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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

We're going to yell at you.

Old 06-02-06, 09:47 AM
  #101  
Smoothie104
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Originally Posted by patentcad
But the OP didn't HAVE a point. Not really. And if you think he did - hey, it's your life, but I'd focus on things that matter. Speaking of which WHAT AM I doing on this board again? Forgive me, that won't happen again soon.

14 minutes....
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Old 06-02-06, 09:48 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by patentcad
I ALWAYS wear my iPod specifically so I won't have to hear anyone YELLING at me over a BICYCLE RIDE. .
If you were to show up in one of our pace lines wearing earbuds you'd be asked politely (the first time) to either remove them or get out of the paceline. It's just plain stupid on your part to get in close quarters at high speed with your ears plugged.


As for Events OP, he's right, most of you may not like the tone he used but crashing is very likely if you aren't experienced enough to hang with the big boys. I was lucky in the fact that the first club I joined had a group that taught us new fish the ways of the paceline. As I got faster and started racing I was already in the know and comfortable in tight quarters.
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Old 06-02-06, 09:49 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
If you were to show up in one of our pace lines wearing earbuds you'd be asked politely (the first time) to either remove them or get out of the paceline. It's just plain stupid on your part to get in close quarters at high speed with your ears plugged.
Damn right!

Its stupid to do it in general while riding
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Old 06-02-06, 09:56 AM
  #104  
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Freds vs. Racers....

I like it!

There is an old saying that applies...about heat... a kitchen...and staying out....
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Old 06-02-06, 09:58 AM
  #105  
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We all aspire to be macho-elitist jerks in one form or another. Go anyplace where there could be the slightest possibility of competition. Go to a gym where no one there is training to be the next Mr. Olympia but everyone wants to lift more than the next guy. Go to a bowling alley, or a golf range, or poker table, most guys want to be the best. And when they feel like they have reached that self imagined pinnacle in sight of their peers, it will not go unnoticed. It may be slight; like a new twinkle in his eye or a bounce in his step. He may throw his chest out more or speak a little loftier. It could be more exaggerated like a false sense of ownership of the establishment he dwells or even slaving a junior “Mr. Man” to fetch his thing and worship him while he does what he so good at. Whatever the case, a single egocentric jerk can be somewhat harmless.

But when 20 or so men think they have reached an untouchable class, watch out. People die.
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Old 06-02-06, 10:01 AM
  #106  
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Let me get this straight.

They're elitist because they don't want to be taken out by a new guy that doesn't know how to work well in a tight group? Right....
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Old 06-02-06, 10:17 AM
  #107  
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In all seriousness -- what about getting some jerseys made up that say "TRAINING - DO NOT DRAFT" or something to keep the newbies off your wheel? Ranting online is fine, but you're not likely to reach the people you're trying to educate that way.
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Old 06-02-06, 10:20 AM
  #108  
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THe way I see it is rather simple. For I am a simple person. If a person is able to latch onto the last wheel of a fast paceline (and more importantly- stay there until he finds himself upfront) he would most likely be familiar enough with pack riding to not be too put off by being yelled at due to some error. In that sense I agree with the OP completely.

You are training and are riding a race pace for correct training. Do yourselves a huge favor and create a club and design and issue jerseys. It's been mentioned before i know. But it would thwart at least 70% of all your woes.

I KNOW that if I saw your mini peloton barreling down the street with all riders wearing the same jersey- I would NOT attempt to jump in (no matter how much fun I know I'd have).
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Old 06-02-06, 10:30 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
Freds vs. Racers....

I like it!

There is an old saying that applies...about heat... a kitchen...and staying out....
There's a way to interact with other people that doesn't make you and your sport look bad. Why is it that anyone who calls out the snobbery of the sport is all of a sudden labeled a fred?

I've ridden in fast pacelines, and I've seen people get dropped, and have been dropped myself. Even covered my share of gaps. Does the fact that I've actually uttered words of encouragement in a paceline and talked someone through how to ride in one make me a fred?

That's right--if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. And when you wonder why people call you a snob or an elitist you can just go home and hang out with your racer buddies and revel in the coolness of your rotating double paceline that takes pride in being too cool for newcomers.

Because really--if it were all about training "at the highest level possible," wouldn't you want to practice sprinting to cover breaks, reacting to obstacles, etc.?

Understand that it's not your riding or the rules of the paceline that I have any problem with--it's your superiority complex and your oh-so-condescending OP, because quite honestly, I don't want your attitude in any way to reflect on me as a cyclist or racer.

DrPete
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Old 06-02-06, 10:45 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by teamawe
I always laugh seeing rec level riders posting in threads like this and using it as justification for riding alone. Ride alone if you want, but until you have been in a double paceline hammering at 99% of max and trying to see the wheel in front of you through your sweat (and the sweat flying off the guys in front of you) dont justify yourself by judging those who have.

As for a grab of the jersey, do some of you folks realize how much contact there is at race pace? A soft touch to the hip to let a guy know that you are passing or next to him (so he doesnt swerve into you) etc. Make you feel alot safer knowing that others are comunicating for mutual safety.

As for yelling, /sigh, I cant hear crap at 20mph much less 30.

I'm not elite, dont race, but ride lots and do it as fast as I can. I have worked VERY hard to be in the shape I am and can't fathom the dedication it takes to be a 1 or 2. That can all be taken away by someones inexperience. Folks like to talk about racers 5k bikes, its more the years of training and last 3 4 or 5 months of pure pain they have gone thru to get in the shape they are in that racers fear losing. They have an INVESTMENT they are trying to protect. We participate in a dangerous sport, they are at the front end of that. I have NEVER met a guy that wouldnt help a noob out when asked, so long as it wasnt while he was training.
great post.

might I add:

ES probably doesn't care if people think he's a snob. He's gettin' the job done. And it's their paceline with their own internal dynamics. Elitist? If he's haulin' at 30 mph in a paceline, he's at a different level than most folks. At those speeds he's in a different world. CAT 2? Close enough to elite for me. Remember, one's not elite for very long. So if you're there or close to being there; more power to you. But if you step on people while you're "up" there; they might not catch you when you come down. DrPete was right ... the OP was condescending. But he's contributed a lot here so it's a wash.

People, if he's yelling at you. Get thicker skin. Call him names if you want. Learn. It's pretty hard to articulate when your HR is above LT. So, it's not personal. Thing is. He's not yelling at you. Don't take offense. Or judge. Or get so riled up.
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Old 06-02-06, 11:00 AM
  #111  
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In our club all new riders have to first ride once with our development ride. We go over the ins and outs of a double rotating pace line just to make sure everyone understands the ins and outs. This does peeve some stronger riders, as their “egos” get in the way of ever being associated with a “C” level ride. But it really does help. It helps the new riders get familiar with all the local pace line “rules” and also lets them quickly judge at what level they are that.

This really is not a snob thing, just trying to make sure a new member is able to slide into the right level.
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Old 06-02-06, 11:08 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Smoothie104
14 minutes....
Dude, get me wrong, I really do LIKE your posts. No offense intended. Just friendly banter. As friendly as it gets here in Weenie World of course....
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Old 06-02-06, 11:09 AM
  #113  
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>>We all aspire to be macho-elitist jerks in one form or another. <<

Bingo. Well said.
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Old 06-02-06, 11:14 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by DrPete
Because really--if it were all about training "at the highest level possible," wouldn't you want to practice sprinting to cover breaks, reacting to obstacles, etc.?
Because in a paceline, all you should be practicing is the paceline. It is it's own thing. You don't want to sprint. Should you be able to cover gaps? Of course. But that's not the point of a paceline.

Obviously anything can happen in a race. So that's why you do intervals and sprint training, hill repeats, and long hammerfest rides that are or include paceline drills. That's why there are different types of training rides that cover different things.

As someone who is very new to riding in a paceline, I have been yelled at more than once. I appreciate it, and I know it isn't personal. I also get, "good job" or "that's it" when I correct my mistake and do it right. The compliments aren't personal either. They're reinforcement. The point is to learn. The best reinforcement is when I feel and know that I'm doing it right and I don't get talked to at all.

And if a huge rotating group passed me at 30mph, the last thing I would do (even if I could) is jump on and jump in the line. Who the heck thinks that's a good idea?
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Old 06-02-06, 11:30 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by substructure
We all aspire to be macho-elitist jerks in one form or another. Go anyplace where there could be the slightest possibility of competition. Go to a gym where no one there is training to be the next Mr. Olympia but everyone wants to lift more than the next guy. Go to a bowling alley, or a golf range, or poker table, most guys want to be the best. And when they feel like they have reached that self imagined pinnacle in sight of their peers, it will not go unnoticed. It may be slight; like a new twinkle in his eye or a bounce in his step. He may throw his chest out more or speak a little loftier. It could be more exaggerated like a false sense of ownership of the establishment he dwells or even slaving a junior “Mr. Man” to fetch his thing and worship him while he does what he so good at. Whatever the case, a single egocentric jerk can be somewhat harmless.

But when 20 or so men think they have reached an untouchable class, watch out. People die.
Funny you should bring Bowling up. I Bowl competitivly and beleive it or not there are similar situations. Example, In a tourny with 2 lane courtesy (eg a PBA Regional) there is a specific time when it's my turn to bowl. If I go too soon (step up on someone) or too slow it can disrupt the flow and concentration of Bowlers on several pairs around me. If I do this once I may get a dirty look, twice I may get yelled at.

Would I get pissed at a 10 year old rec bowler if he didn't give me lane courtesy open bowling? No. Am I an elitist snob for expecting courtesy, and treating transgressions differently in a more competitive setting? I don't think so. Time and place, if you ride with the big boys and do something stupid you get yelled at. Simple, direct, nothing personal.
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Old 06-02-06, 11:40 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by PenguinDeD
Let me get this straight.

They're elitist because they don't want to be taken out by a new guy that doesn't know how to work well in a tight group? Right....

No. Only when they think harming someone's life to maintain the complexities of theirs.
Dragging someone out by the shirt because he hasn't caught on does not a man make.

On the other hand, people DO need to learn the ins and outs of their sport or activity. Especially when others are involved. If they choose not to recognize the right way and wrong way, then they shouldn't be there.
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Old 06-02-06, 11:54 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by botto
Guess you've never had it done to you? There's not much time to react, let alone 'backfist' or plant a cleat in a hip, when you're riding over 30 MPH one second, then slungshot backwards the next
Well, I never said I could hang with a 30mph pace line and I've never had my jersey pulled! If you ever make your way here to the U.S., be sure to stop by Boston. We can go out for a ride together and you can be the very pull my jersey. God help me it would be the last time you'd pull that bull***** on anyone. It would get real ghetto in the suburbs.

It would make more sense to ride a private paceline and inform outside riders of the fact. Why even allow them in the line if you don't know them?

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Old 06-02-06, 12:02 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by patentcad
But the OP didn't HAVE a point. Not really. And if you think he did - hey, it's your life, but I'd focus on things that matter. Speaking of which WHAT AM I doing on this board again? Forgive me, that won't happen again soon.
Uhhh, as a newbie roadie I read it and 'got it'.

The point was: Just because you're fast enough to hang in a paceline doesn't mean that you are experienced enough to. If you make the following mistakes, you will endanger/inconvenience and upset the members of the paceline.

While the tone wasn't brilliantly welcoming, I can understand how someone would feel hostile towards folks who keep butting in (even though it's not a 'private' paceline). I get the impression that if you can hang, and have the experience to do it safely, you'd be welcome to join. However, the group is in 'training' mode, they don't have the time or inclination to slow it down, spread apart, and give instruction to the people who don't have the knowlege to be there. It sounds like those people would be welcome on the 'Wednesday night' rides.

It's amazing how eager people are to take something in the most hostile, negative way possible, and respond in kind.

Maybe EventServices has a reason to be grouchy? Maybe one of these 'Fast Freds' hit his dog or something.

-Greg
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Old 06-02-06, 12:11 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by substructure
...Dragging someone out by the shirt because he hasn't caught on does not a man make.

On the other hand, people DO need to learn the ins and outs of their sport or activity. Especially when others are involved. If they choose not to recognize the right way and wrong way, then they shouldn't be there.
Come on now! Where else is a sickly 130lb spandex clad, ex-high school marching band member, dungeons and dragons playing, geek going to exert some physical authority besides his holier than thou paceline??!! I mean these guys have been getting pushed around since they've been waiting for the bus for kindergarten, so cut them some slack, eh?

Just kidding (mostly). I say all of the OP's rules are fine as long as they're noted before the ride starts. And if someone univitingly jumps on to the group mid-ride, then YELLING at them when they're putting the safety of themselves and others at risk sounds pretty appropriate to me.
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Old 06-02-06, 12:19 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76
..... Example, In a tourny with 2 lane courtesy (eg a PBA Regional) there is a specific time when it's my turn to bowl. If I go too soon (step up on someone) or too slow it can disrupt the flow and concentration of Bowlers on several pairs around me. If I do this once I may get a dirty look, twice I may get yelled at.....
If you want to see folks get all surly reall quick-like, try screwing up the cadence on a trap line during a tournament. Yowsa - those boys get pissy really fast...... and they've got guns.


I gave it up - skeet is much more civilized........
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Old 06-02-06, 12:25 PM
  #121  
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This thread is one of the reasons I just churn along solo.
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Old 06-02-06, 12:50 PM
  #122  
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Tom's post has given me inspiration for a new sig...something like this:

I ride solo

Translation: I am unwilling, disinclined, unable, not socially adept enough, or afraid to ride in a group/paceline, but I withold the right to pass judgment on those who arent any of the above. And will post in every thread possible the fact that I ride solo.
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Old 06-02-06, 01:00 PM
  #123  
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Even when I'm in a 30mph paceline I'm riding solo. You don't really think I want to hear that racer weenie bull**** do you? Please. I'm trying to remember when verbal communication really had any place or meaningful function in those situations, but generally it's just idiots yelling 'CAR UP' (the ones I can see) and 'CAR BACK!!' (the ones I can hear right through my headphones by the way) at the top of their lungs. Other than riding SMOOTH, not making sudden motions and pointing out road hazards with your arms (NOT with your mouth by screaming HOLE!!!!), there is really no reason for any of that. What do I know after doing this for umpteen miles? Now I'll get **** for even saying that.

Yes, it's old and tired reading this hooey, but it IS entertaining.
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Old 06-02-06, 01:07 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by patentcad
I'm trying to remember when verbal communication really had any place or meaningful function in those situations, but generally it's just idiots yelling 'CAR UP' (the ones I can see) and 'CAR BACK!!' (the ones I can hear right through my headphones by the way) at the top of their lungs. .
Car up, Car back. That uhh tells me all I really needed to know about your "pacelines". Now I understand why you dont understand.
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Old 06-02-06, 01:07 PM
  #125  
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Doctor Who: nice Spiritualized avatar.
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