Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

n+1 siren....set off by my wheels (carbon rims/poor wet braking)

Notices
Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

n+1 siren....set off by my wheels (carbon rims/poor wet braking)

Old 09-03-19, 06:55 PM
  #1  
MinnMan
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,824

Bikes: 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011 Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220, 1991 Bianchi Osprey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 503 Post(s)
Liked 32 Times in 23 Posts
n+1 siren....set off by my wheels (carbon rims/poor wet braking)

So I like what I have. In fact, I love it. My oldish Felt F3 is still a dream bike, and I made it even better earlier in the year by upgrading to deep section (Light Bicycle) wheels and an Easton EC90 aerobar.

So what's the problem? The other day on a group ride we got hit by an unexpected heavy shower, and I found out just how poor the braking can be for carbon wheels with rim brakes. I have what people say is the best for these - Swissstop Black Prince pads and a graphene textured rim track, but whoa, it felt REALLY unsafe. I got home without incident. I fell back and trailed the pace line by a good distance. But I don't know what I would have done had there been any serious descents on the remains of the route.

Normally when rain is expected I just ride my other bike with good old dependable HED Ardennes wheels

Just one other guy on the ride was having the same problems. Most of the others on the ride also had carbon rims, but they either had aluminum brake tracks (e.g., HED Jets) or disc brakes.

So I spent part of this evening just gazing at this baby. I'm thinking that my partner wants me to be safe, riding dependable brakes, right?
MinnMan is offline  
Old 09-03-19, 07:36 PM
  #2  
datlas 
Beyond Bogus
 
datlas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 28,980

Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix

Mentioned: 403 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9090 Post(s)
Liked 204 Times in 136 Posts
That’s one solution. Cheaper solution is pay attention to forecast and take your other bike if there is even a modest chance of rain. That’s what I do.
__________________
Originally Posted by rjones28 View Post
Addiction is all about class.
datlas is offline  
Old 09-03-19, 07:41 PM
  #3  
MinnMan
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,824

Bikes: 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011 Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220, 1991 Bianchi Osprey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 503 Post(s)
Liked 32 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by datlas View Post
That’s one solution. Cheaper solution is pay attention to forecast and take your other bike if there is even a modest chance of rain. That’s what I do.
I do pay attention. Forecast had 10% chance of rain. If I only rode my other bike under those circumstances, I'd hardly ever ride the Felt.

Forecasts are more dependable in some locales than others. What's your % cutoff for leaving the carbon rims behind?

And I suppose if I had been riding next door in Wisconsin or in the driftless parts of Minnesota, where there are some mile-long descents, my cutoff would be more severe. But there weren't any such descents on that route.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 09-03-19, 08:36 PM
  #4  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 19,612
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8790 Post(s)
Liked 552 Times in 333 Posts
You have to get it. A new bike is cheaper than new teeth. Just tell them the red bar tape is too loud and you need a discount.

Are there alternate routes home where you can avoid traffic if the skies open up?

I have a set of carbon hoops. I love them. Wouldn't want to have to use different wheels every time it might rain. Of course I live in Seattle, it might rain 400 days a year. Having discs means I get to ride my nice wheels every time I get on the bike.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 09-03-19, 08:43 PM
  #5  
WhyFi
Senior Member
 
WhyFi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Got a castle in - er, Minneapolis, that's where I dwell!
Posts: 25,549

Bikes: 2016 Diamondback Haanjo, 2018 Trek Domane SL5 Gravel

Mentioned: 311 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9402 Post(s)
Liked 352 Times in 214 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
I'm thinking that my partner wants me to be safe, riding dependable brakes, right?
Absolutely. It's the responsible thing to do.
WhyFi is online now  
Old 09-03-19, 09:21 PM
  #6  
MinnMan
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,824

Bikes: 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011 Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220, 1991 Bianchi Osprey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 503 Post(s)
Liked 32 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by datlas View Post
That’s one solution. Cheaper solution is pay attention to forecast and take your other bike if there is even a modest chance of rain. That’s what I do.
I suppose that another solution is to swap the Light Bicycle wheels for something like the HED Jet 6 pluses. They're heavier, but they otherwise seem to be great wheels. I like the LB hoops plenty, but....

I don't know if the LB wheels have much resale value. They are very popular here on BF, but not much of a name brand out there on Craigslist. I really like them when they are dry.

Last edited by MinnMan; 09-03-19 at 09:29 PM.
MinnMan is offline  
Likes For MinnMan:
Old 09-03-19, 09:24 PM
  #7  
Wileyrat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Tucson Az
Posts: 1,370

Bikes: 2015 Ridley Fenix, 1983 Team Fuji, 1985 Novara Strada, 2013 BD Motobecane 650ht, 90 Trek 850

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 255 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 27 Times in 20 Posts
If you can get your partner to go for a 7k bike just to get a brake upgrade, you need to post how you did it.

Until then, I guess I'll just have to ride on my old dependable Hed Ardennes wheels with Sram/Swissstop pads.

Fwiw, If I were in the market, I'd be interested in the Ultimate CF SL disc with Ultegra di2

Last edited by Wileyrat; 09-03-19 at 09:28 PM.
Wileyrat is offline  
Likes For Wileyrat:
Old 09-03-19, 11:12 PM
  #8  
Dean V
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,469
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 857 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 59 Times in 36 Posts
Just do what you did.
On the rare occasion that you get caught out in the rain and you are not comfortable with the braking in a group, simply ride off the front or back.
I have done exactly that before.
Dean V is offline  
Old 09-04-19, 06:33 AM
  #9  
firebird854
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 402

Bikes: 2016 Specialized Tarmac Expert

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 181 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 17 Posts
Earlier this year (tax break season) I really wanted some deep section carbon wheels but was also afraid of the reduced breaking capability. I instead decided to take the plunge and build up a whole new bike with carbon wheels and disc brakes, the breaking is outstanding and never changes in different weather conditions (rode the breaks down -20% grades in a total downpour with 0 issues).

However, looking back, I would have rather gotten deep wheels with an aluminum break surface for my old bike, would have literally saved me thousands of dollars, but that's just my retrospective thinking. In any case, had I done that, I may have never been satisfied and always wanted full carbon wheels with disc brakes, that's life
firebird854 is offline  
Old 09-04-19, 12:26 PM
  #10  
melikebikey35
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 6 Posts
I was in the same situation a couple of months ago...unexpected downpour, and the super sketchy (i.e. non-exsistent) braking that comes with it (I was running Zipp 404's). While limping my way home, I decided that I was done having to deal with this, and that it was time to go disk. I ended up purchasing a bike a few days later.


Yes, it was a very expensive decision, but one that was 100% worth it. The performace is on another level, wet or dry, and I don't have to worry about diying just because it's raining. So, I say go, for it. And if your partner isn't cool with, then say you'll sell off your other two bike...you'll never want to ride rim-brakes again, anyways
melikebikey35 is offline  
Likes For melikebikey35:
Old 09-04-19, 12:47 PM
  #11  
Rides4Beer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: SC
Posts: 562

Bikes: Revolt | Tarmac

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 301 Post(s)
Liked 94 Times in 65 Posts
Originally Posted by melikebikey35 View Post
I was in the same situation a couple of months ago...unexpected downpour, and the super sketchy (i.e. non-exsistent) braking that comes with it (I was running Zipp 404's). While limping my way home, I decided that I was done having to deal with this, and that it was time to go disk. I ended up purchasing a bike a few days later.


Yes, it was a very expensive decision, but one that was 100% worth it. The performace is on another level, wet or dry, and I don't have to worry about diying just because it's raining. So, I say go, for it. And if your partner isn't cool with, then say you'll sell off your other two bike...you'll never want to ride rim-brakes again, anyways
This. Even in the dry, I'd rather ride my 22lb gravel bike with discs than my rim brake road bike. Which is why I'm getting ready to build up a disc road bike.
Rides4Beer is offline  
Likes For Rides4Beer:
Old 09-04-19, 02:35 PM
  #12  
redlude97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 4,472
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1820 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 76 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
I suppose that another solution is to swap the Light Bicycle wheels for something like the HED Jet 6 pluses. They're heavier, but they otherwise seem to be great wheels. I like the LB hoops plenty, but....
This. any of the HED JET 6/Zipp 404/DA C50 will get you most of the benefit of deep wheels and the braking performance of aluminum wheels and are dirt cheap relative to a new disc bike and other fancy carbon clinchers. Here in the PNW you see a lot less full carbon rim clinchers and still lots of people running the hybrids or disc carbon since you can get caught in the rain 80% of the days regardless of the forecast it seems
redlude97 is offline  
Old 09-04-19, 04:06 PM
  #13  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 19,612
Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8790 Post(s)
Liked 552 Times in 333 Posts
Originally Posted by melikebikey35 View Post
I was in the same situation a couple of months ago...unexpected downpour, and the super sketchy (i.e. non-exsistent) braking that comes with it (I was running Zipp 404's). While limping my way home, I decided that I was done having to deal with this, and that it was time to go disk. I ended up purchasing a bike a few days later.


Yes, it was a very expensive decision, but one that was 100% worth it. The performace is on another level, wet or dry, and I don't have to worry about diying just because it's raining. So, I say go, for it. And if your partner isn't cool with, then say you'll sell off your other two bike...you'll never want to ride rim-brakes again, anyways
Years ago I saw a 404 rim in the trash at LBS, brake track wore out. You made an investment in keeping yours, braking in the rain is like using sandpaper on them.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 09-04-19, 08:15 PM
  #14  
MinnMan
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,824

Bikes: 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011 Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220, 1991 Bianchi Osprey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 503 Post(s)
Liked 32 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
This. any of the HED JET 6/Zipp 404/DA C50 will get you most of the benefit of deep wheels and the braking performance of aluminum wheels and are dirt cheap relative to a new disc bike and other fancy carbon clinchers. Here in the PNW you see a lot less full carbon rim clinchers and still lots of people running the hybrids or disc carbon since you can get caught in the rain 80% of the days regardless of the forecast it seems
Yes, it's the middle path between doing nothing and doing something that is sort of extreme financially. Of course, I also wouldn't have to buy such an expensive bike, but the truth is that the Felt is so great, even after all these years, that I wouldn't be enthusiastic about a new rig unless it were something very exciting. And who among us doesn't want a super bike?

I got a quote from an LBS today for the Jet 6 pluses with a Powertap G3 hub. $1700. So I'll think on it a bit. I don't know if I can justify to myself a whole new bike, and so I'll probably get different wheels for the Felt. But n+1 is such a nice thing to contemplate and those Canyons are so damned tempting.

Last edited by MinnMan; 09-04-19 at 08:19 PM.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 09-04-19, 08:30 PM
  #15  
woodcraft
Senior Member
 
woodcraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 4,340
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1083 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 69 Times in 40 Posts
Try some different pads? Toe the pads in?

I have owned & ridden 5 different carbon wheelsets, with plenty of rain riding,

and never felt unsafe or even noticed very much difference wet, dry, carbon, or alloy.

The worst braking is the CX bike w/ cantis, alloy rims and salmon pads- not great but it still stops.
woodcraft is offline  
Old 09-04-19, 11:34 PM
  #16  
smashndash
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 487

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 309 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post

The other day on a group ride we got hit by an unexpected heavy shower, and I found out just how poor the braking can be for carbon wheels with rim brakes. I have what people say is the best for these - Swissstop Black Prince pads and a graphene textured rim track, but whoa, it felt REALLY unsafe. I got home without incident. I fell back and trailed the pace line by a good distance. But I don't know what I would have done had there been any serious descents on the remains of the route.
As someone who recently bought LB wheels with the grooved graphene brake track and lives in a hilly area:


Luckily (or unluckily?) it rarely rains in California... except last winter, where it rained continuously for 4 months... during race season...

yeah, Iím not going to lie. Carbon rim brakes are not the best solution in the world. The braking in the dry is modest at best. I 100% could see it being crap in the rain. If nobody in your group ride had disc brakes or alloy rim brakes, I would say youíre fine. But itís 2019 and most groups/races will have a majority of people who have braking power than you do. The safest policy is to have the strongest brakes and the stickiest tires in every group. The more reasonable one is to be close to the average - which it sounds like youíre not.

Last edited by smashndash; 09-04-19 at 11:38 PM.
smashndash is offline  
Old 09-11-19, 10:16 AM
  #17  
Psychocycles
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
If price point is an issue, Canyon have the Ultimate CF SL Disc 8.0 Di2 for $3,700. They also have the CF SL Disc 8.0 for $2800. 7.5/7.6kg vs 6.9, yes, but also half or less the price. Also, a good portion of that weight difference is in the wheels (150g). Personally, if I were eyeing spending $1700 on a wheelset or double that on a whole new bike, it'd be an easy decision for me. N+1 all day long. SL 8.0 w/ upgraded wheels still in the $4000 range, which would be much more palatable for your significant other .

Interesting that you said you have the Black Prince brake pads - I do as well and even in the wet they GRIP my carbon wheels almost the same as in the dry (granted, after 1-1.5 seconds of nothing). Could be the different brake surface between your LB wheels and my wheels?
Psychocycles is offline  
Old 09-12-19, 09:01 AM
  #18  
MinnMan
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 2,824

Bikes: 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011 Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220, 1991 Bianchi Osprey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 503 Post(s)
Liked 32 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by Psychocycles View Post
If price point is an issue, Canyon have the Ultimate CF SL Disc 8.0 Di2 for $3,700. They also have the CF SL Disc 8.0 for $2800. 7.5/7.6kg vs 6.9, yes, but also half or less the price. Also, a good portion of that weight difference is in the wheels (150g). Personally, if I were eyeing spending $1700 on a wheelset or double that on a whole new bike, it'd be an easy decision for me. N+1 all day long. SL 8.0 w/ upgraded wheels still in the $4000 range, which would be much more palatable for your significant other .
Interesting points. Regarding the Canyon, I admit I haven't really done my due diligence. If the difference is chiefly in the wheels or even the group set, then I agree that the price difference may not be warranted. But if the framesets are different, then that would matter to me. But also, my Felt is a really dreamy bike (for me), and as I said earlier, I wouldn't want to replace it with something that didn't excite me.

As to $1700 for the wheels, note that that includes a powermeter.

Originally Posted by Psychocycles View Post
Interesting that you said you have the Black Prince brake pads - I do as well and even in the wet they GRIP my carbon wheels almost the same as in the dry (granted, after 1-1.5 seconds of nothing). Could be the different brake surface between your LB wheels and my wheels?
Hmm, maybe it's a difference in our wheels. But also yesterday I had an interesting experience that may explain some of the differences. There was no rain on the radar yesterday, but instead there was a thick mist that wet everything. The road was wet, our glasses were fogged, and the wheels were bringing up a fine spray. And the brakes worked pretty well. In contrast, in the event that precipitated the original post, it was pouring rain. I think that yesterday, there was not so much water on the rim surface, and that it dried up quickly when I applied the brakes. As you say, there was a slight delay in braking effectiveness, but the brakes worked more or less. In the earlier case, there was so much water everywhere that the rims were continually wetted, and the braking was really poor.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 09-12-19, 09:50 AM
  #19  
Psychocycles
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
How often do you clean the grooves in the brake pads? What I noticed about the Black Prince pads is the material gets loose very easily and gets stuck in the brake pads' grooves, which reduces the water shedding ability. I try to clean out the grooves once a week or whenever I notice there's a substantial amount of gunk in them.
Psychocycles is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
BengalCat
Road Cycling
58
06-11-19 04:48 PM
Dancing Skeleton
Road Cycling
7
06-25-17 02:30 PM
snotrockets
Road Cycling
9
11-21-15 02:14 AM
Seattle Forrest
Road Cycling
48
10-16-11 06:56 PM
dnuzzomueller
Road Cycling
19
06-27-11 10:59 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.