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Newbie Intolerant...

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Newbie Intolerant...

Old 09-04-19, 07:50 AM
  #101  
Moe Zhoost
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Originally Posted by Chicago2 View Post
I'm a newbie and need help. I'd be happy to accumulate 10 posts so I can post a photo--but I don't even know what counts as a post. Does this? Is there a link as to what qualifies as a post? Is there a link about any other newbie restrictions?

Thank you.
Welcome to the forum. Yes, your initial post counts toward the total. Why not go to the Introductions forum and post something about yourself, then go to the Bicycle Mechanics forum to post about your issue. Even without photos, you can start the process of gaining assistance.
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Old 09-04-19, 07:51 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
btw, I think we can all agree that Newbie Intolerant would be an awful name for just about anyone.
I would totally listen to a band called Newbie Intolerant. But they better be a bunch of young guys going for irony.
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Old 09-04-19, 09:11 AM
  #103  
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As I read the situation, which may be totally wrong, if any resentment exists, some of it may be that the long term members here are mostly vintage bicycle enthusiasts.
When a new person logs on here and posts a query regarding the value of a bike they just found, bought or own, it may appear to the enthusiast that the "newbie" is only here to glean information so that they can maximize their gain on the sale of the bike. In other words, take advantage of the knowledge of some members here in order to increase a personal monetary gain.
I've seen lots of these kinds of posts. And it is somewhat understandable that some members are resentful of someone only out to benefit themselves.

On the other hand, I haven't seen any member here be rude or inconsiderate to a new post starter who seems to be genuinely interested in learning about their bicycle and who comes here in good faith to see what they can learn about it. There's a vast vault of good information and knowledge here among members, who are mostly willing to share that knowledge.

Knowledge is power, they say. And knowledge is hard earned. What I've experienced here for the most part are members who are generous in sharing what they know and not lording it over those looking to learn. Or bludgeoning a new person with a sense of superiority, or what I call "the wise old man" syndrome. Thankfully pretty rare here. Which is why I came here instead of other vintage bike forums.
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Old 09-04-19, 09:12 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
btw, I think we can all agree that Newbie Intolerant would be an awful name for just about anyone ... though I don't want to single out anyone if in fact that is your name.
A couple folks (not necessarily in this thread, speaking broadly) could use that as their custom user title.
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Old 09-04-19, 09:15 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
I built my website to help others avoid spending too much money, time and effort when street restoring a vintage bicycle. Bike Forums, particularly the Classic and Vintage forum, should also, and is, helpful to others, with one important exception - BF is not newbie friendly. Let me explain...

Many people, no everyone, come here, for the first time, seeking information regarding this bike or that bike that they want to sell or just bought. We, the notnewbies, politely insist on photos, and rightfully so, to assist with appraisals and/or identifications.

Without ten posts, the person seeking information is, well, not getting much for a while. Ten posts, and I understand the need for scam prevention, is not newbie friendly. So, does anyone have any ideas that might help find a way for the new comers to share pics faster, facilitating their needs and helping us to do the same thing?

My thought was, when a newbie attempts to post a picture, he or she can be linked to a page that will offer the opportunity to get "fully active" quickly. I really don't know much about making websites, and new information technology, but I do know a pain in the butt, when I encounter one. My question, or intent, is to ask other members if they might have an idea to make the newbie firewall go away?

Sorry, this is one thing that I do not have a picture for:-(
I made the suggestion in the "forum suggestions" area just now.

I notice a lot of new users able to immediately post new topics without having a posting history. That tends to cater to spam and trolls.

I think 10 posts is fair before being allowed to start new topics.

IMO.
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Old 09-04-19, 03:29 PM
  #106  
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The easiest way to get by the 10 post rule is for them to go into the introductions forum and say "Welcome to Bike Forums" to 5 people one day, then 5 the next.
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Old 09-04-19, 03:38 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by machinist42 View Post
My point is this:

THERE IS NO 10 POST RULE!

As long as there are workarounds, (such as what I did in my first post (which had pics), over a thousand posts ago, upload directly from my computer, or whatever that guy did), every time a BF member tells a new visitor they need ten posts to post a photo, they are lying to them. And if you want to dishearten, discourage and drive off prospective new BF members, there is no better way than by lying to them. I cringe every single time some BF member tells someone they need ten posts.

Be honest.
If those of us who believe there is a 10 post rule simply say so, we are not lying.
There is a rule, and if you have a "reach..er, work-around," good for you.

Next time you see a stop sign, ignore it, and tell yourself there is no sign.
Just don't go telling everyone else there is isn't one.

You are out of line at first reading, but I saw your clarification later, and good on you.
If it pains you to see the 10-post rule mentioned, I suggest read something else, then you can stop cringing.
Your poor offered advice simply creates problems.

Be honest. Be careful.
Someday you may meet someone who doesn't take being called a liar as casually as you say it.
That person may be someone you honestly don't want to say that to.

And good luck with Dorian. Many people don't realize that much of NC's coastline runs West to East.
Not fun with a storm heading North. Hopefully, the Blockade Runner won't end up like Shell Island.
Things can get back to normal and calabash-style plates of piping hot shrimp, hush puppies, and slaw will again abound.
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Old 09-04-19, 03:44 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I think 10 posts is fair before being allowed to start new topics.

IMO.
Do I hear 12? Going? Going?
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Old 09-04-19, 03:46 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
As I read the situation, which may be totally wrong, if any resentment exists, some of it may be that the long term members here are mostly vintage bicycle enthusiasts.
When a new person logs on here and posts a query regarding the value of a bike they just found, bought or own, it may appear to the enthusiast that the "newbie" is only here to glean information so that they can maximize their gain on the sale of the bike. In other words, take advantage of the knowledge of some members here in order to increase a personal monetary gain.
I've seen lots of these kinds of posts. And it is somewhat understandable that some members are resentful of someone only out to benefit themselves.
Many here don't remember what "$3.50" meant.
It was humorous, cantankerous, and confusing at the same time.
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Old 09-04-19, 04:27 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Many here don't remember what "$3.50" meant.
It was humorous, cantankerous, and confusing at the same time.
I need about tree fiddy.
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Old 09-04-19, 04:57 PM
  #111  
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I don’t discriminate; I’m intolerant of everyone.
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Old 09-04-19, 06:14 PM
  #112  
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Do Flat Earthers Lie When They Say The World Ain't Round?

Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
If those of us who believe there is a 10 post rule simply say so, we are not lying.
There is a rule, and if you have a "reach..er, work-around," good for you.

Next time you see a stop sign, ignore it, and tell yourself there is no sign.
Just don't go telling everyone else there is isn't one.

You are out of line at first reading, but I saw your clarification later, and good on you.
If it pains you to see the 10-post rule mentioned, I suggest read something else, then you can stop cringing.
Your poor offered advice simply creates problems.

Be honest. Be careful.
Someday you may meet someone who doesn't take being called a liar as casually as you say it.
That person may be someone you honestly don't want to say that to.

And good luck with Dorian. Many people don't realize that much of NC's coastline runs West to East.
Not fun with a storm heading North. Hopefully, the Blockade Runner won't end up like Shell Island.
Things can get back to normal and calabash-style plates of piping hot shrimp, hush puppies, and slaw will again abound.


Originally Posted by machinist42 View Post
Pretty darn certain the "posting from your own computer's files" workaround still works. I suggested it to someone a month or two ago and their next post had photos. If I have time before Dorian arrives I'll prove it. If not, then when the power and interwebs come back, whenever that might be.

Did he purchase the membership before or after he incorrectly posted to C&V rather than Sales?

In any event, purchasing a premium membership is a proven workaround to the "10 Post Rule", isn't it?

In no way do I mean to imply BFers intentionally mislead.

(My criticism of his photographs was meant to be "Wackily" humourous, but instead reads cruel and certainly was unnecessary. I will delete. Please accept my apologies.)


Maybe you missed the bit I've emphasized above.

I cringe, but I don't criticize. I abide by the group consensus. My point is that there are workarounds which render the rule essentially meaningless, arbitrary and capricious.

Your analogy with the stop sign is flawed. If the stop sign had "fine print", say, "except when turning right", or "unless you are on a bicycle", and everyone was still stopping...that would be more analogous.

In Appraisals now it is much more common for a BF member to mention the OP can upload to an album in the Gallery, and we'll pic assist from there. That "workaround" also "runs the stop sign".

I don't care whether the 10 post rule is removed, or not, but as long as there are workarounds, the rule has very little real meaning. and maintaining there is a rule is misleading.


Hah, Blockade Runner and Shell Island only recently reopened fully. I've spent a lot of time at both places, over the years.

Flo picked off the low hanging fruit last year, toppling weak trees and structures. We are hoping Dorian is facing a slightly more hardened Wilmington.

About half my neighborhood has fled.

Thanks for your well wishes!
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Old 09-04-19, 07:20 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by RobbieTunes View Post
Many here don't remember what "$3.50" meant.
It was humorous, cantankerous, and confusing at the same time.
Or "Drewed."

Speaking of which, I'll give you $3.50 for your $3.50.

-Kurt
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Old 09-04-19, 08:31 PM
  #114  
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Ugggghhh! That's about all I can come up with. Ugggghhh, I'll say it again. A thread on the 10 posts rule and members being intolerant. 10 posts, how hard is it really to get those completed? If it's really that hard, then put up a sticky for the noobs to get their 10. Give them the 411 on what to do. I guess I am just being intolerant of threads about noob intolerance. I'm trying to come up with a pun or snappy wordplay, but the well is dry at the moment.
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Old 09-04-19, 08:59 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Siu Blue Wind View Post
The easiest way to get by the 10 post rule is for them to go into the introductions forum and say "Welcome to Bike Forums" to 5 people one day, then 5 the next.
I don't know about that. That sounds really hard. On a more serious note, go down the thread list and pick some. There are "show us your cat" and "show us your dog" threads. That's good for 4 posts in the 2 days! Plenty of various bike porn threads. 10 posts in 2 days. Come on, easy peasy lemon squeezy.
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Old 09-05-19, 03:14 AM
  #116  
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Most of you have dramatically missed my point. I am totally in favor of preventing Spam and the ten post rule does that just fine. My question was - How can BF achieve the same level of protection without making the new person jump through present and, perhaps, unnecessary hoops?

The problem with the two many hoops rule (10 posts) might (should be will) drive first timers away! For those who did not return, there will never be a picture but it did and still does happen. To that add that, sooner or later, a guy like me will become fed up with the situation and reduce my attempts to assist, making me a partially lost customer. Please do not tell me that this is not going to happen...

I have long passed the point of spending much time in the appraisal forum, simply because I have to wait for Mr. or Mz. BF newbie to spend two days, getting his or her posts so that he or she can show me what the heck they are talking about. With that in mind, now...

BF is loosing some of the experts willingness to share advice as well as the newbies (who tend to not hoop jump and come back to hoop jump for a second day or any day thereafter).


I am, or used to be an industrial mechanic (Millwright) but my strong documentation skills got me promoted to a builder of Management Systems for quality assurance and environmental protection. What I learned is - make a product or service that is easy to use and effective and it will sell or serve well. Make is not easy to use, though it might be effective later on, drives potential customers away. And none of us will ever know how many were driven away, never to return again. That is a poor model for business growth, in my opinion.

Anyway, I have seen thoughts that I would not have considered, show up in this thread. And, I, too, noted a bit of "it bugs me to help some people" comments surface. Trust me, I do understand how some of the inane requests for "what kind of bike do I have and how much is it worth?" can prove frustrating. Let's pool our well of creativity, until we have a lake full of creative thought and fix this.
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Old 09-05-19, 05:24 AM
  #117  
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Now I understand the rules and the rationale I think the ten post requirement is perfectly reasonable. It's not a shame at all - it's a simple qualifying rule.
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Old 09-05-19, 05:33 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
Most of you have dramatically missed my point. I am totally in favor of preventing Spam and the ten post rule does that just fine. My question was - How can BF achieve the same level of protection without making the new person jump through present and, perhaps, unnecessary hoops?

The problem with the two many hoops rule (10 posts) might (should be will) drive first timers away! For those who did not return, there will never be a picture but it did and still does happen. To that add that, sooner or later, a guy like me will become fed up with the situation and reduce my attempts to assist, making me a partially lost customer. Please do not tell me that this is not going to happen...

I have long passed the point of spending much time in the appraisal forum, simply because I have to wait for Mr. or Mz. BF newbie to spend two days, getting his or her posts so that he or she can show me what the heck they are talking about. With that in mind, now...

BF is loosing some of the experts willingness to share advice as well as the newbies (who tend to not hoop jump and come back to hoop jump for a second day or any day thereafter).


I am, or used to be an industrial mechanic (Millwright) but my strong documentation skills got me promoted to a builder of Management Systems for quality assurance and environmental protection. What I learned is - make a product or service that is easy to use and effective and it will sell or serve well. Make is not easy to use, though it might be effective later on, drives potential customers away. And none of us will ever know how many were driven away, never to return again. That is a poor model for business growth, in my opinion.

Anyway, I have seen thoughts that I would not have considered, show up in this thread. And, I, too, noted a bit of "it bugs me to help some people" comments surface. Trust me, I do understand how some of the inane requests for "what kind of bike do I have and how much is it worth?" can prove frustrating. Let's pool our well of creativity, until we have a lake full of creative thought and fix this.
You lost me when you referenced 10 posts as jumping through hoops
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Old 09-05-19, 06:38 AM
  #119  
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You lost me when you referenced 10 posts as jumping through hoops
An old saying, I guess, that means doing what I want before you get what you want. If you want to post pictures (what you want), over two day period you must post ten times(what BF wants). The hoop is the exercise presented by Bike Forums.
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Old 09-05-19, 06:59 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by wiggles_world View Post
I'm a complete newbie and I want to identify a bike I just purchased. Without that info it's hard for me to get parts and refurbish the bike properly. It's a shame I can't post images and get a little help.
This is a common misunderstanding newbies have.

All bikes use parts from just a handful of manufacturers. The actual brand, model, and year of a bike have never entered into my consideration of parts and refurbishment. I have pretty much completely stopped worrying about model and year. The uniqueness of any bike, such as seat post OD and bottom bracket shell threading, can be found by measuring the bike you have.

As far as Randy's jumping through hoops, perhaps you can come up with a better method to prevent the spam. The current "rule of ten" seems to be working well.

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Old 09-05-19, 07:14 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Seriously, 99.9% of lawyers are not capable of doing the kinds of cycle assessments we do.
I frequently suggest we should replace the word "appraisal" with the word "opinion". Paid appraisals are available out there, there are professionals that provide that service. I have my doubts such a paid for appraisal would be as accurate as the opinions voiced here.

When I give a value, it is solely my opinion and is in no way an appraisal.
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Old 09-05-19, 07:17 AM
  #122  
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Think about the history of volunteerism, hard work, time and thoughtfulness that went into nurturing these forums into a valuable resource. Do we really need to cater to the immediate gratification of every Joe who finds an old bike to fix? If Joe has dug a layer or two into a google search, he's likely to see the value in spending a couple of days hanging out here so he can expand his knowledge with subject matter experts.
I'm not overly concerned about someone too impatient to make some posts.
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Old 09-05-19, 07:27 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by cinco View Post
Read it again, but change the word "bitterness" to "toxicity". Much of what I've seen is a bunch of people who think they're important complaining about the inconvenience of helping people. That attitude probably drives away more good new members than the post-count thing. Randyjawa, so far, is the only person who's come out strongly in favor of helping people, and it was suggested that he is wasting his time. When people like him are in the minority, as they seem to be, things tend not to improve over time. I see more arrogance and entitlement among the high-post-count users than the newbies around here.
Endless people on this forum routinely come out to help people they do not know and haven't met (even the high post count users). Driving out high post count users just eliminates that source of knowledge. Randy is one of them. To get access to such expertise, at no cost, is quite a blessing for sure. Many of these high post counters are also donors to local co-ops, in bikes/parts, cash, and mechanic time. They give back a lot behind the scenes.

As far as entitlement goes, I see just as much or more from new posters, who want to know the exact year, model, and value of their bike, and want to know NOW. And then proceed to argue on value once someone tells them their barn find bike is not as valuable as they think.

I am on a fiberglass RV forum, and the two most knowledgeable people on the brand of vintage trailer I own have vacated the list. I miss their knowledge a lot. Since no thread is complete without pictures, here's my 1977 Trillium 1300.



1977 Trillium 1300 Mt Pisgah NP CG by wrk101, on Flickr

Last edited by wrk101; 09-05-19 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 09-05-19, 08:02 AM
  #124  
conspiratemus1
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
...making me a partially lost customer. Please do not tell me that this is not going to happen...

...That is a poor model for business growth, in my opinion.

....

I'm confused. How is this forum a "business" with "customers" in any sense that applies to us as readers and posters? I don't pay anything to surf the site and ignore the ads. I find it hard to believe the site owners make much money off it. (But then in the early days I couldn't imagine how Google could ever make money, so call me stupid.) If the people who own the site think they need to grow their business in any direction other than the one it is going, that's up to them. If they get it wrong, their business fails. Not every potential customer is worth having. You like to have customers who actually buy your stuff (instead of helping themselves to free samples), who pay on time, and who don't abuse your staff, especially staff who are volunteers. Ideally you dissuade the rest from even coming into your shop. If you want to grow your business to go after less-than-ideal customers you need a plan to amass the capital and labour necessary to fuel the expansion and be willing to put up with the demands of a more challenging customer base -- not every dentist wants to own a chain of dental practices. But those calls are made by the dentist-entrepreneur, the one with money at stake, not the random potential patient with a toothache who may know lots about the quality of the dentist's service, but nothing at all about the business of running a dental practice.

For people who've never been "in business", it's hard sometimes to accept that "improving the customer experience" is worth doing only if increases operating profit, the golden fruit that gives a business the right to continue operating with shareholder money. Merely increasing foot traffic into the store is counterproductive if it's mostly shoplifters or "difficult" customers who contribute only to overhead. Fortunately most customers are nice and a policy of "goods satisfactory or money refunded", as my father honoured, is a not a recipe for ruin. But (until VISA) he took only cash on the barrelhead for payment. And he didn't actively solicit the repeat business of people who were always returning stuff. Now, if he'd had one or two big customers who generated say, half our sales and two-fifths of our profit, he would naturally have worked with them to make the ordering and delivery as smooth as possible and reduce the hoops they had to jump through, and the price, too, to keep that customer. But the guy/gal who was never satisfied with what little s/he did buy, who was always saying, "OK, I'll take my business elsewhere," Dad would just smile and wish him/her a good day. (Often she'd be back.) Customers who said, "I think you should give credit or take my cheque," got a polite "No."

The site owners have a 10-post rule that works for them and their staff. Theirs is the only opinion that matters and a mod has already stated it. That should be the end of it. Anyone who thinks the surfing public should not have to face such a rule is free to buy a domain and set up his own site without that rule, run it like a food bank perhaps. But you might become a millionaire, who knows?
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Old 09-05-19, 08:12 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by wrk101 View Post
Endless people on this forum routinely come out to help people they do not know and haven't met (even the high post count users). Driving out high post count users just eliminates that source of knowledge. Randy is one of them. To get access to such expertise, at no cost, is quite a blessing for sure. Many of these high post counters are also donors to local co-ops, in bikes/parts, cash, and mechanic time. They give back a lot behind the scenes.

As far as entitlement goes, I see just as much or more from new posters, who want to know the exact year, model, and value of their bike, and want to know NOW. And then proceed to argue on value once someone tells them their barn find bike is not as valuable as they think.

I am on a fiberglass RV forum, and the two most knowledgeable people on the brand of vintage trailer I own have vacated the list. I miss their knowledge a lot. Since no thread is complete without pictures, here's my 1977 Trillium 1300.



1977 Trillium 1300 Mt Pisgah NP CG by wrk101, on Flickr
Wow! Talk about pristine condition, this is a good example of it.
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