Doge

I guess some folks don't like the linemen defending the QB in that very watched USA game. It would be very interesting without them. Shoot - don't stop the clock either and you have Rugby 7s - which is very exciting.

The designated leader got there way before we show up for the event through some combination of talent, hard work, politics and compromises.
The Domo gets to be on the winning team without as much of what the leader did.

Rajflyboy

Doge

Well, it is not simple.
A bicycle and the profession of bike racing are entirely different things.

The stuff apart from the bicycle is rather significant.

Rajflyboy

Doge

I understand you like and respect that. That is a huge family value and my wife and son are extremely good, I am a fan, but that is not a pro cycling thing.

In light of a Professional Cycling For the Fans forum and my assumption this is a road thread, that mean making money to at least pay the bills (my definition).

Pro bike racing pays for winning from head to head competitions. Being part of a team and winning, or helping others on your team to win pays. That is done by and using drafting.

As far as I know other than the ITT as part of a stage race, or world championships or some sponsors getting behind an hour record attempt - going fast without drafting is not a profession = no money!

Drafting e bikes has winning and money in it. The Kerin has just that, and you can make a decent living on it in Japan.

Rajflyboy

Doge

Getting pretty far from the forum topic now, but if money is not an issue, there is always a smaller pond and beat up on those in it. Well, some can.
I was pretty good in Kenya. Some of the guys I road with I saw in the 84 Olympic RR and they were off the back the first hill, so they were not drafting anymore.
There is less draft off-the-back - that was my technique. Also less on hills :-).

There are a number of riders that think were World Tour domestique material, but didn't do that for whatever reasons. They win all around domestically, even win in some smaller tours.
They live on winnings, and maybe have a few other day jobs. USA has had a chiropractor as National Champion. One of our greatest (Hall of Fame) riders Wayne Stenia won a bunch in the USA. He is a Shimano VP, but I think could have easily been a WT domestique. Wayne, I think could have been more. His nephew, Peter is a WT pro. Daniel Holloway was a pro, now a Cat 1 and I think has a day job. That guy is fast fast fast (he also drafts). Thurlow Rogers used to duke it out with Lemond in the USA, went overseas and said it wasn't for him. He spent the next 20-30 years beating everyone in the USA in his age group, staying with friends and living on winnings. We have that cookie guy that got more attention taking Strava KOMs than he did as a domestique. A fav guy of mine in Cam Wurf - Auzzie. He won a WC medal rowing in a quad. Then he became a WT domo, road with Sagan, an one GT (Giro I think). Cam then got into Triathalons and set the Kona bike record two years ago, then broke his record in the most recent Ironman.
Any there are those that can get paid by the military to race (in many countries).

So there is opportunity, I just think it is kinda hard to really be a "pro" if you are not into the team concept - the team winning. That is where the money is, and pros follow the money.

Rajflyboy

Doge

You may want to look more to the track (which really isn't pro) where the team things matters less. I tend to think if there were money there many of the pros would move too.

Rajflyboy

ThermionicScott 

Minor tangent: "Segway" is the tool for power-assisted mobility. A "segue" is when you move from one topic to another.

caloso

Thank you. That totally baffled me. He was talking about ebikes earlier so I couldn't quite piece together the thread.

Rajflyboy

bbbean 

A segue is not the same as a Segway.

burnthesheep

Me thinks you may not have ever looked online after some races at riders who DO post up on Strava. The NP figures and some of the power figures in known climbs/sectors are pretty staggering.

To become the leader, you can do things the others cannot. There is also corresponding training to be able to do that stuff. That's why Gaimon was a domestique in the WT who didn't make it despite having a Strava god-like status these days among fans.

He says it all the time, and nobody listens, that he was just pack fodder in the WT.

Most all sports have "support roles". Cycling is just very unique in that the history of the races before the advent of teams meant singular winners. Not teams.

I can see a valid argument for having winning "teams" with an "MVP", but that just isn't the historical origin of the racing.

As for the drafting part......it can't be understood until you participate in certain things. Then you get it. You both get how people not on the front can effortlessly cruise at 25+mph and you also get that it ain't no C-group ride once that group goes over a roller at 20+mph and you're putting out 300 to 400w for a minute or so.

That's usually a good way to separate the men from the boys on a hammer ride......don't lift over the rollers. You'll lose about 1/3 of the riders over the first little 30 second roller. There's still a draft, you're going 20mph or so......uphill. So, why ain't it so easy?

caloso

Or when the selection gets made on a flat stage by the crosswinds. A few years ago there was a stage in the first week of the TdF that was pancake flat but with pretty heavy winds. The peleton was going into a headwind, which makes sitting in all the easier. The road was coming up to a turn so that it would now be a crosswind. Savvy GC guys (Armstrong and Cancellara, if I recall correctly), while Contador was taking a siesta at the back. The group turned the corner, the crosswind shredded the group, and Contador got caught out. Cost him a huge time deficit.

Flip Flop Rider

like the team racing fine but get rid of the in ear radios

bbbean 

Doge

Get ride of every thing electronic - right to the shifters.
But, yea, start with radios.

Doge

A slippery slope argument.
The more randomness introduced the more exciting it is. We can find who is the strongest at the track, or TTs. Racing is about being BOTH fit and ability to win. I want the riders/teams figuring out how to win - themselves. I don't want old tech guys (like me) telling them what to do via a radio.
The support crew, is fine to be there for preparation, recovery and mechanical support.

But leave it to the riders and the teams to figure out how to win on the road.

F1 - did similar after they started wireless car to laptop connections. F1 and other Motorsport ban certain electronics and radios on cars and leave it to the drives.

I think it is just less interesting watching computers compete.

Rajflyboy

Rajflyboy

ksryder

Careful you don't cut yourself on all that edginess.

bbbean 

So, if we get rid of domestiques, teams, radios, Di2, and every other modern piece of equipment, why not get rid of the bikes and all that mechanical advantage, too? Why not simply conduct marathons in the nude through the wilderness?

Doge

There is a pretty clear line between mechanical and electronics.

I was an electro-mechanical engineer - and well, folks didn't get that.

There is a cultural sports philosophy here. Precision, exactness, getting it right - vs the unknown, human error and randomness.
The NFL CAN be the former because of the money and the camera and technology. Cycling cannot be. There is a lot of randomness from flat tires, to crashes to ... . For the most part pro races are 4 boring hours influenced by the use of electronics with some racing in the final hour which is the exciting stuff - having less electronic use. Without electronics, riders can escape and hide (most races don't have the choppers). Riders have to guess if they can attack and maintain. They have to learn to shift well. Sometime they will find they can do better than their training-with-power plan, and sometimes worse. They have to communicate with their team in non obvious ways and learn to better read the other riders - teammates and opponents. It just makes it all less predictable.