Tandem wheels - double butted or straight spokes?
#26
aka Tom Reingold
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I've built a lot of wheels. It's true that whether you get butted spokes or straight gauge won't matter in a practical way, though I still lean towards butted. But it is not true that spokes don't break any more. I still see it happening. It happened a lot on the rear wheel of a used bike I bought. Clearly the spokes were fatigued, and the likely cause was the wheel was built badly in the first place. I rebuilt the wheel with new spokes. It happened a few times on another wheel, and the spokes broke in the middle, so the likely cause was a manufacturing defect. I rebuild the wheel with new spokes.
Black or silver doesn't matter.
Aluminum nipples seem dumb to me. They corrode and seize. Brass has its own built in lubricant, and that's why it is the most common material for spoke nipples as well as things like keys and locks. Many people get good service from aluminum nipples, but I still see no advantage. The weight difference is negligible. But you can get aluminum nipples in colors, so if that matters to you, there you are.
Black or silver doesn't matter.
Aluminum nipples seem dumb to me. They corrode and seize. Brass has its own built in lubricant, and that's why it is the most common material for spoke nipples as well as things like keys and locks. Many people get good service from aluminum nipples, but I still see no advantage. The weight difference is negligible. But you can get aluminum nipples in colors, so if that matters to you, there you are.
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Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#27
just another gosling
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Unless you are a weightweenie and like a Tandem tipping the scale in the high 25#s...
I knocked 5lbs off mine with bakes (disc to rim), bars, seat post and it was very noticeable.
The most noticeable thing is the tubular/s. That lead to a different rim, spokes, hubs. Pretty hard to beat the ride of a 320g 27mm 130PSI tubular - and the speed picked way up.
I knocked 5lbs off mine with bakes (disc to rim), bars, seat post and it was very noticeable.
The most noticeable thing is the tubular/s. That lead to a different rim, spokes, hubs. Pretty hard to beat the ride of a 320g 27mm 130PSI tubular - and the speed picked way up.
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You make me feel so old (which I am anyway), running Conti 5000 28mm at 250g and only 95 psi. Heavy old 490g rims with rim brakes, too. I can't say that any bike bling makes me faster because by the time I get in on the bike, I've gotten older and slower yet. Our team has lost 5 lbs. in the past 2 weeks though. We got a rebate from the grocery store for that. I think we can lose another 5 by summer. With our stoker and captain aero bars we do OK on the flat but we still suck on the climbs. That 5 lbs. is supposed to increase our speed on a 6% grade by .1 mph but I haven't noticed it yet. The CX-ray spokes are supposed to be faster too, to the tune of ~5 watts/wheel at 30, but no way to document that. The singles who don't get on do complain about it though.
I have a Power Tap on the rear hub. My wife and I are doing the same power my kid was. Actually he still has the power peaks. I took about a 20 year tandem break, so a lot of things feel different.
#29
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I don't think that is true at all being an order of magnitude is 10X. A 130 PSI tire has less vertical give than a classic box alloy rim. Make that 170-PSI (Tufos if you like punishment) and the rim is the compliant part.
A wide deep profile rim can support a tyre that has very little give. Sure, a tubular is designed to role on the rim, but the tyres can be incredibly responsive compared to an alloy rim.
Deep profile tubular rim, ~150PSI tubular and 2.3 straight spokes are so stiff your teeth hurt.
My setup, as posted the spokes have more flex than the tire. Standing I get 3-4mm movement. I don't see that in the tyre at all - esp on the rear.
#30
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With all the spoke talk - I just read/thought/noticed about this.
I don't think that is true at all being an order of magnitude is 10X. A 130 PSI tire has less vertical give than a classic box alloy rim. Make that 170-PSI (Tufos if you like punishment) and the rim is the compliant part.
A wide deep profile rim can support a tyre that has very little give. Sure, a tubular is designed to role on the rim, but the tyres can be incredibly responsive compared to an alloy rim.
Deep profile tubular rim, ~150PSI tubular and 2.3 straight spokes are so stiff your teeth hurt.
My setup, as posted the spokes have more flex than the tire. Standing I get 3-4mm movement. I don't see that in the tyre at all - esp on the rear.
I don't think that is true at all being an order of magnitude is 10X. A 130 PSI tire has less vertical give than a classic box alloy rim. Make that 170-PSI (Tufos if you like punishment) and the rim is the compliant part.
A wide deep profile rim can support a tyre that has very little give. Sure, a tubular is designed to role on the rim, but the tyres can be incredibly responsive compared to an alloy rim.
Deep profile tubular rim, ~150PSI tubular and 2.3 straight spokes are so stiff your teeth hurt.
My setup, as posted the spokes have more flex than the tire. Standing I get 3-4mm movement. I don't see that in the tyre at all - esp on the rear.
If the rim were to move vertically as much as you say, spokes wouldn't last a season. WAG maybe 1mm vertical rim displacement at the contact patch. You could test that by sitting on the bike while someone measures tension in the bottom-most spoke. Then on the bench, detension maybe 3 neighboring spokes that much and see how many threads the nipple has exposed.
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#31
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He probably means vertical stiffness, whatever the inflation pressure, though order of magnitude is overstating it, Horizontal stiffness is another matter. One actually doesn't want too stiff a wheel with rim brakes. If they're too stiff you get brake rub. Better to just let the bottom flex.
If the rim were to move vertically as much as you say, spokes wouldn't last a season. WAG maybe 1mm vertical rim displacement at the contact patch. You could test that by sitting on the bike while someone measures tension in the bottom-most spoke. Then on the bench, detension maybe 3 neighboring spokes that much and see how many threads the nipple has exposed.
If the rim were to move vertically as much as you say, spokes wouldn't last a season. WAG maybe 1mm vertical rim displacement at the contact patch. You could test that by sitting on the bike while someone measures tension in the bottom-most spoke. Then on the bench, detension maybe 3 neighboring spokes that much and see how many threads the nipple has exposed.
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