Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Why did Titanium not take off amongst Pros?

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Why did Titanium not take off amongst Pros?

Old 08-25-19, 06:07 AM
  #126  
Steve B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South shore, L.I., NY
Posts: 3,396

Bikes: Flyxii FR322, Soma Smoothie, Miyata City Liner, Specialized FSR Comp, Fuji Professional

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1169 Post(s)
Liked 54 Times in 41 Posts
Originally Posted by sumgy View Post
So after many years it cracked?
Yes, 1/2 vertical crack right alongside the cable stops on the downtube, parallel to the tube. Baffling place for a crack, never laid over, never crashed. The story was the original paint flaked off after about 2 years of use. Trek - who now owned Lemond, warrantied the frame and re-painted and having originally sold me this frame for $850 as a warranty replacement for a cracked Klein. A year later and the 2nd paint job was flaking off, so seemingly Trek was unaware that titanium requires some special work to keep paint on a titanium and refused to warranty a 2nd time. I then had it painted locally which lasted longer than Trek's version. Crack then developed and Trek refused to warranty as I had it painted not by Trek.

My only point is that Titanium isn't always the miracle metal people portray it. It can be flexy and have a bad initial design. My steel Soma road frame has a stiffer b-bracket. Just the way it goes.
Steve B. is offline  
Old 08-25-19, 08:24 AM
  #127  
sheddle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 605

Bikes: 1986 Bridgestone 300, 2008 Bianchi Eros, 1981 De Rosa Professional

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 46 Posts
just to split the difference, here's an amazing looking Japanese titanium bike that a shop near me has for sale for $2000


guessing back in the day, folks would have considered Panasonic a soulless factory brand, and not a work of art like a Pinarello or something, hah
sheddle is offline  
Old 08-25-19, 11:09 AM
  #128  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 20,620

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1804 Post(s)
Liked 133 Times in 98 Posts
Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I have a feeling that working with composites take a fairly high level of understanding.
The design process certainly does, but once you have the lay-up sequence and specifics determined, it's mostly a matter of following directions.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Likes For JohnDThompson:
Old 08-25-19, 01:27 PM
  #129  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Village, New York City
Posts: 37,572

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1973 Raleigh Twenty, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 440 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5677 Post(s)
Liked 246 Times in 173 Posts
It's not a troll thread. I learned a few things. Thanks, folks.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is online now  
Likes For noglider:
Old 08-25-19, 04:10 PM
  #130  
sumgy
Senior Member
 
sumgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 728
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 52 Posts
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post

My only point is that Titanium isn't always the miracle metal people portray it. It can be flexy and have a bad initial design. My steel Soma road frame has a stiffer b-bracket. Just the way it goes.
No argument there, my steel Concorde Prelude rides at least as smoothly as my Moots.
The breakages of CF I mentioned above, have that brand you mention in common.
sumgy is offline  
Old 08-25-19, 09:05 PM
  #131  
Dean V
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,469
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 857 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 59 Times in 36 Posts
There isn't a pro rider today that would ride Ti by choice.
Carbon simply out performs it in every way that matters to them.
Doesn't mean that you can't make a great bike from Ti though that will be suited to us lesser cyclists.
Dean V is offline  
Old 08-25-19, 09:20 PM
  #132  
aliasfox
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
There isn't a pro rider today that would ride Ti by choice.
Carbon simply out performs it in every way that matters to them.
Doesn't mean that you can't make a great bike from Ti though that will be suited to us lesser cyclists.
I wouldn't say lesser cyclists - I'm sure some pros would appreciate the ride qualities of a titanium bike, just probably not in a race setting.
aliasfox is offline  
Old 08-25-19, 09:34 PM
  #133  
sumgy
Senior Member
 
sumgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 728
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 52 Posts
Originally Posted by aliasfox View Post
I wouldn't say lesser cyclists - I'm sure some pros would appreciate the ride qualities of a titanium bike, just probably not in a race setting.
Well especially when they don't have to pay for their bikes.
I am sure I read that a number of ex-Pro's do ride Ti bikes (post racing) and Cadel Evans trained on a titanium Baum while riding for Canyon, while they built him a custom CF frame that fit him better.
sumgy is offline  
Old 08-25-19, 10:42 PM
  #134  
Trakhak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 1,746
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 393 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 24 Posts
Andy Hampsten was quoted in the 1980s as saying that the only thing scarier than descending on his titanium bike was climbing on his steel bike. But that was before aluminum bikes and then CF bikes moved the goalposts.
Trakhak is offline  
Old 08-25-19, 10:44 PM
  #135  
sumgy
Senior Member
 
sumgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 728
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 52 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
Andy Hampsten was quoted in the 1980s as saying that the only thing scarier than descending on his titanium bike was climbing on his steel bike. But that was before aluminum bikes and then CF bikes moved the goalposts.
Serotta must have made some sh1t bikes back in the 80's then.
sumgy is offline  
Old 08-26-19, 12:07 AM
  #136  
sheddle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 605

Bikes: 1986 Bridgestone 300, 2008 Bianchi Eros, 1981 De Rosa Professional

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 46 Posts
yeah, shockingly racers might not want a dedicated purpose-built racing bike when they're retired and not racing


like, I'm certain that titanium bikes are great and all, but I can never get past the "there's a Taiwanese conspiracy to prevent every team from riding Moots Vamoots frames in every race" stuff. the bikes a team uses when they want to win a stage race are not the same bikes someone would use if they want to have a nice century in the countryside lol.
sheddle is offline  
Old 08-26-19, 01:08 AM
  #137  
colnago62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,560
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 322 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 29 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by sumgy View Post
Serotta must have made some sh1t bikes back in the 80's then.
I thought Andy rode Land Sharks.
colnago62 is offline  
Old 08-26-19, 01:13 AM
  #138  
sumgy
Senior Member
 
sumgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 728
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 52 Posts
Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I thought Andy rode Land Sharks.
Given how bad his bikes apparently were, maybe the team slipped him a real Huffy?
sumgy is offline  
Old 08-26-19, 02:33 AM
  #139  
MyTi
6-4 Titanium
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 31 Times in 28 Posts
Judging by the opinions in this thread the Chinese carbon marketing hype machine has really made people believe that carbon road bikes are some how faster than Ti road bikes...it just goes to show the sheer lack of knowledge in this thread and by BF posters in general.
MyTi is offline  
Likes For MyTi:
Old 08-26-19, 05:49 AM
  #140  
Dean V
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,469
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 857 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 59 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by MyTi View Post
Judging by the opinions in this thread the Chinese carbon marketing hype machine has really made people believe that carbon road bikes are some how faster than Ti road bikes...it just goes to show the sheer lack of knowledge in this thread and by BF posters in general.
So carbon bikes can be made lighter, more aero, and stiffer that Ti.
Please explain how this does not make for a faster bike?
Dean V is offline  
Old 08-26-19, 05:52 AM
  #141  
Jazzguitar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Boston
Posts: 118

Bikes: 2016 Lynskey R240, 2018 Diverge Comp Carbon

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Yes, 1/2 vertical crack right alongside the cable stops on the downtube, parallel to the tube. Baffling place for a crack, never laid over, never crashed. The story was the original paint flaked off after about 2 years of use. Trek - who now owned Lemond, warrantied the frame and re-painted and having originally sold me this frame for $850 as a warranty replacement for a cracked Klein. A year later and the 2nd paint job was flaking off, so seemingly Trek was unaware that titanium requires some special work to keep paint on a titanium and refused to warranty a 2nd time. I then had it painted locally which lasted longer than Trek's version. Crack then developed and Trek refused to warranty as I had it painted not by Trek.

My only point is that Titanium isn't always the miracle metal people portray it. It can be flexy and have a bad initial design. My steel Soma road frame has a stiffer b-bracket. Just the way it goes.
My brother in law has cracked 2 Lemonds, the first at the bottom bracket and, what was the replacement for the first on the downtube near the water bottle bosses. Trek refused to cover the second frame since they no longer deal Lemond so he picked up a Seven. Those Trek Lemonds seemed to be failure prone.
Jazzguitar is offline  
Old 08-26-19, 12:36 PM
  #142  
kydeadhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
Andy Hampsten was quoted in the 1980s as saying that the only thing scarier than descending on his titanium bike was climbing on his steel bike. But that was before aluminum bikes and then CF bikes moved the goalposts.
I'm pretty sure his quote was about descending on a carbon bike being almost as scary as climbing without a carbon bike, this was when he was riding for La Vie Claire on the early LOOK frames. Since he's retired he seems to prefer Ti and steel bikes made by some small builder named Hampsten I believe...

Last edited by kydeadhead; 08-26-19 at 12:37 PM. Reason: typo
kydeadhead is offline  
Likes For kydeadhead:
Old 08-26-19, 12:48 PM
  #143  
sheddle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 605

Bikes: 1986 Bridgestone 300, 2008 Bianchi Eros, 1981 De Rosa Professional

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 46 Posts
Originally Posted by kydeadhead View Post
I'm pretty sure his quote was about descending on a carbon bike being almost as scary as climbing without a carbon bike, this was when he was riding for La Vie Claire on the early LOOK frames. Since he's retired he seems to prefer Ti and steel bikes made by some small builder named Hampsten I believe...
Sadly the Hampsten frame building concern has succumbed to the evil Taiwanese plastic marketing machine.


And finally Squadra, which features custom carbon tube-to-tube frames made right here at HampCo Seattle. Squadra has the stiffness and light weight of an aluminum frame; the plush ride of our favorite steel frames; and the strength and bomb-proof feel of titanium.
sheddle is offline  
Old 08-26-19, 07:44 PM
  #144  
NeilBurt
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 10
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Titanium's dirty little secret

Back in 1999, titanium's heyday, Trek rebadged a Litespeed Blade-4 for Lance to ride during time trials at the Tour. Well, everyone knows Trek never made a titanium bike, so the howls and jeers that came from the streets of the massive crowds watching him that day was mistook by Lance as applauds, and propelled him on to victory. When told the noise was mockery, the shame put upon Lance and the titanium bike industry was irrevocable.
NeilBurt is offline  
Likes For NeilBurt:
Old 08-26-19, 08:14 PM
  #145  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 12,359
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 352 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 63 Posts
Originally Posted by sheddle View Post
just to split the difference, here's an amazing looking Japanese titanium bike that a shop near me has for sale for $2000

guessing back in the day, folks would have considered Panasonic a soulless factory brand, and not a work of art like a Pinarello or something, hah
No, Japanese steel frames were highly regarded back then (early 90s) and there were some true artisan Japanese framebuilders.

Pass on the aluminum fork, however.
big john is offline  
Old 08-26-19, 08:18 PM
  #146  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 12,359
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 352 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 63 Posts
Originally Posted by sumgy View Post
No argument there, my steel Concorde Prelude rides at least as smoothly as my Moots.
The breakages of CF I mentioned above, have that brand you mention in common.
My Seven Axiom Race is about as stiff as a CAAD5 I used to have, just brutal and jarring on rough pavement. My steel Gunnar is a soft ride by comparison.
big john is offline  
Old 08-26-19, 08:25 PM
  #147  
sumgy
Senior Member
 
sumgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 728
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 52 Posts
Originally Posted by big john View Post
My Seven Axiom Race is about as stiff as a CAAD5 I used to have, just brutal and jarring on rough pavement. My steel Gunnar is a soft ride by comparison.
I had a Colnago Master that was a jarring ride like that.
sumgy is offline  
Old 08-26-19, 08:36 PM
  #148  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 12,359
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 352 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 63 Posts
Originally Posted by sumgy View Post
I had a Colnago Master that was a jarring ride like that.
The stiffest bike I ever had was a Tesch s22. Oversize heavy gauge steel frame and fork. Perfect for a 220 pound sprinter-type rider but magnified every little crack in the road.
big john is offline  
Likes For big john:
Old 08-27-19, 01:57 AM
  #149  
Kimmo
bike whisperer
 
Kimmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Melbourne, Oz
Posts: 8,343

Bikes: https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=152015&p=1404231

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 590 Post(s)
Liked 84 Times in 72 Posts
Originally Posted by MyTi View Post
...people believe that carbon road bikes are some how faster than Ti road bikes...it just goes to show the sheer lack of knowledge in this thread and by BF posters in general.
...Aaand there's another three pages, folks
Kimmo is offline  
Likes For Kimmo:
Old 08-28-19, 09:16 PM
  #150  
fuji_owner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 147

Bikes: 2012 Seven Axiom SL; Surly Cross Check

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I have heard 7 Cycles is pretty reasonable. I don’t know much about their frames.

Seven Cycles | Custom-Built Carbon, Titanium and Steel Bicycle Frames
I have a Seven Axiom SL titanium bike:



It's the most beautiful thing ever. I'm going to be buried with it.
fuji_owner is offline  
Likes For fuji_owner:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.