Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Why Reinvent the Wheel? (aka another Campagnolo rant)

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Why Reinvent the Wheel? (aka another Campagnolo rant)

Old 03-28-20, 03:03 AM
  #26  
Kimmo 
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 8,565

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 792 Post(s)
Liked 186 Times in 147 Posts
Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
2000 miles so far this year, not sure about last year. HED, Bontrager, and hand-built stuff with Sapim CX-Ray spokes. I’m at 151 pounds right now, but I’m not a slow rider. Roads are...normal?
Hm. What sort of spoke count are we talking on these wheels with the failing spokes?
Kimmo is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 08:17 AM
  #27  
DaveSSS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 5,769

Bikes: TWO Colnago C-RS w/Chorus 12

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 102 Posts
The current zonda rims are 17mm inside width. Previously 15mm. I have a set on both of my bikes. They work great with 25mm tires, but will easily accommodate 28mm. Weighing in the 135-140 pound range, I don't need 28mm and it's questionable whether the diameter would clear the frame of a Conago C-RS. Tubeless has too many problems to interest me. I've ridden 6200 miles now without a flat, so my tubed tires - michelin power endurance - are working well.

As for the hub design, you can criticize all you want, but they are trouble free and the same free hub works for 9-12 speed. I have all 12 speed. Like usual, shimano will catch up 4 years later, but like with 11 speed, their hubs will be redesigned again (think microspline this time). Your old wheels will be obsolete.

Campy wheels can be had with Shimano 10/11 and the new SRAM XDR free hub. To get the XDR, you either have to buy the Fulcrum brand wheel or a free hub replacement from Fulcrum.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 03-28-20 at 10:01 AM.
DaveSSS is offline  
Likes For DaveSSS:
Old 03-28-20, 08:45 AM
  #28  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,826
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3978 Post(s)
Liked 999 Times in 571 Posts
Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
Because the paired spoke fad has rightfully passed. I've found them to be flexier than normally-laced wheels. Breaking a spoke on a paired-spoke wheel usually makes it unrideable.
Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
I haven't heard many people claim that the G3 stuff is flexy, but I'll take your point as valid.
Flexy or not, a broken spoke puts the wheel seriously out of whack.
noodle soup is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 09:21 AM
  #29  
DaveSSS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 5,769

Bikes: TWO Colnago C-RS w/Chorus 12

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 102 Posts
Take a look at the new Shimano microspline hub. The exploded view on page 17 sure reminds me of a Campy hub. The caged ball bearings on the axle are located similarly to a Campy hub - no longer at the right end of the axle. There must be a a cartridge bearing inside the free hub body, that's probably considered to be non-replaceable, just like Campy's free hub. The cartridge bearings in a Campy free hub can actually be replaced, but it's not real easy.

https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-MAHB001-06-ENG.pdf

Criticizing electric motor bearings is interesting. An electric motor is often expected to run 24 hours a day for 5-10 years, with nothing but an occasional squirt of grease, or in some cases with no maintenance at all. I have two 5 hp pump motors that share 24 hour per day operation. They have greased for life bearings, with no grease fittings. They've been running for 7 years now.
DaveSSS is offline  
Likes For DaveSSS:
Old 03-28-20, 10:08 AM
  #30  
kingston 
Jedi Master
 
kingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lake Forest, IL
Posts: 3,177

Bikes: https://stinkston.blogspot.com/p/my-bikes.html

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1383 Post(s)
Liked 184 Times in 128 Posts
I bought a bike off CL last season that came with SR and two wheelsets, a set of Shamals and a set of old Chorus/Open Pros. When I'm riding the bike I honestly can't tell the difference between those and the other dozen+ other wheelsets I have. People say wheels are one of the best upgrades. I can only assume that's true for people who are more fit than I am. I try not to buy anything shimano because I don't like the way they do business, but I still think the value of their cup and cone hubs is impossible to beat.
kingston is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 10:45 AM
  #31  
Bah Humbug
runner
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 14,855

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 114 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4835 Post(s)
Liked 753 Times in 455 Posts
I wish I'd just sucked it up and gone with the Hed H3+ when those were available. Then my spokes could only asplode.
Bah Humbug is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 10:57 AM
  #32  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 28,709

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 335 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12019 Post(s)
Liked 1,815 Times in 973 Posts
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
I wish I'd just sucked it up and gone with the Hed H3+ when those were available. Then my spokes could only asplode.
My tri-geek-in-training friend has those on his (wait to it) Kestrel Talon. You'd love it.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 11:07 AM
  #33  
DaveSSS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 5,769

Bikes: TWO Colnago C-RS w/Chorus 12

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 102 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
For the Phil Wood/WI comment, I don’t see a straightforward way to get a campy hub on its own. Shimano does the same thing, sadly (thankfully, mavic does too). This is why WI, CK, DT and i9 are so popular. They offer standalone hubs.

I personally went DT for my chinese carbon wheels. They were way cheaper than many western brands and I personally know 5 other people who have bought wheels from that exact company. Many other people have bought other chinese carbon or rebadged chinese carbon wheels. If campy cares about being more popular, they should offer hubsets. I actually really wanted a cup and cone rear hub and would have considered campy if they offered a reasonable hub.

I personally think that Campagnolo hamstrings their wheels with their brand name, because when I think Campy, I think “pompous prick with no personality who tries to compensate by buying rare/unique bike parts”. No offense to anyone who actually rides campy, of course. But as a younger cyclist, some people’s fetishism over “italian heritage” or whatever makes me want to puke. Same reason why Bianchi’s inane “Handmade in Italy” stickers make my blood boil. I’d like to flip the question on you (in regards to drivetrains). Why would anyone pick a campy groupset over Shimano?

To be fair, I think americans’ view of european brands is very different from that of europeans’. It’s possible that campy is very popular in europe/italy. I wouldn’t know.
Typical narrow minded viewpoint. Campy's Italian image means nothing to me. As a mechanical engineer, I like having superior performance and the latest technology. These days, Campy is more interested in selling their line of wheels, than selling hubs, so they only offer 32 hole hubs for traditional wheel builds. I've been using Campy wheels since the first 16 spoke and even 12 spoke (front) Shamals, in the early 90's.

I've used Campy only for over 25 years because they are most often an industry leader when it comes to road bikes. I owned one pre-built Cannondale bike with Shimano 8 speed STI, back when brake/shift levers first came out, but tried Campagnolo ergopower 8 speed, for a new build of a Tommasini Sintesi. I like the way that ergopower lever worked better than Shimano, so I switched and never looked back. I used Campagnolo groupsets on each the many bikes that I've built-up since then. I never bought a factory built bike since the early 90's.

Campy was the first to offer 10, 11 and 12 speed drive trains for road bikes. I made the switch to each of those either in the first year or soon after, while Shimano typically lagged 3-4 years behind. That's one reason to pick Campy.

While the price for Campy groupsets is usually higher than a similar Shimano groupset, the cost of ownership may not be. Used Campy parts sell for relatively high prices. I've sold off a lot of Campy parts on e-bay, each time I moved on to the latest technology.

It pays to search the internet for the lowest prices. For a long time, the lowest prices were usually found from European sources, but not always. I bought two Chorus 12 groups, in July of 2019, as soon as they became available, for $1060 each, from a dealer here in Colorado. The main reason was to get the new 48/32 sub-compact crank and new 11-34 cassette.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 03-29-20 at 07:18 AM.
DaveSSS is offline  
Likes For DaveSSS:
Old 03-28-20, 11:17 AM
  #34  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 28,709

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 335 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12019 Post(s)
Liked 1,815 Times in 973 Posts
I haven't looked at Campagnolo wheel offerings in a while, so I checked them out. Hard pass. All of their disc options have those silly looking three-spoke clusters with big stretches of barren rim between them, the weight/dollar isn't terribly impressive, their rim profiles would be on-trend for 2010 and their tubeless compatibility is spotty. Their Fulcrum offerings are more compelling as budget options, though I wouldn't touch them at price points over three or four hundred dollars, either.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 11:22 AM
  #35  
Bah Humbug
runner
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 14,855

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 114 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4835 Post(s)
Liked 753 Times in 455 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
My tri-geek-in-training friend has those on his (wait to it) Kestrel Talon. You'd love it.
Does he have an actual pair of the H3 Plus? They did not make the rears for long, and the pair was $3k when they did. You can still get the fronts fine, but for some reason the rears are gone. If he has the Plusses, he's probably the only person in the country to match them to a Talon.

Not that there are any tris to train for now anyway.
Bah Humbug is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 11:26 AM
  #36  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,084
Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1477 Post(s)
Liked 370 Times in 266 Posts
Originally Posted by kingston View Post
When I'm riding the bike I honestly can't tell the difference between those and the other dozen+ other wheelsets I have. People say wheels are one of the best upgrades. I can only assume that's true for people who are more fit than I am.
You must be the 41 outlier, then. Most on here say their average speed goes up at least 10mph, can suddenly climb better than Pantani the pirate, and can sprint as fast as Peter Sagan..........after upgrading their wheels to the brand they purchased.
seypat is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 11:28 AM
  #37  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 28,709

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 335 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12019 Post(s)
Liked 1,815 Times in 973 Posts
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Does he have an actual pair of the H3 Plus? They did not make the rears for long, and the pair was $3k when they did. You can still get the fronts fine, but for some reason the rears are gone. If he has the Plusses, he's probably the only person in the country to match them to a Talon.

Not that there are any tris to train for now anyway.
Oh, I couldn't tell you - I wouldn't know the difference and I haven't looked at them that closely. He bought them used and certainly didn't pay $3k (I want to say he was in the $1000 neighborhood).
WhyFi is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 11:28 AM
  #38  
botty kayer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 137
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked 181 Times in 68 Posts
I've not bothered with the newer expensive Campag wheels as I'm still working my way through my collection of Ebay found wheels in excellent condition I got for a fraction of their original cost. They are more than capable of dealing with anything I can throw at them and I've had 10's of 1000's of trouble free miles so far, and the hubs are beautiful to look at even when stationary.

Currently I have:
1 pair first gen silver chorus hubs, 7 speed screw on freewheel, Campagnolo Omega Strada rims
And all the following are 9/10/11 speed hubs which offer great versatility.
5 pairs of silver chorus hubs built with mavic open pro rims
1 pair of Record silver hubs build to Mavic SUP rims
1 pair of Record silver hubs with Ambrosio excellence rims
1 pair of Record black hubs built to Mavic open pro rims
2 pairs original black Shamals-clincher
1 pair of original black Shamals-tubular
2 pairs of original silver Shamals-tubular

I've have had a couple of pairs Fulcrum's too, which are pretty much Campagnolo.

Obviously I only started with one bike and one set of Campagnolo wheels, and then got a second bike, wanted to keep the interchangability of parts between them, so I was already down the Campagnolo rabbit hole, 8 bikes later and the cycle continues
botty kayer is offline  
Likes For botty kayer:
Old 03-28-20, 11:29 AM
  #39  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 28,709

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 335 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12019 Post(s)
Liked 1,815 Times in 973 Posts
Originally Posted by seypat View Post
You must be the 41 outlier, then. Most on here say their average speed goes up at least 10mph, can suddenly climb better than Pantani the pirate, and can sprint as fast as Peter Sagan..........after upgrading their wheels to the brand they purchased.
They exaggerate. My average speed only went up 8mph.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 11:30 AM
  #40  
Bah Humbug
runner
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 14,855

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 114 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4835 Post(s)
Liked 753 Times in 455 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
They exaggerate. My average speed only went up 8mph.
That's the downside of the pizza-and-ice-cream diet: you don't get as much benefit from wheels.
Bah Humbug is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 11:31 AM
  #41  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,084
Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1477 Post(s)
Liked 370 Times in 266 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
They exaggerate. My average speed only went up 8mph.
Honesty is the best policy.
seypat is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 11:32 AM
  #42  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,084
Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1477 Post(s)
Liked 370 Times in 266 Posts
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
That's the downside of the pizza-and-ice-cream diet: you don't get as much benefit from wheels.
It will give you the aero gut, though. Win-win. That's my excuse, anyway.
seypat is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 11:35 AM
  #43  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 28,709

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 335 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12019 Post(s)
Liked 1,815 Times in 973 Posts
Originally Posted by seypat View Post
It will give you the aero gut, though. Win-win. That's my excuse, anyway.
And those side winds aren't as pushy.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 11:37 AM
  #44  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,084
Mentioned: 58 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1477 Post(s)
Liked 370 Times in 266 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
They exaggerate. My average speed only went up 8mph.
OT, but you may need this info. James City County is one of the hotspots for COVID-19 in VA. Take that info and use it. It might be a good time for the MIL to take some time away from there. Good luck.

https://www.pilotonline.com/news/hea...qri-story.html

Last edited by seypat; 03-28-20 at 11:43 AM.
seypat is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 11:41 AM
  #45  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 28,709

Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo

Mentioned: 335 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12019 Post(s)
Liked 1,815 Times in 973 Posts
Originally Posted by seypat View Post
OT, but you may need this info. James City County is one of the hotspots for COVID-19 in VA. Take the info and use it. Good luck.
I know, thanks. We were supposed to be down there right now and I was just complaining in the other thread that my dumb-ass brother in law recently took my not-exactly-hale mother in law to the hospital for a completely unnecessary annual check-up. Ugh.
WhyFi is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 03:53 PM
  #46  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 7,826
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3978 Post(s)
Liked 999 Times in 571 Posts
Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post

Not that there are any tris to train for now anyway.
There's plenty to train for, but few to compete in.
noodle soup is offline  
Old 03-28-20, 04:24 PM
  #47  
Bah Humbug
runner
 
Bah Humbug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Austin
Posts: 14,855

Bikes: S1, R2, P2

Mentioned: 114 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4835 Post(s)
Liked 753 Times in 455 Posts
Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
There's plenty to train for, but few to compete in.
Right now I can't see any specific one of them as more than a hypothetical.
Bah Humbug is offline  
Likes For Bah Humbug:
Old 03-28-20, 08:37 PM
  #48  
Kimmo 
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 8,565

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 792 Post(s)
Liked 186 Times in 147 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
Criticizing electric motor bearings is interesting. An electric motor is often expected to run 24 hours a day for 5-10 years, with nothing but an occasional squirt of grease, or in some cases with no maintenance at all. I have two 5 hp pump motors that share 24 hour per day operation. They have greased for life bearings, with no grease fittings. They've been running for 7 years now.
Nothing wrong with electric motor bearings in electric motors. There's something wrong with using them for a totally different application, though. Cartridge bearing hubs that employ angular contact bearings and a means to adjust preload, not to mention sealing appropriate to a bike hub, are far less inferior than a typical cartridge bearing hub, but they're rocking horse poo.
Kimmo is offline  
Old 03-29-20, 07:17 AM
  #49  
DaveSSS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Loveland, CO
Posts: 5,769

Bikes: TWO Colnago C-RS w/Chorus 12

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 378 Post(s)
Liked 129 Times in 102 Posts
Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
Nothing wrong with electric motor bearings in electric motors. There's something wrong with using them for a totally different application, though. Cartridge bearing hubs that employ angular contact bearings and a means to adjust preload, not to mention sealing appropriate to a bike hub, are far less inferior than a typical cartridge bearing hub, but they're rocking horse poo.
And yet Campy free hubs last for many years with no maintenance of the cartridge bearings. I've never had a problem after 25 years of using Campy hubs. The cartridge bearings are sealed on both ends and the pawl area is also sealed. Replacement bearings are standard models that are easy to buy, but if you watch the video on replacing those bearings, it might not be worth the effort, when and entire free hub can be had for $75.


I don't believe that any other brand uses the Shimano road hub design, which would mean that no other brand of wheel is worth buying. Whatever patent they may have had on the design should have expired long ago.

Have you checked out the new shimano microspline hub? Look at the location of those axle bearings - same area where Campy bearings have been for a very long time. I don't see any caged balls in the free hub either.

https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-MAHB001-06-ENG.pdf

Last edited by DaveSSS; 03-29-20 at 10:56 AM.
DaveSSS is offline  
Likes For DaveSSS:
Old 03-30-20, 06:27 PM
  #50  
robertorolfo
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
robertorolfo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Queens, NY for now...
Posts: 1,209

Bikes: 82 Lotus Unique, 86 Lotus Legend, 88 Basso Loto, 88 Basso PR, 89 Basso PR, 96 Bianchi CDI, 2013 Deda Aegis, 2019 Basso Diamante SV

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 739 Post(s)
Liked 59 Times in 42 Posts
Originally Posted by obrentharris View Post
The thread title makes it sound like Campagnolo invented the bicycle wheel. Campagnolo didn't start making their own hubs until the 1950's, which may seem like a long time ago, but there were many others building hubs before this time. I don't recall seeing Campagnolo branded rims until the 1990's.
Brent
I can see that, but it wasn't meant to be taken literally. I'm just referring to a lot of these "newer" brands that people seem to prefer, despite higher prices and inferior pedigrees to Campagnolo.

Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
IUnfortunately, just like almost all 'high end' hubs, they're junk inside - electric motor bearings with no preload adjustment and a ridiculously loud freehub with a DS axle bearing near the centre of the axle.
Which hubs are junk inside? Campagnolo? You must be kidding...

Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Cost-to-quality was in Shimano's favor pretty much the instant that Shimano was making derailleurs...
As someone else mentioned, I guess I have to remember that everyone's idea of quality is subjective. I wouldn't consider much of anything that Shimano makes to be of higher quality than the Campagnolo equivalent.

Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I haven't looked at Campagnolo wheel offerings in a while, so I checked them out. Hard pass. All of their disc options have those silly looking three-spoke clusters with big stretches of barren rim between them, the weight/dollar isn't terribly impressive, their rim profiles would be on-trend for 2010 and their tubeless compatibility is spotty. Their Fulcrum offerings are more compelling as budget options, though I wouldn't touch them at price points over three or four hundred dollars, either.
Ok, so you think the G3 system is silly. Fair enough, but I don't think there are many people that agree with your opinion. And, please, feel free to point out some better weight/dollar options?

Originally Posted by botty kayer View Post
IObviously I only started with one bike and one set of Campagnolo wheels, and then got a second bike, wanted to keep the interchangability of parts between them, so I was already down the Campagnolo rabbit hole, 8 bikes later and the cycle continues
Good man...
robertorolfo is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.