Rajflyboy

Teach me about tubular tires.

I know now they are faster but I’d like to know more.

1. Do you need special wheels?
2. How much and are they worth the price?
3. Do they work on all bikes? MTB, track, gravel Etc ?

thanks

Wilfred Laurier

I assume you are talking about the traditional tubulars where a tube is sewn inside a closed tire casing.

They need special wheels. They require some skill to mount and improper mounting can result in the tire rolling off in a corner and injuring you. You also need to carry a spare tubular with you... patching or replacing a tube is not an option on the side of the road, generally.

They generally have thin latex tubes built in, which are light and supple (fast rolling) but air seeps out much faster than with butyl tubes.

Cheap ones start around $30 a piece if I recall correctly. They are known to roll better and smoother, with (I think) less rolling resistance, especially if you get expensive ones. Cheap ones are likely not a great step up from good quality clinchers (tires with separate tubes). There is also a choice of either glue or tape to mount them on the rim, but one of these has more rolling resistance. I forget which.

They are most common on road and track racing. Good ones are also available for cyclocross, so gravel would be fine, too. I am not aware of tubulars being commonly used for fatter-tire mountain bikes.

Many modern bikes have a 'tubeless' setup, which is like clincher tires but the rim, rim tape, and tire are designed to seal without a tube, but a tube can be added in an emergency.

Rajflyboy

Thanks

are the tubular wheelsets expensive?

TiHabanero

Expense will most likely be the same as a good set of clincher rims, however there are fewer choices available today than in years past, so the cost may reflect the scarcity of product. Good tubulars are expensive, similar to good clinchers.

For a spare tubular that you carry with you on the bike, make sure it is one that has been used on a wheel. It will be nicely stretched and have a base coat of glue on it. Easier to get on the rim and the base coat is good insurance while getting you home.

General Geoff

IMO not worth the hassle except for sanctioned race events

Rajflyboy

i could see that

TakingMyTime

+1

I rode Tubulars on my Raleigh about 30 years ago. It was a time in my life where I had convinced myself that anyone who is anyone would only be riding tubulars. After about 1 year of that, I learned my lesson and would never go back. As stated above, if you really need them you'll already know you need them. For races and track riding... go for it. For special weekend rides, very questionable.

smashndash

First off, many tire companies are claiming that tubeless is faster than tubular. Tubular is fast, but it still has a tube. Now, if we’re talking tubeless tubulars, that’s different. It’s also questionable whether this claim is true, because the bike industry has been wrong many times before.

I personally don’t have any experience with tubulars, but I will say that rolling tubulars in crits seems to be weirdly common. It doesn’t necessarily happen when cornering normally unless the glue job is garbage, but if you suddenly swerve and skid or your rear wheel lifts and slams the ground a bit sideways, the tubular can roll and keep you from saving it. So I don’t necessarily believe that tubulars are safer than clinchers - especially if we’re talking about tubeless rims with a strong bead shelf. Getting tires off of some tubeless rims can be really, really tough. This should give you some peace of mind if you flat while going downhill.

Miele Man

I like the feel of tubulars when riding them but dislike immensely the hassle of gluing them so that they are perfectly round. I just put a pair of Hutchinson tubular tires on a set of wheels and after a few attempts still can't get one high spot out of the tire. It's the tire itself that's a bit high not a defect in the tire.

I'm hoping to score some clincher rims that have the same ERD as my tubular rims so that I can do a straight swap of the rims.

Cheers

Road Fan

I think the problem of gluing them perfectly is over-thought. Once the tire is on the glue and is visibly reasonably even, it just needs to be inflated - first about 40 psi, make adjustments, then up to 100 psi, make final small adjustments (this will be difficult to do much). There is IMO an interference fit between the pressurized tire and the rim, and the glue is viscous for a while to come. The internal tensions of the tire and that between the tire and the rim tend to self-center the tire in the rim's trough, and the pressure of the tire will tend to set the glue as it dries.

I can only imagine such perfection being necessary for super-smooth indoor tracks where the boards are as well-manicured as the wheels, and there is so little flex in the tire that the littlest ding may possibly be hazardous. We had a great velodrome in Chicago, but I wasn't a rider on it - I rode what is now the Lakefront Trail and the nearby horse cinder paths. My favorite tires were 250 gram D'Allessandros, and then the Vittoria CG and CX. But I couldn't afford them readily.

I don't understand "It's the tire itself that's a bit high not a defect in the tire." First if "it's the tire itself" then there pretty much is "a defect in the tire" but I think it's minor and innocuous.

I can see there being a bunching perhaps where the base tape ends overlap, causing a minor high spot. I'm sure i've ridden many miles with that sort of minor flaw without even noticing a bump. I think the aforementioned internal forces under riding pressures tend to make the tire adjust slightly to smooth those. At least, I've certainly not seen any such effects persist after installation. Back in the day Hutchinson was most noted for heavy tires for some kind of cross, called "Elvezia," which weighed about 470 grams each. I'm sure they've upped their game over the past 35 years. I can't say I've seen a perfect tire, but what we have now has got to be better than these big, cheap donuts. And we had great tires, too, from Vittoria, Clement, and D'Allessandro, among others.

It's been a long time since I've ridden more than one pair of sewups intensively, but I've never seen what Miele seems to be talking about as a problem.

Road Fan

I have to gently throw a few firecrackers. First, how do you know that rolling tubulars in Crits is wierdly common? any data? Second, criterium racing is not what most of us do on our road bikes on the bike paths; at least I never was tempted to do so. Several academics have done research about gluing techniques and materials for tubulars. Since I know about those I would use those techniques if I was going to race but ... be reasonable I'm still only 66 yo! lol!

The safety argument for tubulars is relevant for punctures, not rolloffs. First, if a tack or nail punctures your tubular in straight and level flight, the air will run out relatively slow, not instantly. So you have maybe a minute to slow the bike. Also, the tire remains attached to the rim while and after it deflates, so there is some cushioning rubber that you can roll on as it deflates and afterwards. In contrast, a nail can often tear a loose innertube open instantly, enabling both tire beads to break and the only traction is then the metal to concrete friction of the edge of the clincher rim brake track. So the safety argument of the tubular is that it is safer in case of a puncture, a reasonably expected failure. Admittedly it may be less safe in case of a rolloff. But with proper gluing and when not in competition, I would think a rolloff is not common.

79pmooney

One advantage tubulars have that if you use onlyu once will pay for all the hassle many times over. (You just won't ever know.) If riding tubulars means that you don't blow out a clincher at high speed and have it come off the rim before you stop, you won the lottery. Winning here means life goes on as before. Losing means a crash yo will never forget. Now if a tubular blows out, at any speed, as long as you are not needing to take a corner, you just apply the brakes, slow to a stop and change out the tire. No biggie.

I've blown tubulars ar 40. I blew a clincher at 25 on lever ground and it almost made my top 5 worst crashes list. Ribs, collarbone, an acre of road rash and hard helmet hit. That was 8 years ago, Money has kept me from going back to tubulars but I will probably make the switch over the next year.

Other pluses of tubulars - if you go with the really good ones, you get the magic carpet ride. Rims are a very real amount either lighter or stringer or both. (The good tires are also quite light. We raced 250 gram tires (that's tire AND tube) 40 years ago on bad rural New England roads. I hit RR tracks hard at ~30mph less than a mile from the finish of a race. Dented both rims. Tires were fine and that cost me zero in the sprint. Cornering on good tubulars is sublime. You can ride any distance on the flatted tire (perhaps at the expense of both tire and rim but if you have to get there, they won't stop you. You can also put a tubular on a clincher rim and get your friend home. Just be sure he/she knows "no glue'!

Edit: in my racing days I went to quite a few criteriums, both as a rider and watching. Rolling tires was not common. If a rider did it, he only did it once. After the race, he would be taken aside and told in no small measure exactly what he had to do or who he had to learn from to never do it again. Experienced racers didn't take kindly to being crashed out by amateur mistakes in front of them. But doing good glue jobs is not hard.

Ben

Miele Man

When I said the tire is a bit high I meant that the tire is not evenly seated on the rim and thus it has a high spot. I removed the tire a few times but can not get it seated so there is no high spot.

Cheers

Road Fan

Thanks, I think I got that part. What I'm suggesting is that once it's on and lined up laterally, you could try just riding it for a week and see if it smooths. As long as the bump isn't perhaps ¼" high, I see no cause for concern, but I've usually had such smaller bumps spread out and smooth out as I ride them.

Maybe we should all remembr to do a trial install onto the rim with full pressure but no glue, to see if the shape is acceptable. Maybe the LBS will take back a bouncy tire that has not been glued.

Do you have a picture of the tire and a close-up of the problem?

Miele Man

Thanks very much for the advice. I'll take an image of the tire on the rim later today and post it.

Cheers

79pmooney

Miele Man, those flaws are part of riding tubulars. Not all have them but many, even the best, do. You probably saw my reference to them being "magic carpets" in my post above. They are, And like real magic carpets, hand made, No, not in Persia hundreds of years ago but still by hand by gnomes in far of lands. And just like the real magic carpets, they have flaws. And like the real magic carpets, those flaws really don't matter very much. Not at all if you ignore them.

Ben

masi61

I have not ridden any Hutchinson tubulars but did a quick internet search of their tubulars and noted that there are several Hutchinson tubular models at different price points.

I mention this this because some tubular tire fans will say that if you are going to go in for tubulars, you need to go all in and pay the premium for the handmade models or the ones with the higher threadcount casing.

The example I will give is with Continental tubulars - Their “Giro” model has always been very affordable so when I set up a low cost set of tubular wheels I was setting up, I also went low cost on the tires. Big Mistake!

The Giro had a hump just like you described. No amount of smoothing, letting the tire “relax”, riding it to death or regluing made that tire lay flat. IIRC - the whoop or jump occurred in the valve area. Needless to say this tire did not say “handmade in Germany” anywhere - lol. That horrible Giro tire was ridden for about 120 miles then demoted to spare tire use.

For 2x the price of the Giro, I next went to the Competition model. These are clearly much higher grade tires. You can tell from the first install that they are sublime tires. They mount up fine (not exactly easy to slip onto the rim but fine) with perfect roundness and most important - no hump!

So to repeat: about your Hutchinson tire - I suspect that it is not going to cooperate much more so you probably should fold it and put it in your spare tire bag as a backup and then move up the line to a higher quality model.

I’ve heard the same thing said about the Vittoria budget tubular - the Rally model. These sell for about 25 or 30$ each. Strangely, when I tried these I wasn’t expecting much. I thought I might have a PTSD flashback to that horrible Continental Giro. Surprisingly, they were fine. There was no hump at the valve. So while they were round with no hump, I could still tell it was a training tire. Not bad bad but not the kind of ride to wax poetic about either.

If you look at my little avatar it is of my original tubular front wheel that I had made for my Masi Gran Criterium when I was still a teenager. That was 40 years ago. The front hub is a Bullseye gold anodized with black flanges. 36 spokes. It was lace 3x to a Mavic OR10 gold anodized tubular rim. The skewers were Zeus 2000 titanium. The tires were Continental Sonderclasse ribbed tread cottons that ran fat. Between the sealed bearings of the Bullseye hubs to the amazing ride of the Continental Sonder Klasse cottons - those wheels were amazing! Fast, grippy on axis and off axis. Not harsh. Soft yet fast.

When you make a good match of a great tubular tire to your rims you will know you’re there. I’m looking forward to seeing a photo of that Hutchinson tire.

tgenec86

Just keep in mind that riding tubulars on a regular basis is a full commitment. They're wonderful to ride, but you have to carry a full tire with you as a spare and you get ONE tire change and then a phone call. (you can try sealant, but I eon't recommend it) You can and should replace punctured inner tubes, but it's time consuming and if you get the sewing wrong you're going to have bulges. A good tubular that is worth repairing is going to run in the $70-$100 range. There are good rim tapes available with good reputations and that's a clean and relatively easy alternative, traditional glue can be messy, sticky and require a lot of cleaning of rims and hands - and you want to make sure you get the tire on straight the first time. Last - it's not recommended to just buy one and slap it on - they should be prepped by some level of stretching - and with some of the traditional tires - they actually ride better when "aged."

I like tubular and raced on them years ago, but years later and doing more riding because I love to ride and only entering 8-10 Masters races per year - they are way too much of a pain in the butt, and Clincher technology has gotten extremely good. I find that my wide Boyd rims and a 25mm tire rival the Continental & Vittoria tubulars I used to swear by.

Road Fan

I have to also go back to "most of this just doesn't matter," echoing Ben.

I haven't gone to a top class tubular for a long time. I have a handful of Challenge Parigi-Roubaix 27 mm which seem to have latex tubes, and those are wonderful to ride but not top class - you can spend more for a Challenge or ... Donnelley?

I have experience with three lower-priced Thai tubulars in addition to the very credible Yellow Jersey Service Corse (3 for $15, remember?). The Conti Giro I originally found harsh but durable, then I had a handful of random casing failures. Vittoria Rallye: I still have a pair on my Masi GC, they were a good ride. Many threads here where people had spontaneous failures of bewildering variety. I'll use up my old ones, but no new ones. The third variety does not get much press, the Gommitalia Champion. I have four of these (or is it two?), and they are really nice - they punch well above their weight.

Next tier up is the Gommitalia Espresso, recommended to me by Lotek way back when he was a mod. Hard to stretch into place, but they make a beautiful ride. I've seen a better Gommi on ebay, the fully hand-made Gommitalia Diamond (or Platinum?). If the Espresso is any indication, the top model should be super.

My Yellow Jersey fleet of three are on the Mondonico as spares. As such they are fine, and when I rode them on my Mondonico I saw no problems, though the cosmetics are old-fashioned. I feel the ride gives the tubular experience but not as beautifully as the Espresso or the Challenge.

As far as the casing failures it's really only the ones where it looks like the tire swallowed a python, that bother me. The wheel spins off-balance and it's harsh when going fast. Also if I think about how this can mainly be caused (in an unrepaired tire) by casing threads breaking, I don't think tires with pythons are safe, unless you sewed them back together not using the original thread holes.

msu2001la

Lots of people (myself included) are using tubulars in our local Cyclocross series. I've never seen anyone roll a tubular off the rim, and I doubt I could get mine shop-glued tubulars off without using some tools and likely destroying the tire in the process. I think CX tubulars are probably a bit different than road tubulars in this regard?

The main benefit for CX is that you can run extremely low pressures (I usually run around 22-23psi) and not pinch flat. I'm also using a Donnely tire this season that is a tubeless tubular, so no inner tube at all and they hold air really well. In the past I've run Challenge CX tires which have a latex inner tube and they would only hold air for a few days at best.

Tubular wheelsets are sometimes a little lighter than clincher wheels, because the rims don't have the "hook" on them.

I ride mine on training rides all the time. I bring a small can of Vittora Pit Stop that I hope I never need, and a phone. As mentioned earlier, there's no fixing anything on the side of the road.

63rickert

This is the baseline good tubular:

https://www.merlincycles.com/vittori...00c-87368.html

If you want it in 28 wide it's another $5. Shipping included if you buy two. Get these and there are no humps, no wobbles. While leaving inflated on a rim overnight before glue is still a good idea, on these you won't have to. And you won't break your hands getting them on rim. And you can have the magic carpet ride first time out. These are the tires everyone says cost $100.

The price you are looking at is as much as I've paid for top tubulars the past few years. If you have been around you will be able to find them for even less. But merlincycles is not a secret, everyone can get this price. Probikekit has frequent good prices too, none I see today. There are plenty of other sources for good tires.

Orange Seal, Orange Seal Endurance, Panaracer Sealant all fix a flat pretty reliably. If there are cut cords in the casing is the only time you have to open it up and boot it. The wider the tire the easier it will be to sew it up straight. Don't use sealant until after a flat. If there is sealant all over and you do need a boot it is a mess. Fixable but a mess. Also sealant is going to dry out, so use the tire. Ride your bike. Sewups do not get more flats than similar clinchers. If you are using light clinchers already there is no difference in how many flats you get. If you are using Marathons do not even think about tubulars.

Wildwood 

I keep about 15 drop handlebar road bikes (mostly vintage steel) ready to ride. 4 are clincher sets, the rest are tubular. There are a lot of inaccurate statements in many of the above posts about tubular wheels.

The bottom line is that tubular rims are the lightest, and they build the lightest wheels. Lightweight wheels spin-up faster/easier than heavier wheels. Other advantages of tubulars: roundness of tire profile, supple ride have been virtually eliminated by the newest high-end clincher wheels and tires.One thing i can promise is that my tubular flat tire changes (virtually eliminated with liquid latex sealants) are much faster than clincher.

Currently running these tubulars:
VeloFlex in 25 & 28mm - Roubaix, Arenberg, Vllaanderen
Specialized Turbo in 24mm - their top tubular 3-4years ago
Vittoria Corsa 25mm
Continental Sprinters 22mm
Continental Giro in 23mm
Schwalbe in 30mm

lots of experience with Vittoria Rally over the years.

Rajflyboy

I guess the tubulars are best for those who race

Road Fan

There's really no reason why one cannot carry even three spare tubular tires. With a teeny under-saddle bag, only one. With a small Carradice or similar several-liter beg in the rear, a folded and bound tubular occupies minimum space and you can easily cram in three.

I also think that after you attach a freshly-glued tire to the rim trough and air it up to about 40 psi, you have perhaps a 5-minute window to move things around and get your best alignment. I've never used CO2, can you do a partial inflation with that system?

Hiro11

There are only two situations where tubulars makes sense:
1. Cross races in slippery conditions where very low pressures are required.
2. You are a professional road racer and have an old Belgian guy who glues them up for you and hands you a fresh wheel when you flat.

There are no other situations these days where anyone should consider tubulars. Even scenario one is questionable, frankly. I run tubeless cross tires at 25 psi all the time without issue.