don't want to be wrong about this, so you've closed out all explanations that aren't your own.

tomato coupe

I am not disagreeing that counter steering is required to initiate a turn while riding no hands. What I'm disagreeing with is that a rider must apply constant pressure to the inside of the bars for the duration of the turn. This obviously doesn't happen when one takes a corner with their hands off the bars, therefore it clearly is not necessary.

And, just for the record, I really don't need to read up on gyroscopic precession. My physics background far exceeds yours.

Cypress

You're obviously not my ex then. She knows about my degree in Geophysics and subsequent math minor from Oregon State.

Again, you are ignoring my post...no surprise there. Next time you're mid-corner, take your hands off the bars and find out for yourself. I, and everyone else, is sick of explaining this to you.

tomato coupe

Like I said, my physics background far exceeds yours.

Have you really never seen anyone take a corner with their hands off the bars? I could do that when I was 8 years old.

Cypress

You are too much, man. Again, not understanding my post and only responding to the words you put in your own head. You might be good at physics (who knows), but your reading comprehension is bottom of the barrel.

tomato coupe

Clearly, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Please try to explain it to me. I mean that, honestly.

Cypress

If a rider were to enter a corner at a decent speed (such as on a downhill, per the thread title) with their hands on the bars, then remove them from the bars, they will crash. This is because pressure will no longer be applied to the inside bar, which, as stated so many times, in so many ways, is countersteering. Short of you actually doing this in real life (I really don't want you do try it - bike crashes suck) and your apprehension/inability to apply your vast knowledge of physics to the subject, there's not much else to explain.

tomato coupe

One can make a turn with hands on the bars, and one can make a turn with hands off the bars, but they require different techniques. Your scenario, which involves removing hands from the bars in the middle of a high speed turn, is very tricky because changing techniques in the middle of a high speed turn is quite difficult. The transition is very difficult, but it is incorrect to conclude that it can't be done because pressure must be maintained on the inside of the bars. Physics does not require that a rider maintain pressure on the inside bar.

Beautiful demonstration in the first 30 seconds of this famous video:

Cypress

If that's your idea of , you and I are talking about VASTLY different things.

tomato coupe

It's a lot trickier doing things at 30mph than it is at 10mph, but the physics is the same. Pressure on the inside bar is not necessary at either speed. Obviously, for safety reasons, you're better off keeping your hands on the bars at 30mph.

Cypress

I disagree with both of those sentences. This could be where individual skillset is dividing our experiences.

tomato coupe

You disagree that it's trickier to do things at higher speeds or that the physics is the same?

Darth Lefty 

How soon until roadies realize they could actually corner like those MotoGP guys if they installed a dropper post? How soon after that until bike shorts grow knee pucks?

Cypress

I'm not going down this road with you (again). If you want me to concede and say "you're totally right" you're barking up the wrong tree.

My experience and applied knowledge will always trump your theory.

tomato coupe

You stated you disagree with a statement I made. I'm simply asking which part you disagree with.

DaveSSS 

Many posts above, someone asked me if the pressure placed on the bars that i was referring to was downward or forward. Counter steering is a forward push on the bars (trying to turn left). Down won't do a thing. You may have your hands in the hooks and push down, but if it tightens the turn, it's because the bars were turned slightly to be counter steering as a result of the pushing mostly down.

I found my motorcycle training course to be very enlightening, when applied to my bicycle riding. The turning principles are the same, but the pressure required to turn a bicycle is tiny compared to a motorcycle. Those hefty wheels turning at a high speed make it much harder to turn a motorcycle. As I've noted before, I rode down my regular 10 mile winding decent, with my hands in the hooks, using nothing but counter steering pressure in the turn and letting up to straighten out, just as my motorcycle training instructor advised. From then on, if my bike wasn't turning sharp enough or too sharp, I knew just what to do to correct my path. You don;t want to rely on magic.

I was also accused of making mistakes about which direction the wheels are turned in a sweeping high speed turn. Not so, since I never commented on the direction that the tire is turned. It's irrelevant. What you must concentrate on is your position on the road and whether you need more or less counter steering pressure to maintain the desired path, through a turn. If no counter steering is applied it means you're not leaning the bike and not turning.

Hermes

Moderation note: We have a lot of interesting posts and information for OP on steering. Let's agree to disagree with respect to some of the debated points and let OP, as well as others decide what to believe and put into practice. Of course, continue to add value if appropriate but curtail the bickering, badgering, trolling and etc.