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What does an expensive frame get you?

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What does an expensive frame get you?

Old 09-15-20, 06:37 AM
  #76  
bruce19
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
Handling is affected by geometry, not frame material.

Stiffness could be a factor, though your choice of tire size and pressure can mitigate a substantial part of that (if approaching from a comfort angle).

Typically higher end carbon frames can have specific tube shapes unattainable in other materials, and the layup of such is often much more time intensive, as is the material cost.

So that's what you're paying for; that and brand name/marketing.
This.
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Old 09-15-20, 06:39 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Zaskar
IF they're producing their own designs.
There are lots of companies using open molds. The Engine 11 Mach 1 - a $2700 frame - open mold. If you see two bikes with the exact same measurements on paper, most likely an open mold.

Last edited by vespasianus; 09-15-20 at 08:45 AM.
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Old 09-15-20, 06:39 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Princess_Allez
No need to hate. I'm talking about from a pure performance standpoint. If a carbon bike has some other merit than weighing less, I'm all for it. I actually don't envy carbon bikes at all. I can afford to have one, but will likely go titanium instead. Metal bikes crash better and chain drops won't total the frame out.
You think that thin aluminum is more robust and repairs more easily than CF? Okay.
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Old 09-15-20, 06:50 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Princess_Allez
Fugly is not a performance metric.
If you're not fast, then it's the ONLY metric.
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Old 09-15-20, 06:58 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Robert A
Very helpful answer -- thank you.

Do you think aero really matters on a bike frame at speeds around 20-25 mph? It always seemed to me that airflow around our bodies and our positions on the handbars far outweighted the impact of frames.
That's what GCN says.
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Old 09-15-20, 07:20 AM
  #81  
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This may be helpful.
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Old 09-15-20, 07:33 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Robert A
So I'm curious what higher-end frames offer the cyclist. I have a CAAD12 and love the bike. It weights 17.5 pounds without pedals and with stock wheels (which I changed).

Higher end frames from manufacturers such as Cervello and Specialized cost $4k and up. Controlling for the fact that those frames are carbon and mine is aluminum, what benefits do you achieve by stepping up to more expensive frames? Is it only weight savings, or do you get other improvements, such as better handling and increased stiffness? Are those characteristics noticeable enough to the experienced road cyclist?
As long as the "medium-priced" frameset is well designed, the answer is very small gains for a lot of extra money. In your case, you are extremely high on the frame-goodness-per-dollar scale, which means you would pay a lot for very small improvements that might not be perceptible to some riders. The CAAD12 is a nice riding, great handling race bike that is relatively lightweight. There are small gains to be made with a super-high-end frame, but yeah, nothing major. A few hundred grams of weight savings. Maybe some marginally improved aerodynamics. Maybe some slightly better vibration dampening (or not -- depending on the goal of the frame designers).

That said, maybe some really beautiful paint work, a perfect fit, and the enjoyment of a bike that looks-fast-while-standing-still would come with that new frameset, and give you great joy, and be totally worth it to you. But yeah, if you are talking about significant and measurable performance improvements, you might be disappointed.

Last edited by TrackSmart; 09-15-20 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 09-15-20, 07:44 AM
  #83  
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Unsolicited compliments from total strangers on nearly every ride I go on.

Seriously.
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Old 09-15-20, 08:08 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Bob Ross
Unsolicited compliments from total strangers on nearly every ride I go on.

Seriously.
That would be the Sachs, I presume.
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Old 09-15-20, 08:12 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
That would be the Sachs, I presume.
I would guess it's one of the Cannondales, as a Sachs is more of a connaisseur brand
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Old 09-15-20, 09:26 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by swifty
I would guess it's one of the Cannondales, as a Sachs is more of a connaisseur brand
Seriously?!?! The only total stranger who ever offered unsolicited compliments on my Cannondale was a street punk hoping to rob me of it.


Originally Posted by Koyote
That would be the Sachs, I presume.
Yep. Not that that's any reason to actually buy one, but fwiw the Sachs is a total nerd magnet: Not only does some cyclist inevitably say "Nice bike!" on nearly every ride I go on, but I've twice had unkitted pedestrians walk by, recognize the brand, and shout out some accolades. One of them even ran across the street to exclaim "Wow, I thought that was a Richard Sachs but I had to check to be sure. I've never seen one in person before!"
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Old 09-15-20, 09:35 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Zaskar
it is when people refer to “brands” and “marketing” as being expensive... and that generics get you the same for less.
Knock-offs and in-house Chinese frames are not the same.

No one has said a thing about buying some random knock-off frame.
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Old 09-15-20, 10:07 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Bob Ross
Seriously?!?! The only total stranger who ever offered unsolicited compliments on my Cannondale was a street punk hoping to rob me of it.




Yep. Not that that's any reason to actually buy one, but fwiw the Sachs is a total nerd magnet: Not only does some cyclist inevitably say "Nice bike!" on nearly every ride I go on, but I've twice had unkitted pedestrians walk by, recognize the brand, and shout out some accolades. One of them even ran across the street to exclaim "Wow, I thought that was a Richard Sachs but I had to check to be sure. I've never seen one in person before!"
Haha, I guess it's different here in Europe, where Cannondale probably is held in higher regard than in the US.

And I cannot think of anyone in my area who would recognize a Sachs. I'd definately shout 'nice bike!' if you'd pass by on a Sachs!
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Old 09-15-20, 10:25 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by TrackSmart
As long as the "medium-priced" frameset is well designed, the answer is very small gains for a lot of extra money. In your case, you are extremely high on the frame-goodness-per-dollar scale, which means you would pay a lot for very small improvements that might not be perceptible to some riders. The CAAD12 is a nice riding, great handling race bike that is relatively lightweight. There are small gains to be made with a super-high-end frame, but yeah, nothing major. A few hundred grams of weight savings. Maybe some marginally improved aerodynamics. Maybe some slightly better vibration dampening (or not -- depending on the goal of the frame designers).

That said, maybe some really beautiful paint work, a perfect fit, and the enjoyment of a bike that looks-fast-while-standing-still would come with that new frameset, and give you great joy, and be totally worth it to you. But yeah, if you are talking about significant and measurable performance improvements, you might be disappointed.
The thing about the CAAD is that it has a lively, distinctive characteristic that was very noticeable the first time I rode it. Though I'm not in the market for a higher-end bike just yet, I'm interested to know if higher-end frames have their own "characteristic" that is noticeable to their riders.
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Old 09-15-20, 11:26 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by swifty
Haha, I guess it's different here in Europe, where Cannondale probably is held in higher regard than in the US.
Yes. When Miguel Indurain quit racing and Pinarello took their bikes back, he's reported to have asked his friends in the peloton for bike recommendations. It came down to a Colnago or a Cannondale, and he chose the Cannondale.
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Old 09-15-20, 11:40 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by Robert A
The thing about the CAAD is that it has a lively, distinctive characteristic that was very noticeable the first time I rode it. Though I'm not in the market for a higher-end bike just yet, I'm interested to know if higher-end frames have their own "characteristic" that is noticeable to their riders.
A friend of mine and former LBS owner was a rep for Bianchi. He let me try out an Infinto. (I think that was the model. It's been a few years.) I was not a fan. It had this hollow sound and feel. I'm not death on CF but I wasn't that impressed compared to the bikes I currently have. My experience is very limited obviously and I'd be open to trying again if I wanted to throw money around. Not there yet.
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Old 09-15-20, 11:59 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by bruce19
A friend of mine and former LBS owner was a rep for Bianchi. He let me try out an Infinto. (I think that was the model. It's been a few years.) I was not a fan. It had this hollow sound and feel. I'm not death on CF but I wasn't that impressed compared to the bikes I currently have. My experience is very limited obviously and I'd be open to trying again if I wanted to throw money around. Not there yet.
I don't want to shift this thread into alu vs carbon or Cannondale vs. the rest, but nothing else I test rode at the time talked to me in the same way. I felt like I was riding a small sports car on the CAAD. Everything else felt so smooth and SUV-like.

So when I was out with my riding group recently, I asked a fellow member what made him decide on a high-end Pinarello, His answer: He liked the brand, and bought the bike without giving it much thought. Sort of like the way some people buy BMWs or Lexus's these days.
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Old 09-15-20, 12:06 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Robert A
I felt like I was riding a small sports car on the CAAD. Everything else felt so smooth and SUV-like.
Smooth and SUV-like don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, and one shouldn't confuse smooth with slow or, the converse, harsh(er) with fast(er).
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Old 09-15-20, 01:30 PM
  #94  
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The CAAD is a fine frame. I've had a 9 and a 10 - 9 was way better than the 10. But the System 6, which was a rear Caad 9 triangle and an oversized carbon top tube, head tube and downtube was the best bike I've ever ridden.
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Old 09-15-20, 01:40 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Smooth and SUV-like don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, and one shouldn't confuse smooth with slow or, the converse, harsh(er) with fast(er).
True, and I didn't mean to imply slow. I was referring more to the road feel and the sense of responsiveness. These things are really difficult to decipher on a short road test -- I think we all agree that you have to live with a bike to really understand it's character.

When I bought my CAAD, my LBS gave me the opportunity to ride both a CAAD12 and a SS Evo back to back for a full hour. The funny thing was that the CAAD had toe clips, rim brakes and 105, while the SSE had proper cleats, disk brakes and Ultegra. So advantage SSE on the setup. Yet, after multiple short back to back rides, the CAAD was more fun to ride, while the SSE felt more refined, but duller. I'm no expert -- these were just my impressions.
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Old 09-15-20, 02:36 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Robert A
The thing about the CAAD is that it has a lively, distinctive characteristic that was very noticeable the first time I rode it. Though I'm not in the market for a higher-end bike just yet, I'm interested to know if higher-end frames have their own "characteristic" that is noticeable to their riders.
Originally Posted by Robert A
True, and I didn't mean to imply slow. I was referring more to the road feel and the sense of responsiveness. These things are really difficult to decipher on a short road test -- I think we all agree that you have to live with a bike to really understand it's character.

When I bought my CAAD, my LBS gave me the opportunity to ride both a CAAD12 and a SS Evo back to back for a full hour. The funny thing was that the CAAD had toe clips, rim brakes and 105, while the SSE had proper cleats, disk brakes and Ultegra. So advantage SSE on the setup. Yet, after multiple short back to back rides, the CAAD was more fun to ride, while the SSE felt more refined, but duller. I'm no expert -- these were just my impressions.
First, as a CAAD10 owner I agree with your take on the lively and fun character of these bikes. They feel fast and make you want to ride fast. I also think the feedback you get from the road is helpful (i.e. not so muted that you can't understand the character of the road and the limits of your potential traction). It's kind of like the difference between a car with good road feel versus a car that prioritizes soft, squishy comfort, though obviously to a much lesser degree given we are talking about rigid bike frames here with very little real-world vertical travel!

My only full-carbon bike was a replacement for an aluminum frame I damaged in a crash. This is a gravel bike (Niner RLT9 --> Bombtrack Hook EXT-C frameset) and for rough-and-tumble dirt and gravel roads I do notice a more "muted" ride characteristic on the new frame. All of the same parts went from the RLT9 to the Bombtrack frameset, so it's a good comparison of apples-to-apples. I honestly didn't think I'd be able to tell any difference in terms of ride quality (similar geometries and big-fat-38mm tires at low pressure), but the carbon frameset was different. But not dramatically different. Both bikes were comfortable and highly enjoyable. And the 0.8 lbs weight savings of the full-carbon frameset (vs aluminum frame and carbon fork) and supposed compliance hasn't changed my ride speeds to any measurable degree. But yeah, the carbon bike has a slightly more muted ("smoother"?) ride quality. I can't say whether that's "better" or not (strictly personal preference).

Overall, I do think that for unsuspended bicycles (i.e. with rigid frames) people attribute more supposed "ride comfort" to rigid bike frames than is warranted given how little modern frames flex vertically under load compared to tires and seatposts (of the modern carbon variety). There are hard numbers to back this up (i.e. how much potential flex happens in different parts of the bike). I suspect that even modern carbon forks and handlebars, while providing fairly small amounts of compliance, probably provide more vertical damping than the frame of a rigid bike. So it's likely that going up one tire size (at lower pressures) would have a similar influence on ride comfort than the difference between a solid "mid-range" frame and a really expensive "high-end" frame if both were well-designed.

Finally: I think the complete "package" of a bike and its parts causes a large enough amount of variation in ride feel that it can be hard to attribute differences to the frameset (by itself) unless you are in an unusual situation where everything else on the bike is identical. I was in such an unusual situation and the differences, while noticeable, were subtle (that is to say they were far from night-and-day). Now, in my case, I had a mid-range aluminum frame (that was criticized by reviewers as being "harsh") and upgraded to a mid-range carbon frame (that reviewers said was very compliant). Despite those supposedly large differences, we are talking about subtle shades of difference in the real world if we keep everything else similar (e.g. components and geometry). I think we are talking about connoisseur differences, rather than major comfort and performance-enhancing levels of difference among decent quality framesets (whether mid-range or high end). That's my take from the closest thing to a controlled experiment that I have!

EDIT: All of this presupposes rigid framesets. I realize that some modern road frames have various forms of micro-suspension in either the seattube area or headset area that likely make a bigger difference in compliance. I don't personally want anything that complicated on my own road framesets, but again, that's personal preference.
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Old 09-15-20, 02:50 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
You think that thin aluminum is more robust and repairs more easily than CF? Okay.
no, but minor crashes are less likely to do damage and it's a lot cheaper to toss an aluminum frame away.
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Old 09-15-20, 02:52 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
If you're not fast, then it's the ONLY metric.
That's quite a basic statement. People can enjoy a bike outside of how it looks; even if they aren't fast.
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Old 09-15-20, 02:59 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Princess_Allez
no, but minor crashes are less likely to do damage...
Oh?

Originally Posted by Princess_Allez
...and it's a lot cheaper to toss an aluminum frame away.
Repairing minor damage on a CF is often much less expensive than buying an Allez Sprint or CAAD frame.
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Old 09-15-20, 03:13 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Repairing minor damage on a CF is often much less expensive than buying an Allez Sprint or CAAD frame.
I paid $300 to fix the damage to the chainstay on my CF bike.
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