Ask your small, random, track-related questions here
#2326
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 152
Bikes: Planet X Pro Carbon, Dolan FXE, Fuji Transonic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I started leaving straps on my pedals this season for all training (4/week) and some people think its just so you don't pull our of your pedals. To be honest I don't think I could pull out without twisting my foot, even on a standing start, without the straps. What I like about the straps is during sprint efforts at very high cadence, or jumping hard midbank, you feel very attached to the bike. Its like wearing a good tight fitting shoe, there is a lot more confidence and less movement at high cadence/power.
Thats all though. When Im just rolling around or doing pacelines or slower efforts, I dont even tighten them down. A good set of look/shimano/whatever cleats is all you ever need.
Thats all though. When Im just rolling around or doing pacelines or slower efforts, I dont even tighten them down. A good set of look/shimano/whatever cleats is all you ever need.
#2327
Elitist
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
A few years ago, the road standard was 44cm wide...even for smaller riders. This helped with climbing as well as what I call "roadie sprinting" where they wave the bike from side to side. Actually, it encourages that type of sprinting.
If you did that kind of sprinting on the track, you'd make a mess as everything happens in tight quarters. So, with that being the case, narrow bars 38cm or less make it easy to ride in close proximity to other racers without fear of having your handlebars bumped. The first contact is usually the shoulder or elbow.
There are also some (minor) aero benefits. I don't think anyone has ever put on narrow bars and shaved off crazy amounts off of their times. But, less body in the wind is less. So, there are benefits.
Standing starts can feel awkward on super narrow bars (33cm and the like). But, you get used to it after a few sessions.
40cm used to be the track standard back in like 2010 and earlier. Now it's 37cm (or less) for big guys and lower for ladies, smaller riders, and juniors.
Everybody thinks it's weird and assume they won't like it...then they try it and don't go back. I can't recall the last time I've seen 44cm bars on the track. Even roadies and Madison riders will use narrow junior road bars on the track.
If you did that kind of sprinting on the track, you'd make a mess as everything happens in tight quarters. So, with that being the case, narrow bars 38cm or less make it easy to ride in close proximity to other racers without fear of having your handlebars bumped. The first contact is usually the shoulder or elbow.
There are also some (minor) aero benefits. I don't think anyone has ever put on narrow bars and shaved off crazy amounts off of their times. But, less body in the wind is less. So, there are benefits.
Standing starts can feel awkward on super narrow bars (33cm and the like). But, you get used to it after a few sessions.
40cm used to be the track standard back in like 2010 and earlier. Now it's 37cm (or less) for big guys and lower for ladies, smaller riders, and juniors.
Everybody thinks it's weird and assume they won't like it...then they try it and don't go back. I can't recall the last time I've seen 44cm bars on the track. Even roadies and Madison riders will use narrow junior road bars on the track.
#2328
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 152
Bikes: Planet X Pro Carbon, Dolan FXE, Fuji Transonic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#2329
Senior Member
I'm a bit old school and still think the width of your bars should be based on your shoulder width. I rode 42 & 44cm bars on the track last year and my bars pretty much looked normal, but I didn't go around measuring other guys bars. Based on recommendations from this board, I've put on 40cm bars, but I also put 42cm bars on my road bike to get used to the narrowness. At T-Town I noticed a few guys with the 37s, but it seemed that it was mostly guys with Fujis for which they were standard equipment. I don't recall seeing anything narrow at Kissena this Spring, so it might be track dependent as to what has become the standard. Of course my observations are from the Sr 3-4 & Masters ranks, so maybe the pros & elites all have 37 or smaller bars.
#2330
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ontario
Posts: 740
Bikes: T1, S2, P3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think this is a very overlooked part in getting aero. Id love to seem some hard data and going right down to a 37 scattos compared to a big wide traditional track bar.
#2331
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 152
Bikes: Planet X Pro Carbon, Dolan FXE, Fuji Transonic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Those savings seem to be rather large dont they? 10/15W off a handlebar shape design? Or am I being pessimistic?
#2332
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ontario
Posts: 740
Bikes: T1, S2, P3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
My guess is the rider is pretty upright and the extra few CM of having his arms/elbows out is catching a lot of air. I bet the bar itself is only worth a couple of W (Cervelo's new aero bar claims a grand 4.4w). But its the position it puts you in that is the savings.
#2333
aka mattio
I mean, if you consider your arms wide as outside of the rest of your body's frontal footprint, and your arms narrow as being within the frontal area of your hips and torso, you're removing a pretty substantial bit of frontal area by going narrower.
#2334
Elitist
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
Banchad, narrow bars are part of the fine tuning that we all do after you've already achieved all of the major gains elsewhere.
Every little bit helps. Aside from the tactical benefits listed above, narrow bars can be considered "free speed". So they are a win-win.
And they are lighter (less material) and stiffer (less leverage)...so win-win-win-win
Every little bit helps. Aside from the tactical benefits listed above, narrow bars can be considered "free speed". So they are a win-win.
And they are lighter (less material) and stiffer (less leverage)...so win-win-win-win
#2335
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 152
Bikes: Planet X Pro Carbon, Dolan FXE, Fuji Transonic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Banchad, narrow bars are part of the fine tuning that we all do after you've already achieved all of the major gains elsewhere.
Every little bit helps. Aside from the tactical benefits listed above, narrow bars can be considered "free speed". So they are a win-win.
And they are lighter (less material) and stiffer (less leverage)...so win-win-win-win
Every little bit helps. Aside from the tactical benefits listed above, narrow bars can be considered "free speed". So they are a win-win.
And they are lighter (less material) and stiffer (less leverage)...so win-win-win-win
#2336
aka mattio
The confidence intervals overlap, though, so you can probably expect the actual difference to be quite a bit less than that.
#2337
Elitist
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times
in
77 Posts
I think one benefit is that, for wider riders, narrow bars have the rider make an arrowhead shape with their arms.
/ \
versus
| |
Which forces some air around the rider as opposed to having it funnel into the big scoop that is the torso area.
Wasn't the "Praying Mantis" position actually proven to be optimal primarily because it closed that scoop?
/ \
versus
| |
Which forces some air around the rider as opposed to having it funnel into the big scoop that is the torso area.
Wasn't the "Praying Mantis" position actually proven to be optimal primarily because it closed that scoop?
Last edited by carleton; 05-06-15 at 11:16 AM.
#2339
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Northeast Ohio
Posts: 3,215
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Praying mantis is only optimal if it works for your body, otherwise it's generally much worse than conventional position. So much of aerodynamics is interactions, so the answer to anything but the most basic if aerodynamic questions is that it depends.
#2340
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 152
Bikes: Planet X Pro Carbon, Dolan FXE, Fuji Transonic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#2341
Senior Member
Looking at this picture, 44 & 46 are too wide for this rider's shoulder width. He should have started with a proper fitting 40 or 42 and then went narrower from that width for the comparison. With bars wider than his shoulders, his arms are artificially spread out to catch additional wind. No matter what was trendy, that has never been a good fit in my book.
#2342
Full Member
#2343
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 152
Bikes: Planet X Pro Carbon, Dolan FXE, Fuji Transonic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Actually kind of tempted to splash out a little bit on a Scatto after all this talk of narrower bars.
#2344
Lapped 3x
[QUOTE=carleton;17781736
Which forces some air around the rider as opposed to having it funnel into the big scoop that is the torso area.
Wasn't the "Praying Mantis" position actually proven to be optimal primarily because it closed that scoop?
[/QUOTE]
This was Obree's reasoning for developing the Egg position. The German pursuit team tested it, and it is extremely fast on a single rider, and even faster in formation as the bikes are much shorter, allowing the riders to get closer together. Could you imagine practicing those transitions?
Which forces some air around the rider as opposed to having it funnel into the big scoop that is the torso area.
Wasn't the "Praying Mantis" position actually proven to be optimal primarily because it closed that scoop?
[/QUOTE]
This was Obree's reasoning for developing the Egg position. The German pursuit team tested it, and it is extremely fast on a single rider, and even faster in formation as the bikes are much shorter, allowing the riders to get closer together. Could you imagine practicing those transitions?
#2347
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Far Away
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Depends on you I guess. I got 37 and am cool with them, but know a few wo got 35 and it was a little too much for endurance events
#2348
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 152
Bikes: Planet X Pro Carbon, Dolan FXE, Fuji Transonic
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
How long were those events? I'm not an endurance guy anyway so not too bothered by that but I guess a compromise at 37cm might be a good idea.
#2349
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Riverdale, NY
Posts: 761
Bikes: 2002 Seven Axiom
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
[h=1]Just got hold of a Zipp Disk and now need a 90 Degree Presta Valve adapter for my pump. Any thoughts on these and which are easiest to use? I understood that some require a helper to hold the adapter onto the valve , am I correct?[/h]
#2350
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Ontario
Posts: 740
Bikes: T1, S2, P3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Do NOT get the zipp one. Its expensive, and you generally need help holding it (depending on the pump really)
I use this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Topeak-Pressur.../dp/B00GKH49GI
however, its not perfect. Its difficult to screw on, doesn't thread right sometimes, adds resistance to pumping. BUT I can thread it on and use a pump with 2 hands alone, and it costs 1/3 of the stupid ZIPP one.
I use this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Topeak-Pressur.../dp/B00GKH49GI
however, its not perfect. Its difficult to screw on, doesn't thread right sometimes, adds resistance to pumping. BUT I can thread it on and use a pump with 2 hands alone, and it costs 1/3 of the stupid ZIPP one.