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Why did Titanium not take off amongst Pros?

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Why did Titanium not take off amongst Pros?

Old 09-13-19, 02:40 PM
  #201  
sumgy
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Are there any other color options for a Ti bike besides Ti? If not, that could be a deal breaker for some. The real reason that Ti bikes never caught on with the pros might be because it's a Ti. Maybe if the element was named something like Winatunium(Win for short) then the pros would have adopted it. Ti doesn't really correspond with winning.
I have seen painted Ti bikes, so they are available.
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Old 09-14-19, 10:09 AM
  #202  
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The Litespeed Ultimate line are painted, and as mentioned there are other brands that offer color options.
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Old 09-14-19, 12:14 PM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
The Litespeed Ultimate line are painted, and as mentioned there are other brands that offer color options.
If I was so interested, for coloring I'd go anodized:

Titanium Arts - Leni Fried Designs Handpainted Bicycle Art
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Old 09-15-19, 09:14 PM
  #204  
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This guy must be fun at parties...🙄
Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Give it a rest already. Every thread does not have to be a troll thread.

When I say a quiet ride what I am referring to is more of the plush, muted ride that titanium frames offer. I never mentioned anything about a noisy freehub. I ride old school Dura Ace 7700 hubs on my titanium Veritas and they have a pretty silent freewheeling ratchet sound. But again, I was referring to a ride characteristic of a titanium frame in contrast to, say - a very stiff oversized aluminum frame.
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Old 09-15-19, 11:15 PM
  #205  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
If I was so interested, for coloring I'd go anodized:

Titanium Arts - Leni Fried Designs Handpainted Bicycle Art
I could go for an owl on my seat post.
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Old 09-16-19, 07:31 AM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by Reynolds 531 View Post
This guy must be fun at parties...��
Sure, I’m boring. Its just that on the road forum if anyone mentions anything about liking a titanium bike these juvenile snark remarks come out of the woodwork. Pretty useless contributions. I felt it needed to be addressed.

But maybe I’m missing some secret intention here at the road forum. It seems all this venom might be a type of negative backlash against that previous poster who made such outlandish claims about his titanium bike.
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Old 09-16-19, 08:19 AM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Sure, I’m boring. Its just that on the road forum if anyone mentions anything about liking a titanium bike these juvenile snark remarks come out of the woodwork. Pretty useless contributions. I felt it needed to be addressed.

But maybe I’m missing some secret intention here at the road forum. It seems all this venom might be a type of negative backlash against that previous poster who made such outlandish claims about his titanium bike.
As the first poster of a juvenile and useless—the question of utility is actually quite complex here—reply in this thread, I wish to state that I, like several other such vandals, own and enjoy a Ti frame. I also enjoy a little wit and satire much more than a lot of subjective hooing and hahing about “ride.”
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Old 09-16-19, 08:33 AM
  #208  
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paint joibs

Most pro's ride paint jobs. Unless you have team in front, and a car beside you, you ride whatever is provided.

Get sponsored, get a real bike.
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Old 09-16-19, 08:36 AM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
As the first poster of a juvenile and useless—the question of utility is actually quite complex here—reply in this thread, I wish to state that I, like several other such vandals, own and enjoy a Ti frame. I also enjoy a little wit and satire much more than a lot of subjective hooing and hahing about “ride.”
Fair enough. I figured there was was history behind the juvenile & useless-ness...

Call me a late adopter of a titanium bike. My main ride is a fairly harsh riding aluminum Flyte. When I started riding my Veritas the feel was just so much different. The plushness is certainly subjective, but it is palpable too.

I have written about this Veritas titanium bike in several other threads. For me the titanium frame’s compact geometry might be a contributor not just the frame tube material. Also, I’m using a Ritchey carbon “Flexlogic” post with a Turbomatic Team carbon saddle and I believe that combination really does add a noticeable bit of shock absorption over chip seal roads. As do the latex inner tubes I’m running in Tufo Calibra 23mm clinchers.
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Old 09-16-19, 09:37 AM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Sure, I’m boring. Its just that on the road forum if anyone mentions anything about liking a titanium bike these juvenile snark remarks come out of the woodwork. Pretty useless contributions. I felt it needed to be addressed.

But maybe I’m missing some secret intention here at the road forum. It seems all this venom might be a type of negative backlash against that previous poster who made such outlandish claims about his titanium bike.
Actually, my post was all about the buzzy hubs. Both your response and the post you were responding to were talking about how quiet your bikes were. You then clarified in a later post that you run some quiet DA hubs. So maybe you really have a quiet bike after all. Or maybe you have a set of carbon whoosher rims on that bike and sound like a Harvester cutting grain rolling down the road. You are the only one that can answer that.

Last edited by seypat; 09-16-19 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 09-16-19, 10:05 AM
  #211  
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Since the thread has went through it's cycle and should be closed, here is a question that might give it some more life. I have an old bike with a BB set made out of Ni-Cr. The spindle is steel and the cups/bolts are Ni-Cr. It is a whole lot lighter than any of the rest I have. Was that alloy ever used in a bike frame? If not, why? I don't no squat about metals.

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Old 09-21-19, 08:11 PM
  #212  
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I have worked in the bicycle industry since 1992, I have had opportunity to ride or own just about any other frame material for bicycle frames.
I currently have bikes that are carbon, steel, aluminum..
but I chose titanium because of it is relatively light, no need for paint, no worry for rust and I don't have to wash the bike if it gets dirty.
The PROs don't ride titanium frame because they don't need to keep riding a single bike year after year.
The pros are paid to ride the bikes that will promote sales for the sponsor bike manufacturer.

My oldest ride is a 2001 Litespeed Ultimate that I bought in 2004, I've pedaled over 73k miles with it and it still rides & looks as the first day I got it.
I ride it in all weather conditions, rain, snow, salt, mud, gravel.. only clean the bike once or twice a year, very little care is needed.


I bought a Lynskey disc frame for under $500 back in 2017,
with wider tires & disc brakes and slightly more relaxed riding position,
I look forward to many more years on this Lynskey.


My TT bike for the last 6 or 7 years is a 2004 Litespeed Blade that represents the pinnacle of titanium frame manufacture, with its raw material,
shaped tubes and just man-hour involved in producing the frame:

-6/4 sheets of ti welded together for flat main tubes,
-rear wheel cut out on the seat tube,
-tappered & shapped headtube/toptube/chainstays,
-curved & flattened seatstays,
-every single tube on this frame is worked in someway, (similarly with the Litespeed Ultimate)
all that work require many years of trial & error experience (with expensive material) only Litespeed have.

No other titanium frame manufacturer have similar experience producing frame with those features..
probably because it is too involving and not cost-effective to offer those features on a single titanium frames for the masses.
Even custom titanium frame builders are not likely to have the experience to produce frames with such features with 6/4 ti.


I even have a titanium hardtail, been neglecting it since I bought the Lynskey, mostly became an errand bike for short trips to the grocery store.

Last edited by cat0020; 09-22-19 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 09-21-19, 10:43 PM
  #213  
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I've been riding a Bianchi S9 for a few years now, and it's a great ride for an old guy, not too harsh on our crappy pavement here, but it does have the carbon seat stays. Some guy won Paris-Roubaix on it back in the day....
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Old 09-22-19, 09:44 PM
  #214  
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Originally Posted by cat0020 View Post
My TT bike for the last 6 or 7 years is a 2004 Litespeed Blade that represents the pinnacle of titanium frame manufacture, with its raw material,
shaped tubes and just man-hour involved in producing the frame:

-6/4 sheets of ti welded together for flat main tubes,
-rear wheel cut out on the seat tube,
-tappered & shapped headtube/toptube/chainstays,
-curved & flattened seatstays,
-every single tube on this frame is worked in someway, (similarly with the Litespeed Ultimate)
all that work require many years of trial & error experience (with expensive material) only Litespeed have.

No other titanium frame manufacturer have similar experience producing frame with those features..
probably because it is too involving and not cost-effective to offer those features on a single titanium frames for the masses.
Even custom titanium frame builders are not likely to have the experience to produce frames with such features with 6/4 ti.
I was going to post about this bad boy, but couldn't find a link. Isn't this one of a very limited run of team bikes made at a cost of about $20k per frame?

IIRC, much of the cost was down to getting the damn things straight, thanks to the seam-welded tubes.

Last edited by Kimmo; 09-22-19 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 09-23-19, 04:44 AM
  #215  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo View Post
I was going to post about this bad boy, but couldn't find a link. Isn't this one of a very limited run of team bikes made at a cost of about $20k per frame?
IIRC, much of the cost was down to getting the damn things straight, thanks to the seam-welded tubes.
AFAIK, the original Litespeed Blade production were for the LA Sherriff domestic racing team back in 1992.
That was the only pro team that I know that rode titanium road race frame supplied by a sponsor.
Claimed production cost was upwards of $20k due to the difficulty of working with 6/4 ti and the specific tooling required seemed to wear out quickly.
Only 10 frames were produced before the tools wore out.





1994, LA Sheriff rider Steve Hegg won the National TT championship on a 2nd version Litespeed Blade with 650 front & 700c rear wheel.
1996 Steve Hegg rode in the Olympic TT with a Litespeed Blade:


Lance used to ride a re-badged/painted Litespeed Blade for his TT efforts, before Trek was willing to build him custom carbon TT frames:

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Old 09-23-19, 04:54 AM
  #216  
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Yeah, that's the one! You've got the watered-down production version.

Now I remember, the uber-rare originals are easily identifiable by the top tube, which was aero if the bike was ridden off a cliff, presumably just for the hell of it.

Last edited by Kimmo; 09-23-19 at 04:57 AM.
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Old 09-23-19, 05:18 AM
  #217  
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AFAIK, the identifiable pro Blade frames are in 700c wheels, front & rear.
Mass production Blade frames were 650 wheels front & rear.
In 1994, Steve Hegg had the one-off Blade that had 650 front & 700c rear. I used to own that frame back in 98 or so, but sold it off to buy a house in the early 2000's

The flat top tube was always meant to display the fabrication capability of Litespeed, similarly the aero-cone at the headtube.
They were available in the "water-down" version for the masses, but I don't think many consumer went for those.
Seems to me to be extra weight.


Litespeed made a 6/4 ti dual suspension DH bike named Machete:




I guess with those HED deep wheels, you must do downhill really fast.

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Old 09-23-19, 08:07 AM
  #218  
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Totally forgot, years ago, I bought a Titanium recumbent.. fast, comfy.. good for long hours in the saddle:
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Old 09-23-19, 11:48 AM
  #219  
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Price (TI = expensive)? Stiffness to weight ratio (CF = better)?

Availability? The products used by Pros are eventually sold to the ''ordinary'' people. Mass production is clearly considered when the industry takes a new direction.
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Old 09-23-19, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
Price (TI = expensive)? Stiffness to weight ratio (CF = better)?
The advantage of titanium is that it lasts longer than most other frame materials, requires no paint, requires little to no care.
So if you want a bike that last as long as you can pedal in your lifetime, ideal candidate would be titanium.

Stiffness to weight ratio is a highly personal preference.
Ride quality of carbon frames can very drastically between one carbon manufacturer vs another.
The inconsistency and variable in quality just among one single model within one manufacturer can also be drastically different.

Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
Availability? The products used by Pros are eventually sold to the ''ordinary'' people. Mass production is clearly considered when the industry takes a new direction.
AFAIK, whether specific product makes it from the cycling pros to the masses is highly dependent on the success of the pro team and exposure among regional /international races.
For bicycle manufacturers, sponsoring a team with equipment can produce sales, but the budget vs profit are usually highly guarded secrets.
The bigger the manufacturer, the more likely that the pros will riding something that's available to the masses to promote exposure and sales.
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Old 09-23-19, 12:52 PM
  #221  
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well, a) apparently they used them in the past, just like aluminum bikes, and b) if they really wanted to, they could just rebrand a custom made titanium frame with their logo on it, which has literally also happened in the past. it even occasionally happens now, vis- the fake "Merckx" frames being repainted Ridleys.

like I'm sure titanium bikes are lovely. I just can't get past the whole "what the bike manufacturers DON'T want you to know" thing. Giant and Merida manufacture most of the pro bikes anyway, there's no reason someone couldn't just contract a titanium manufacturer in the same way that Colnago/Ridley/etc do so for their carbon frames.
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Old 09-23-19, 01:01 PM
  #222  
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Originally Posted by cat0020 View Post
The advantage of titanium is that it lasts longer than most other frame materials, requires no paint, requires little to no care.
So if you want a bike that last as long as you can pedal in your lifetime, ideal candidate would be titanium.

Stiffness to weight ratio is a highly personal preference.
Ride quality of carbon frames can very drastically between one carbon manufacturer vs another.
The inconsistency and variable in quality just among one single model within one manufacturer can also be drastically different.


AFAIK, whether specific product makes it from the cycling pros to the masses is highly dependent on the success of the pro team and exposure among regional /international races.
For bicycle manufacturers, sponsoring a team with equipment can produce sales, but the budget vs profit are usually highly guarded secrets.
The bigger the manufacturer, the more likely that the pros will riding something that's available to the masses to promote exposure and sales.
Totally in agreement with you! I however don't believe the bicycle manufacturers want lifetime lasting products - they would eventually go bankrupt if that was the case. It's no coincidence why our goods go obsolete a lot quicker than before. The struggle of livin' in a capitalism regime.
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Old 09-23-19, 01:07 PM
  #223  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
Totally in agreement with you! I however don't believe the bicycle manufacturers want lifetime lasting products - they would eventually go bankrupt if that was the case. It's no coincidence why our goods go obsolete a lot quicker than before. The struggle of livin' in a capitalism regime.
What the manufacturers want is more sales, more profit.
If making a lasting product cut into their own profit,.. hence, how many titanium frame manufacturers have lasted ages without changing ownership?

Ibis: no more titanium frame production

Yeti: no more titanium frame production

Merlin, Litespeed, Seven, etc.. pretty sure they've all changed hands at ownership a few times... survive until the next investor group takes over the company.

Originally Posted by sheddle View Post
I just can't get past the whole "what the bike manufacturers DON'T want you to know" thing. Giant and Merida manufacture most of the pro bikes anyway, there's no reason someone couldn't just contract a titanium manufacturer in the same way that Colnago/Ridley/etc do so for their carbon frames.
AFAIK, for the pro cyclist that wants to ride a titanium frame for competition, likely he spends his own $$ to disguise his personal ride to look similar to the rest of his team, pretty sure that's part of UCI regulation, to have the team ride their team bike or something that look like their team bike.

Last edited by cat0020; 09-23-19 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 09-23-19, 01:12 PM
  #224  
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Yep!
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Old 09-23-19, 07:43 PM
  #225  
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When did this become the "what is the ugliest titanium bike" thread?
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