obrentharris 

A friend of mine is restoring this old Cinelli. We would appreciate any information you can provide regarding its provenance.





The biggest mystery to us is the fork. The threaded steerer tube is considerably longer than needed for a conventional headset and quill stem. Did Cinelli ever make bikes with clamp-style stems? Is this a Model B fork? Perhaps this is not the original fork. In that case, is there any way to determine whether this is an SC or a Model B?






Avert your eyes if you faint at the sight of bicycle butchery!
This frame will need a new seat tube. Evidently a previous owner attempted to remove a stuck seatpost with a poorly aligned lathe.




A few more photos.











I'm up against the 10 photo limit; will include a couple more photos in the next post.
Brent

niliraga 

this is some form of "ruin porn" and I'm loving it.

obrentharris 

A couple more photos.







Any assistance with this mystery would be greatly appreciated.
Brent

bikingshearer 

Interesting find. Take a look at the Cinelli timeline on the Velo Retro website - it is the best collection of model and dating ID info I know of. All of the below is derived from Velo Retro.

That frame has "wolf ear" head lugs, which the timeline says means says it is from 1960 or earlier. But it appears not to have spring hole for the Campy Sport POS RD in the right rear dropout above the derailleur hole. Those holes did not disappear until until the mid-1960s, In theory, if it has wolf ear lugs, it should have a Campy Sport hole, but this one appears not to. There is what looks like a small circular indentation in that locale in the photo that could possibly be a plugged up hole. If so, there is no contradiction In any event, the headlugs argue for a frame from 1960 or earlier.

If that date is correct, then you probably do not have an SC because it does not have oil and drain ports in the BB hanger. If I am reading VR correctly, only SCs had these. If that is correct, this frame is probably a Model B, That fork certainly would be consistent with that.

The wild card is the Mod. Riviera. I know virtual nothing about them and I think few if any came to the US, (someone with better knowledge than mine can confirm or set me straight on this) so I am cheerfully ignoring the Riviera as a possibility.

So put me in the "it's a Model B" camp unless and until better evidence comes along. You know, like someone with actual first-hand knowledge or has spoken to Cino's ghost at a recent seance . . . ..

Oh, about that seat tube . . . .

Lascauxcaveman 

And hang that thing on a wall somewhere

obrentharris 

I should have mentioned that the owner of this frame is a framebuilder with over 40 years of experience, so replacing a seat tube is not beyond him.
Brent

juvela

-----

this is the first one can recall seeing with the 1010/A ends set

it will definitely have the 74mm shell at this date

when the seat tube is replaced the builder will needs be add the sleeve to make it correct

certainly appears to be a Model B from here

members martl & clubman can share their experience...


-----

Lascauxcaveman 

Oh, in that case it's just another fun Saturday afternoon. If you're around for the before and after, then post some pics.

clubman 

It looks very early with the wrong fork. That's all I got.
I didn't even see the hole in the seat tube.

tricky 

A builder with 40 years of experience in the bay area? Can't be many of those around.

merziac

Paging zephyrblau

Tx Jerry

iab

What is the height of the head badge? Center to center on badge screws?

iab

Shape of lozenge on downtube. The shape of the head lugs, placement of serial number makes me think 1951-1955.

obrentharris 

Thanks!
I think the headbadge is just under 55mm but I'll double check tomorrow.
Brent

obrentharris 

Thank you!

Inspired by your comment I went searching online for photos of Cinelli forks. Sure enough, I couldn't find another Cinelli fork matching this one. So it's probably safe to lay to rest the idea that this is the original fork.
Brent

obrentharris 

Thanks again!
Did you mean the 1010/1 dropouts?
Brent

merziac

Where the old style smaller oval surround Cinelli was.

That would indicate fork is original with same paint remnants.

Were the steerer tubes that much longer to accommodate the old clip style HS?

merziac

Here's a very similar BB and S/N, no drain or oil port.

https://steel-vintage.com/cinelli-mo...e-1960s-detail

juvela

-----

Yes, thank you.

That which passeth for me "braine" striketh once again.




---

question for the Cino experts:

mention was made earlier in thread of the Riviera model

the only examples of this model have seen were the contract built ones done by Garlatti of Parma

have always wondered if there were actual Cino produced Rivieras

-----

merziac

Merz, Litton and Sadoff come to mind.

obrentharris 

You've accumulated so much information in there over the years, it's no wonder a wrong bit comes tumbling out unbidden once in a while!

Brent

francophile 

My feeble eyes can't tell, is that a crack off bottom of the seat tube split?

obrentharris 

I've made the image lighter here . Looks more like the slot fell victim to an errant hacksaw or sawzall, probably wielded by the same previous owner in an attempt to remove the seatpost.



Brent

obrentharris 

Badge height is 56.22mm. Distance between hole centers, measured in a straight line, is 32.74mm.
Brent

iab

The large one. Of course there are exceptions, but generally stopped being used in the late 50s. If the fork belongs to the bike, its a B. If it doesn't, could be an SC. With the lozenge decal, many Bs had internal cable routing. But of course, there were ones that didn't. Also, Bs tended (again, not always) had braze on pump pegs back in the 50s. Fork crown is from a later B, 60s, if it is a B. Bottom line, I have no friggin clue whether it is a B or SC.

Where is the bike from? Maybe you could check the serial number against Spence Wolfe's registry.